Rally 200 modifications

[vespasco]

wow. lots for me to think about

firstly, im selling to get my money back and some more... which is why i bought it

or sell the 210 motor and replace it with a stock 125, which will then turn it back to a learner legal scooter once again

or sell, as is

now, my problem, (or rather my saviour?) is that i've moved out of my off-grid shed in a field and into a shared house, a no vespa zone, a nowhere to tinker place....basically it will mean road side tuning again.

and i just love riding the Rally. its such a comfortable low down ride.. then jumping on the PX just doesn't feel right ... it's like i'm sitting on a high chair!

[pxguru]

Another tinkerer bites the dust. maybe you could get a lock-up somewhere?

[vespasco]

"No thanks, i already got one"




Actually i have..and its 13 miles away

[vespasco]

I was going to have a tinker today. I have a problem with my kickstart mechanism, I'm sure it's the spring that pushes the kick gear cog onto the shaft. I think it's slacking, just like me lately, not bothering to do it. I don't think it's pushing the cog on enough to engage with the primary shaft and getting jammed. It's happening more now so needs sorting for sure.

So I got as far as threading on the flywheel extractor, went on fine, straight, as normal.
Wound in the bolt and expected a 'pop' as normal but I heard, like, a crunch! I got the extractor out ok but the threads inside the flywheel came away! Not all of them, just the bottom 2 or 3.
The flywheel didn't budge either.
Damn. Ok. I'll leave that for now. Again.

So, being spurred on by you guys, I concentrated on the carb.
I was going to drill out the main jet feed hole on the current si24 but ended up putting on a si26 instead, with the feed hole drilled out to 2mm
As I expected to come down a size or two after drilling out the feed hole, I started with the idle jet @ 50/140
160 BE3 142
(si26/26)
After getting it nice and hot that jetting was too lean
I upped to a 52/140
Again, too lean. When idling, the motor was sounding like it had an air leak. I checked briefly around the carb while I was swapping idle jets and it was nice and dry. But still too lean on the idle.
So I put in the largest I had, a 55/160.
Much better. After a good thrash the motor came back down to idle nicely.
It rode quite smooth too.
A little stutter around 4000rpm
Then I upped the MJ to 148, as the 142 wasn't enough either.
That was better, but it could still be a little richer.
I may jump to a 155 next, to know for sure what too rich (probably) feels like and work back.
I seem to be working backwards with the MJ at the moment but I know it's getting close.
Temps were good. Quite a bit lower than the (un-drilled) si24 in fact.

Had a GPS of 75mph today too. Only just! It still matched the SIP mkl speedo perfectly too which has now clocked up 10,000 miles without any problems.
The vespa itself has now clocked up over 20,000 miles since I rebuilt it in 2009. And rode the hell out of it ever since!

That's as far as I got.

Now I have to think how the hell I'm going to get that flywheel off. And I'll very likely need a new one as I don't want to have the same problem later on.

Anyone holding a spare 200 flywheel? (with curved fins) Not one of those straight finned ones please.

The one I have, I'm very happy with. Or I was. It's an electric starter flywheel with the large cog removed. It seems to balance out the BGM $$ clutch very well. I've rarely felt any vibrations or had bearing problems. Acceleration is pretty good already, so I don't need anything too light.
I'll weight it properly, once I get it off!

[henri]

sorry on the flywheel , but got a spring , but my moneys on burrs on the kickstart gear preventing good engagement .probs got a good 1 ,but not a job to leave for long ,or end of tree gets chewed up too .an a rally or p2 tree is not something ive got . something i want ,but got no.
a 6"/9" 2 leg puller will pop fly of no problems . H

[pxguru]

Doesn't help much now but a top tip is: when the extractor is on and tightened ready pull, give the bolt head a few whacks with a metal hammer.

Are you sure your 26 mm carb is drilled right through? Never seen anything get much over 140 with a 2 mm drilling.

[vespasco]

yeh. the flywheel is a bummer
so is the kickstart..i think the teeth will be chewed up yes because of the spring not pushing the cog on far enough

i think i have a spare tree etc, im hoping i will only need a new spring and kick cog..when i eventually get the cases split open i will see!

im aware of knocking it with a hammer...i'll try that next time..hoping not to destroy my crank. i was very dissapointed not being able to get it off normally so left it for some time to ponder.

Its drilled right the way through. i checked with a torchlight etc.
i cant feel it bogging just yet and ive got that weird plug reading thats almost white porcelain and grey electrode strap...
i also done a quick dyno, which also shows i could enrichen the MJ

Ill read back through my notes but i think i had this problem last time when i tried the si26 carb....which is what made me swap back to the smoother si24

i might get a chance today to tinker some more with the jetting, then hopefully that will be that until i get the flywheel off....£150 for a new piaggio flywheel!!!! anybody got one spare?

