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Post by vespasco on Dec 1, 2014 19:09:42 GMT
heres a few results i came up with after playing with variables.... Ive ran out of time to investigate further (while im on a PC) but heres so far... Using your same file No.37... Trying to match GSF to MD= I also quickly tried an old file i found of my pinasco so i tried that too, in the same way, same settings as yours sime....trying to achieve some kind of constant....
******************************** using same values as gsf dyno results: filter 15 - (lowest, most accurate apparently) -------------------------------------------------- MD = (filter15) 8.4PS @ 6483rpm 9.6Nm @ 5310rpm
GSF = 9.83PS @ 6556.48rpm 12.47Nm @ 5169.05 ---------------------------------------------------- just by changing CW from 0.5 to 0.8 =
MD=(filter15) 8.5PS @ 6483rpm 9.7Nm @ 5310rpm
11.5PS @ 6556 13.59Nm @ 5185rpm ------------------------------------------------------ Heres the interesting bit.....
* Adding an extra 100kg!! to MD =, keeping GSF and other settings on MD (to Cw 0.8, 0.8)
MD = (filter15) 11.8PS @ 6483rpm 13.5Nm @ 5310rpm
MD = (filter 17) 11.5PS @ 6547rpm 13.3Nm @ 5292rpm
GSF = (250kg, 0.8, 0.8) 11.51PS @ 6886rpm 13.75Nm @ 5187 --------------------------------------------------------
Frontal area makes not much difference at all on MD Use 0.8 as a constant --------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- i also got very very similar readings on both GSF and MD when adding an extra 100kg on an old file i have of my pinasco. Now my PC time is finished..! so get ready for some more edited posts!! hahaha! I need more time to check some more files from other scoots.... if any one wants to send me a small file to have a play with, please do. PM me.
got to dash..................
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Post by sime66 on Dec 2, 2014 3:45:10 GMT
Luvvly Jubbly! – just got up in the night, as blokes of a certain age do, and it came to me as I was dropping off again, so I’m going to write this down quickly. I have sussed a scientific way of getting rid of high speed/revs results in GSF output graphs, and it’s been staring me in the face. Once you said that was why you didn’t like my GSF results it was quite simple. As I had no Internet I was going through GSF tutorial last night, and during sleep the brain must have made the final connection - no need to trim the wav any more at all: **Use the GPS speed recorded during the run, to calculate (using my lovely gear/speed/rev calculator, for example) the maximum revs for the run. Put the maximum revs in the box on the front settings page. Tick the box “Plot Graphs Only to Vmax”. And Sally’s your Auntie – no more embarrassing 7,400rpm!!** Rpm – Power PS and torque: 9.62PS/6526rpm – 12.1Nm/5057rpm – Max: 6996rpm (= 7.08kW) Cross-check the speed..........= 78.6kph:
(no point plotting against revs; it;s a straight line) What version of GSF are you using? I’ve got V01.19, the tutorial is written around V01.14 – the front panels are different; I noticed when trying to suss out Rolling Friction Coefficient, which doesn't appear in V01.14 or in the tutorial. Let’s make sure you have V0.019. (Ignore the input values; it's just a screenshot showing the boxes have changed). Re: adding 100kg to MD: If it works then fair enough, but inputting incorrect data is a less desirable way of getting the results than adjusting variables. I’ll say no more until that theory/method has had a few more tests, it just doesn’t feel right adding 100kg with no explanation for it, other than it giving the result we need; I wish we’d found a more convincing method. As 50% of those contributing to this thread are unable to verify, we will have to rely on the remaining 50% (ie you) to tidy up the method in MD. I was hoping we’d find something like a decimal point in the wrong place, or a variable needing adjusting, rather than inputting 350kg for 250kg, which seems to suggest to me that something is wrong somewhere else, but if it works…………… I’ve done a screenshot of your post above with the results of your experimenting; I’ll go through them in the later morning. I’ve no way of doing the 100kg magic in MD though. Without getting bogged down with your numbers, and before doing that, which I will, I’ll just repeat why, and show you why I kept to the default Cd value of 0.5 in GSF (it is the default and it give a perfect result in kw): Red (Cd @ 0.8) Makes the results too high (8.4kW):As a footnote, while my bleedin’ computer is rebooting mid-post (still need to fix that; next job when this is done is replacing the PSU, which has been sitting on my desk since the end of last week), I’ve got to say that so far, portability aside, I’m finding my experience in GSF seems to be smoother than yours in MD – from the point of view of playing with wav, flexibility of output data, and believability of results. I’m still inclined to use the free version for measuring and then GSF for playing with data. The thread is "MicroDyno"; I know it's unequal to compare an App with PC software, but if it isn't the best way to do the job we should say so. - I'll still be happy to be convinced otherwise........... Now we need more data - get on your bike!!
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Post by pxguru on Dec 2, 2014 6:56:56 GMT
You guys have been pretty busy I downloaded MD on my phone. Can you summerise what I need to know and I'll give it a run when its not raining!
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Post by sime66 on Dec 2, 2014 7:31:20 GMT
I think we're just about ready to do that; I have to go out for a bit but I'll do it when I return. Are you using the Free or Full version of MD? Have you got GSF too? I ask because the result-tweaking in MD is still a bit sketchy, but I'm happy with the method and results in GSF for that part. As I said above, measuring in Free-MD and processing in GSF is my favoured method at present. More 'what-to-do' detail in a while.....
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Post by pxguru on Dec 2, 2014 8:36:45 GMT
I just paid the £6.24 so I would hope its the full version! I'll do a run later and get a sample to play with and we can take it from there
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Post by sime66 on Dec 2, 2014 8:57:41 GMT
.....that's handy, the second part of MD could do with another look to tidy it. On Mob, so more later.....
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Post by sime66 on Dec 2, 2014 9:48:27 GMT
Here we go then, I’ll keep the use of the App seperarate to the method on the road for now, so this first bit is the App; then I’ll do a bit of road stuff, and vespasco can do the wav tweaking bit at the end; I’ve been doing that final bit in GSF. Part One - Using The App:(For Tutorial see also www.siphorsepowerdyno.de/siphorsepowerdyno_en/Tutorial/tutorial.html ) Front Settings Screen:
Probably self-explanatory if you’ve followed the thread, but some pointers that we settled on (use the link to tutorial above too; a lot of this is repeating what's there: Gear ratio - include tyre in calcs Cw 0.8 for a big chap, muffs, mirrors, rack etc., seems to work well. Area @ 0.8 (same reasons as above) Temp and pressure – however suits you; there is a link in the app, but I used my normal Online weather stuff before each test session. Record Screen:Use or dismiss weather link option:
Make sure GPS is on, and wait for confirmation message before recording:
Start recording by tapping mic icon (screen locks itself):
End recording (swipe screen to unlock before tapping mic icon):
You will be doing several rides before any editing, so at the end of each recording use the icon at top of screen for menu, and select save; it’s the same menu for trimming, but we aint there yet:
Nearly there………. When you save the files they go here, a directory for WAV and a directory for GPS (if you are sharing, this is where you’ll find them and where to put them): In WAV directory, you’ll find your files named by date and time – here you will also see my corresponding trimmed files, but we’ll come to that later:
I’ll do things we’ve learned about the test ride method next, but one part at a time for now. (vespasco; consider this a draft – to be added to, corrected etc – we have to have a start point…….)
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Post by sime66 on Dec 2, 2014 10:08:40 GMT
Quick summary of things we've learned on the road:
· Stay in low revs in 1st and 2nd, going into 3rd as low as possible - 2,000rpm max. · At end of run keep at top revs in 3rd for at least a couple of seconds more, before slowing or changing up - there's no rush because all the unwanted guff before and after the wav you want is trimmed; it just makes the untrimmed files bigger. · There is a 30sec max wav length in MD; most of mine are 15-20 seconds after trimming, and the distance for them is approaching 200M, so you need a good, straight, flat, sheltered road at least 400-500M long min. · Keep phone out of airstream, near to exhaust. So far I’ve tried in backpack, and in bumbag – definitely behind you though, protected from wind, but not so sound-proofed it doesn’t pick up engine. · Use your Rev counter to double-check. You’ve probably got rev counter, so one thing we haven’t done yet, on my mild mannered baby is test rpm against MD rpm. I think analogue speedo is irrelevant and GPS speedo will be the same in the app and with GPS speedo, but haven’t checked that either.