[pxguru]

There is still something wrong with your 26/26. Drilled to 2mm with a 150MJ should feel like the fuel pipe is straight down the venturi!

Check the 2mm hole is going right through again. Try a whole new float top assembly. Check your AC160 isn't an AC190. Maybe the brass tube from the atomiser to venturi is a bit blocked? Something is wrong with the carb. Your Pinasco will not need any more than a 135 main jet if all is good.

[vespasco]

Yeh.
I'm starting to think it's not quite right. Which I guess is why I removed it before. I had the same white plug problem.

I had a good thrash today and a tinker today too.
two more 75mph/120kmph readings
It's now jetted in with a 150 mj, 148 is ragged edge with this carb.
But I still have this white plug!

I tried a BE5 but it would not rev out
So then I started with my largest MJ, a 162 on a BE3/160
Stuttering and bogging as expected.
I only needed to give it half throttle for it to rev out so that was way too big.

Then down to 155, again stuttering around 4000rpm but i got it to rev out to 8300 in 2nd and 7800rpm in 3rd but had to play with throttle to get it there.
So, a 152mj. rev out almost clean to 8000rpm -- 60/61mph (in 3rd gear)

Now i have a 150mj, rides much smoother throughout the range, not so much 'lag' with the throttle which gives a realistic 8000rpm - 60mph, quick response but the plug..... what the f**k is going on with that carb thats causing this?
It's certainly the carb that must be dodgy as i don't get this white plug when I use the si24.

Time for the (drilled out) si24 I think. I think I may just to compare the two, the hell of it and probably end up leaving the si24 on.
Or...?
Is it something to do with the autolube passageways on the si26 carb!?

I doubled checked when I drilled out the carb and 100% drilled out fully to 2mm. All jets except the MJ are untampered with INC Dellortos.
I'm getting more convinced it's the actual carb.

I need to go back and read my notes to see why I had this problem before.
and I will this time!

[sime66]

I had a quick read back; this does all sound very familiar.
It was July 2015 that you were playing with it.
I read you drilled to 3mm! I think you decided you'd buggered it. (there's deffo something wrong) From reading quickly, when you went back to 24/24 is when you got the last good dynos.
I'll read-back through your thread better in the morning; there's not much to do on mine, but then I didn't go swanning-off over Winter when there was work to be done!
Sorry, I shouldn't be too flippant; the flywheel and kick-spring is a bit of a drag really.

[vespasco]

Yeh, I read back and it is all familiar

So its either back to the 24 , which i will drill to 2mm, or a new 26mm, which this one was!
£70 for a spaco or £80 for a pinasco racing... question is... ah sod, I just made up my mind, I'll save my money and I'll drill out the 24mm and put that back on. I know that works. And £80 is at least another 2 weeks in India.

Winter? What's that?
I bet it's better in NZ

[vespasco]

yeh cheers sime. i did see that but decided it's a gamble i don't want to get involved in. I'd rather put money into a new one.
Or better save it for a monsoon month.

[sime66]

I might......

I had a slight hunch that (for mine anyway) 1.8mm might have been better to try first. Even if I was right, it probably wouldn't apply to you, but worth a mention before you go drilling another carb; maybe work up - you probably did before, but ended up too big.

[vespasco]

Funny that, I was looking all over for my box of drill bits, for a 1.8mm. That's enough difference to feed a 1.6mm main jet. I couldn't find them drills anywhere since i had a sort out and moved to a lock-up that's a little closer so I went for a 2mm hole.
Ah yeh I went too big, to find the limits. 2mm is ok, that seems pretty certain. Anything more starts creating jetting problems but may still be ok with more restrictive jetting to suit. I could not get 3mm to work with the jets I had.

[vespasco]

Feeling a little frustrated with the kickstart playing up I took the plunge and ordered a new flywheel. Then went totally mad and bought a BGM si26 too!, along with new kickcog and spring. Gulp! I need this working 100% all the time. It's what I've been used to and when it doesn't quite work, yes, it's frustrating. I need to know I can jump on it anytime without any fear of it not working.
I also bought a new slide, same as the old Rally, the same as a modern no.4 but without the air pockets on top.
I hope to at least check out another carb, hopefully this one will run ok or it's back to the stock si24.
Then I will go through that dodgy si26 that's on there at the moment, find out why it's so lean on the plug.
I will also look into repairing one of my old experimental carbs with something suitable, likely a rivet.

This is all mostly a note to myself!
I just need to get that flywheel off!
Any tips? I'm sure on a previous attempt the pullers tend to bend or snap the edge of the flywheel. Or was i doing it wrong?