(vespasco; consider this a draft, just writing thoughts down – to be added to, corrected etc – we have to have a start point…….)
For the last part, we've divided our labours between GSF and MD; vespasco has been working the wavs in MD, so he is your man for that bit. If not, I can do a How-to for it, but it won't have the fine detail of wav trimming that vespasco has been discovering. I can do a GSF one later if required.
That's me for now.
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Post by vespasco on Dec 2, 2014 12:18:28 GMT
Glad to hear someone else is reading this! MicroDyno so far,,, pretty much as sime6 has stated above.
Ive only used 2 x files to compare so its early stages....
Inputs; Weight - by all means start with your proper, approx weight, it should be quite easy to work out, including fuel, oil, toolbox contents etc....BUT so far ive found you will need to, for whatever reason, ADD 100kg TO YOUR TOTAL WEIGHT!!!?? More on that as we progress.....
Cw - 0.8 seems to be about right. - altering the Cw value in GSF seems to have more of an effect on results... In MD it has less effect.
Front area also seems about right @ 0.8m^2 - altering this value slightly has little/no effect onresults.
Air pressure and Temp speaks for themselves and dont have a huge impact on results.
Gear ratio and tyre size should speak for itself too ... Ignore any of my previous concerns that this was not right. Use the in-App gear calculator
If you want to be accurate youll need to measure your tyre circumference, although, again, +\- 30mm has just a 'little' effect on final results.
Getting a clean recording, starting off below 4100rpm is a must for MD, with, ideally, a minimum 10 second recording needed. See tips ^^^^ on how to do that.... Try wrapping the phone in a sock or something to keep wind noise down if its a problem. If you want to be as accurate as possible try taking recordings from the same road, same conditions etc but going once up the road, once down.... Or better TAKE A FEW RECORDINGS, as youll no doubt need to find your 'cleanest' recording... The better recording you have the more accurate your results will be.
Editing the WAV for file in MD..... Make sure to use the correct wave/curve... Likely ending around 7000rpm -ish, or yours Guruji may be a lot higher?!?!
The tricky bit, especially on a small screen phone is to 'scrub' the unwanted signals from the spectrum graph, especially if you have bumbly,fumbly fat fingers! You need to get rid of as many of the white line 'steps' to make the white line as smooth as possible...this will result in more accurate readings. This is worth spending some time doing, which im sure youll end up doing...So, SMOOTH OUT THOSE 'WHITE STEPS'.... AS MUCH AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. There is a 'snap to curve feature' which is ok to use but you still need to erase any/ as many as possible white steps for an accurate result (and a smoother, more realistic looking curve)!!! A small step in the white line can produce quite a dip in the final curve, althouh the final figures should still be pretty close.
Once in the results you can re-adjust values (Weight, Cw, etc) in settings to compare the final power curve with different settings, without going back to the start. You can also adjust the filter in the final results too...
Filter length - i havent fully understood the filter (Golay and his filters eh!) but from what weve learnt, keep it as low as possible, ie, 15.... This will likely give a 'wavy' curve but will give more accurate results of PS and Nm. You can adjust the filter, just 1 step at a time, you will find for eg that filter set to 15 will give (x) result, filter at 16 will be almost the same, filter @ 17 may produce similar results but you may notice more of a jump...best keep it as low as possible and use it for fine tuning of the braphs curve.
PM me your email address guruji and ill send you the WAV files (trimmed and untrimmed) weve been working on, so you can get a feel for it.
***Adding 100kg to total weight seems like a bodge but maybe its the software thats wrong?? So far, with only 2 files to compare, adding an extra 100kg in MD compares very nicely to the GSF with the same settings etc.
If the app is not to your liking, you could always record your motor on your phone, saved as a WAV file, or converted to a WAV file. (Try the popular and free 'Audacity' Windows PC software for this. Save at a minimum 41,000Khz sample rate). Then you dont even need MD at all!
Try using the phone/tablet in landscape mode too! Much easier.
Any input/tips on how to actually interpretate dyno graphs welcomed!!!
If pxguru ji also comes up with comparable results with an extra 100kg in MD then we could be onto something!!?
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Post by sime66 on Dec 2, 2014 13:10:47 GMT
Yes good to have another scooter and another brain on the job and adding to the data; we ain’t done a bad job between just the two of us so far though. MD is definitely helpful for recording; I wouldn’t change that for anything else – with the GPS and the tidy wav saving and viewing, AND I’m sure when we’ve got on top of it, it will be good to edit for the results too. (Then Stefan can have my £6). I take your point about it possibly being a bug in the software; hadn’t thought of that. Anyway, as you also say, it’s early days and we’ll suss it; got to, so we can prove the doubters wrong! I have an open mind about it – even the 100kg thing; it’s a Work in Progress. Two more lots of scooters/readings in the pipeline; look forward to it……..
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Post by henri on Dec 2, 2014 13:28:42 GMT
dont worry vespaco i'm still reading this at least ,its not just you n sime , as a aside vespaco have you still got a note of the measurements you took to get frontal area , yours is a rally yes , can i get a copy of them an if poss the length from leggys top to bottom edge of hole fork leg/stem comes out off behind horn cast , not exacts just -+5mm will do,an memorys bad today but is ya brake pedal through floor or pivoted from centre tunnel, sorry for disruptions lads ,will let ya get back to ya magickery , H
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Post by vespasco on Dec 2, 2014 14:28:02 GMT
H - i didnt actually measure the frontal area, working it out in 3D is beyond my capabilities. I took it from a website somewhere (i tried to link to it a few posts ago but lost it)! The results, for a 'scooter and rider' were 0.815m^2.. Close enough to GSF of 0.75m^2...and close enough not make any difference. There were no 'actual' measurements of the legshield but i will do that in a wjile if its stopped raining!!.... On the Rally, the rear brake is on a pivot, not through floor. Dynos: Heres a small break through on MD..... It really does make a HUGE difference if you do not eliminate every, small white step in the spectrum-o-gram!! The smoother that white line is (forget the 'snapped to' green line for a moment) the smoother your curve will be on the final graph/power curve And the more accurate your final results will be.. +\- 0.5 or better!! (PS and Nm)!!!! Using a spectrum with a few white line steps/spikes will give results +\- 5 (PS and Nm)!!!!! I cannot emphasize this enough!!!!! So ill say it again!! ALL/AS MANY AS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE WHITE LINE 'STEPS' ON SPECTRUM GRAPH NEED TO BE ELIMINATED FOR ACCURATE RESULTS!!!!!! being precise when 'scrubbing' out the white line steps on the spectrum is probably the hardest/most annoying thing in the app....this is where a better quality recording will likely have an advantage. Heres some comparitive graphs, using exact same WAV file and settings....the only difference is in the editing or 'scrubbing' out of the steps on the white line in the spectrum graph.... Heres what i hope to think is an accurate reading of an old WAV file i have from a couple of years back. (Of my pinasco 225).... First the spectrum....notice there are minimal white line steps. I spent time carefully trying eliminate all steps. On this resulting graph, the filter has little effect on the results....which i believe is a very good thing... Spectrum nicely edited here: With the resulting power curve here. Note the filter has little no effect on any final readings, giving just +\- 0.5 PS and +\- 0.5Nm: Maybe a little high PS for a pinasco 225???!! And here is the same file with a less well edited/scrubbed spectrum. Note a few small white line steps.... These are too big for accurate results! And using the above 'untidy' spectrum, here are the results.... Changing filter length now has a big affect on final results... +\-5PS and +\-5Nm !!! (Not 0.5)!! Conclusion: keep those white steps out of the equation!!!! Next: confirm that by adding an extra 100kg to MD actually gives comparable and accurate results when compared to GSF Dyno (and all others)!