*How about if I fit the starter ring (which I will dremel cut off the new flywheel)..that should strengthen it a bit more.

Something like this? or bigger?

www.screwfix.com/p/hilka-pro-craft-reversible-gear-puller-6/6696g

[sime66]

I'm going to read and reply to everything on our posts later tonight or in the morning; looks like quite a spend-up, but re starter ring.
You won't get it on with the flywheel on the engine will you?
If you think you can, and you want a starter ring - to make a 'start' (ha ha) before your stuff arrives, I have one off my 125/150 elestart flywheel = ID 180mm, to check whether it's the same.
I can slip it in the post if it helps?

[vespasco]

Very kind thanks sime but I do actually have the complete one I took off my flywheel.
I will cut the new ring off the new flywheel so its in 2 x pieces, maybe even three. It doesn't need to go on in one complete piece.
I'm hoping I'll have enough room to slip a large enough piece on, where I will use the pullers. Hopefully there will be enough room for the pullers too?

And I've just heard my parcel has been delivered although I'm not feeling as happy as I normally would because that was an expensive 5 minutes online last week.
I will inspect the new carb closely too, change the slide to the old Rally style, re-jet and go.

Then the kickstart.

I'm also toying with nudging the timing back as little as I can. It's been on ragged edge for too long and very occasionally starts pinking at certain rpm, especially if there is a problem it will be more pronounced. Nothing too excessive. But still enough to do damage. But I will do that after I fit the new carb and get that running.
Splitting the cases will also give me a chance to look at the top of the piston, to see how much it has melted away due to all this occasional pinking over the years. It was starting to get a little flat the last time I looked, last year. Maybe I should pack the plug out a little more?

[henri]

wind the puller on tight ,an then wallop centre bolt with a sharp tap from a hammer , shocks the fly off by breaking the tapers grip. the starter ring will spread the load an a good idea if re-using fly ,but as its scrap i wouldnt worry bout chipping the edge too much .H

[vespasco]

wtf! Something weird is happening

I changed the carb today, to yet another si26 (a BGM faster Flow), drilled out 1.8mm to MJ well, with enlarged cosa top on with even more holes in the needle housing (i 'll post a pic later)
the venturi is 24.9mm
Fitted with a slide , like a no.4 but without the top pockets

Anyway. I still have a white plug!!??
At idle the plug is very rich..i can sort that.
But even 1/2 throttle...the porcelain is white with a grey electrode strap..same as the previous 2? x si26 i had.
With a stock si24..it seems fine. nice plug colour.

Here's what I tried;
started with 55/160 idle
BE3 160ac and a 150 MJ
White plug

Changed to 52/140 idle and a 152 MJ
white plug

52/140 152MJ and a BE4 160ac
white plug
also hard to start when warm

as above with a 140ac
white plug

160ac BE4 158MJ 52/140
white plug

160ac BE4 150MJ 55/160
white plug

I also noticed that the carb wasn't quite fully openeing, a quick tightened of the throttle cable sorted that out, it was rather stack after the carb change.

Now 160ac, BE5, 150MJ 55/160
same

So wtf can be the cause of this?

Looking back at my notes an air trap in the fuel line could be one cause. I need to check that out.

I will try the si24, expecting a normal plug colour, just to be sure that works ok.

Then I put on a si26 and lean plug?

It's still not quite set up yet either, despite 3 hours of up and down the same road swapping jets.

It's weird, temps and seat of pants tells me that the 150MJ is on the edge.
I can feel it bogging with bigger main jets but the plug still turns out white.

I think I'll go back to the si24. Which I will drill out to 1.7mm to begin with.

I also felt a little surge when I gave it some choke at WOT. That was with MJ above 150!

With a too rich MJ the top rpm I usually achieve was very difficult to reach.
With a 150 it pulls upto WOT. But white plug.

I have changed plugs but only managed to get a few miles on it so was so difficult.

Any ideas?



*Edit
Damn! The float bowl top photos didn't save! Doh! 
But this did...
PX 200 EFL flywheel with starter cog
2.255kg
I'll update this when I cut the cog off



I'll try to take the flywheel off clean. It's all good practice

[pxguru]

That must have been a surprise. Even with only a 1.8mm drilled carb on a 150MJ should be plenty enough to flood out. When you pulled the choke out to and it should have really struggled.
When combined with your pinking issue it could be a crankcase air leak. Did you do a pressure test already?
Is your 24/24 a 1.8mm hole too?

Flywheel; Gentle pull from the outer edge, flywheel nut back on and a metal whack in the middle will pop it off.