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Post by vespasco on Dec 2, 2014 14:47:10 GMT
I hope this is what you mean Henri.... I measured along the line of the horncast, as per pic below, 435mm from bottom of horncast/chassis to top of chassis (not to those cheap, crappy, rusty, ill fitting Cuppini trims) !!
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Post by sime66 on Dec 2, 2014 15:32:53 GMT
Both very well made points – all clear and understood. · If you’re finding it fiddly on a tablet though, imagine how difficult that precision will be to achieve on a phone screen: (I’m under-equipped in screen-size and over-equipped with the bumbly,fumbly fat fingers!). · Reading what Stefan has written about how the App looks at the wav signals (colours) to pick the curve, achieving a stronger, cleaner signal has got to be a priority to minimize this precise tweaking being such a bugger. Some quality of recording/method testing is needed. Then there's holes to consider; bad signals or resonance interference? Also, I reckon we need a zoom function on the next MD update, and a better Undo function (in steps). (I see you slipped in a little scooter porn there too, - just revealing a little at a time; tease!)
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Post by henri on Dec 2, 2014 16:54:05 GMT
cheers vespaco , i'd remembered after the post its a pivot an a look at scooter centres repair panels confirmed it ,thanks for picky as there 1didnt have that measurement ,i hope you an sime are going to get a credit/assist from stefan as you seem to be refining his app quite nicely , an hope ya aint told him bout here as he'll link it as a "user manual" , H p.s ive some even rustyer cuppini trims ya can have if ya like , there " rare,original,genuine" all that e bay talk, 1 thing they aint is shiny/chrome anymore ,
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Post by vespasco on Dec 2, 2014 19:01:56 GMT
i like rusty! Well, i dont do shiny anyway!!... my scooter is as clean as its been for a few years!! i even wiped some of the grime off the other day, 1st time for everything !! Im not going to hold my breath waiting for an update to the app tho', or even another reply from Stefan... but, you never know, he may be watching and chime in??!!
I must say... editing the spectrum is a lot lot easier on a tablet!! until, like you suggest, a zoom function and a better Undo function are introduced.
YOu could hook up, somehow, one of those, erm, 'hook-up thingys'?! like you have in cars and modern bikes for diagnostics, - or a signal reader, to get a signal from the ignition, such as SIP speedo?... im sure its possible but i wont be going into it that far...... or some kind of usb connection....
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Post by pxguru on Dec 2, 2014 20:11:08 GMT
Was not scootering weather today. Hopefully will get a go at it tomorrow
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Post by vespasco on Dec 2, 2014 20:24:11 GMT
Was not scootering weather today. Hopefully will get a go at it tomorrow Slacker! Hahaha!!
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Post by henri on Dec 3, 2014 9:17:32 GMT
kosa ,a korean firm, do a digital tacho thats triggered from the ht lead ,bout 45 quid so loads cheaper than a sip set up, needs a dc feed tho,an dont expect the translated "destructions" to make any sense .what sort of "interface" to hook it up to ya app/tablet i havent a clue ,H
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Post by sime66 on Dec 3, 2014 9:33:16 GMT
Sun's out - any wavs, chaps?
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Post by vespasco on Dec 3, 2014 11:13:47 GMT
I still cannot bend my knee/ body to sit down without soooo much pain. It hurts standing too. And its raining here Now im the slacker!!
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Post by sime66 on Dec 3, 2014 11:22:35 GMT
There's no hurry; I was just keeping the focus. I took my computer apart early this morning to fix it, while it was quiet on here, so when it booted up afterwards I was raring to go again! It's a beautiful day here on England's foreskin, not so good this weekend though. Take it easy, and look after the body; that's far more important.
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Post by sime66 on Dec 4, 2014 6:32:57 GMT
I believe where the peak power is on the curves, relates back to what we did before with Transfer Port Timing. These results here show my peak power to be at around 6,500 rpm; I’m thinking about what we did in that previous post: vespa.proboards.com/thread/4487/cranks-thick-gaskets-squish-timings?page=2In that post pxguru said:The 120 degrees at 6000rpm in that chart refers to where maximum power is, not how high it revs. Yours could typically be max power at 4500rpm or so. Also less open transfers, means less fuel in and that means less power out and peaking too early. Acknowledging before we start that this is one set of results, and a recording method not yet perfected, is it correct thinking that this 6,500 rpm max power is an indication of my current transfer port timing? If so I’m reading that as being Transfer Port Timing at about 121°, which is pretty healthy? Or does that have to be peak power in 4th? My PX-DR180, In 3rd: 9.62PS/6526rpm – 12.1Nm/5057rpm – Max: 6996rpm (= 7.08kW) Max: 78.6kmh/6996rpm.Join in any time you like, chaps; I’m trying to catch up with you in that other post too……….. vespa.proboards.com/thread/4487/cranks-thick-gaskets-squish-timings?page=4
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Post by pxguru on Dec 4, 2014 8:21:14 GMT
Glad you mentioned this. There is a significant relationship between where the ports open and close and where the power/torque curves start and finish.
Like you can see on Vespascos curves how max power is "clipped" by the insufficient blowdown. Hits max power at 6000 (where there is enough blowdown) then doesnt increase. A few degrees here makes all the difference.
I cant post any pictures is something wrong with the site, or is it me?
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Post by sime66 on Dec 4, 2014 8:26:30 GMT
site is posting pics ok:
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Post by pxguru on Dec 4, 2014 8:38:57 GMT
You're using photobucket! I'm just trying to upload into the post. Says the forum is full. Nik, Can this be fixed?
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Post by pxguru on Dec 4, 2014 9:03:47 GMT
Here is my best looking effort from yesterday. Not as easy as it looks getting a clean run. then finding it on the wav. Need to zoom in to actually see it. The most I saw on my rev counter was 8900 but looks close enough. I guessed it was somewhere around 30bhp so thats about right too Here is another one that looks exactly right for revs but its not that powerful!! is it?
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Post by sime66 on Dec 4, 2014 9:32:33 GMT
Wow!
Can we have the wav to play with? ...Right, got the wav - thanks.To cross-check accurately, will need figures you used for: Weight: Gear Ratio: Temp & Pressure: Tyre Circumference: (assuming you've also used 0.8 & 0.8).
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Post by pxguru on Dec 4, 2014 10:37:35 GMT
Weight: 108+107+clothes+fuel+oil&tools. I just guessed at 240kg Gear Ratio: runs were all in third so on mine thats 6.604:1 Temp & Pressure: 7 degs and 1015 Tyre Circumference: 1350mm
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Post by sime66 on Dec 4, 2014 12:15:13 GMT
Interesting, I don’t want to lead you off track as yours is close to what you expected, but even with some tweaking I can’t get as high as that in GSF on first bash. I suspect its in the gear ratios; it might help me if you give primary ratio, 3rd ratio, and overall ratio, so I can double-check how to input it into settings table (might give a clue to where previous discrepancy was too). No hurry; I’m out of time this morning now. However, at present, I’m getting this, which I know is wrong, so don’t take too much notice, but I am curious why (I can get it a little higher by reducing filter to measure spikes, but it isn’t a significant amount, so this is the smooth curve): This is my working: Raw wav:Selected wav:Cleaned and curve selected:SECOND GO:I saw the little extra tail on the curve (boxed on the image above, so had a quick second go making sure to include that, but it doesn’t make much difference; it needs more time tan I’ve got now to investigate. Here’s the revised cleaned wav: Still too low; must be the settings page – I’ll have to come back to it later: Anyone reading this post; I know this final result is wrong, just don't yet know why - don't be distracted by it
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