[henri]

my thoughts aswell ,multiple carb changes n jet fiddles an no plug change ,youve got something else going on there .what i couldnt guess ,but somethings leaning you up . H

[vespasco]

but the weird thing is , with the si24, the plug is ok.

Could it be the inlet tract? I did it smooth out. Although the timing is extended only a couple of degrees.
I'm hoping I'm going to have a Doh moment and figure it out.

I bought some 6" pullers yesterday. That should get the flywheel off. I think that's difficult because of the new Pinasco crank.. With the Mec Eur crank I had it popped off and on easy.

Thanks guys. I will tackle that at the weekend

[shipscat]

i had to replace my mazz crank after the threads stripped on the flywheel side i replaced it with a pinasco it destroyed 2 fly side seals the first one i thought maybe i'd messed up refitting the case halfs it happens , split cases fit another same thing happened again seal cut exactly the same as the previous one , so i took a good look at the crank i found where the taper ends and steps up to boss where the seal runs the edge was razor sharp
the seals lasted about 150 kms then started leaking
follow pxguru's advice pressure test your engine

[vespasco]

Nice one shipscat
I will further inspect. I'm not one for slapping things together out of the box but it's possible it could have had a bad finish somewhere on the crank, causing a snag/tight fit. Although its running pretty good. No vibrations anyway.
I must say, that crank is tight overall. The clutch was a little harder to put on too.
There is zero play on the flywheel, even now, which I actually put down more to the SIP performance bearings than anything.
Thankfully I had no problems with the seals.

A pressure test would be worthwhile, good idea, although I can get a nice plug with a si24.

[pxguru]

Every time I find a leak on a pressure test it is a surprise. On my tourer the base gasket just would not hold without gasket sealer. PX200 iron barrel, not so old matching casings and Piaggio base gasket. You just never know without a test, nothing to do with engine assembling ability. If performance and reliability are important then so is the pressure test

How big is your si24/24 drilled to? This is a little strange but there is something different about yours, when compared to mine and Simes. There is some other answer that isn't the carb, a slight air leak would explain it.

[vespasco]

A quick update;

I tried to get the flywheel off again... the internal threads are stripped so it's difficult.
It's down to the Pinasco crank being very tight.

To get the cog off the new flywheel I just drilled it and it popped open
I then used that as a brace on the stuck flywheel.
Using some 3 legged 6" gear pullers it just bent the cog and broke snapped the edge of the flywheel.
I presumed those rings were cast but no, they bent quite a lot!
There was a lot of pressure on the pullers. So I tried a bit of heat and the pullers. NO go.
I tried drilling the flywheel, next to the crank, hoping to release some pressure.NO go.
I also gave it a knock with my engineering hammer each time.
I tried again and again. Each time it just broke another little bit off the edge of the flywheel.
This went on for a couple of hours.

I'm determined to not ruin my crank and bearings.

Undefeated, my next idea is to weld an old flywheel puller onto the flywheel and use that. I will tack weld at positions 12 o'clock, then 6 o'clock, then 3 o'clock etc,etc, to try and keep the heat distribution even and keeping it nice and straight.
Any thoughts/tips?

To do all that and to get access to the back of the flywheel with the pullers, I had to remove the head and raise the cylinder slightly. There's not much room to get the 3 legged pullers on.
Anyway, I did notice a potential air leak on the head! That could be that mystery solved. tfft!

I've now got to take my scooter to someone with a welder.
I hope that works as I'm not sure what to do next if it doesn't.

It hasn't budged one bit




here's some pics to cheer me up!
BGM Faster flow carb float bowl top..

[pxguru]

That is tight. A crank and flywheel that really fit together. No way would that ever sheer the woodruff key.

So difficult knowing how hard to hit the centre. Don't want to break the casing behind the main bearing or mash up your new crank. You're doing all the right things. It won't win!

[vespasco]

That's my main worry, the clutch bearing housing and the crank.

I'm going to leave the pullers on, under tension for a few days, while i'm busy with other stuff. YOu never know, the vespa fairies might pull it off for me

[shipscat]

if you can vespasco try and line up the the legs of the puller on or as close as you can to the fins on the flywheel you might just get enough purchase to pop it
on your photo you have the legs at the weakest point on the flywheel

[vespasco]

Absolutely shipscat. That was just a quick mock up for a picture.
It's just possible to get those legs close to each fin.
It was a bit tricky to hold everything in place too so sometimes the legs did move nearer the centre, as you can see.
Either way, that ain't budged in the 24hrs it's been left to the vespa fairies.
Those pullers have been left 24hrs, torqued again to even f#@kin tighter.
I gave it another heavy hammer blow today too. The pullers are still fitted and still bending the starter ring to a point where something gives but not the flywheel