Rally 200 modifications

[pxguru]

Well done Vespasco! Sounding like it is going quite fast enough now. The curve is looking very normal shaped for a decent tune now.

I doubt there is anything wrong with the plug as well. You should check it after a long WOT session sometime though. And again after a long run at cruising speed.

Post a summary of the full spec of your set up when you have time. Someone might want to copy it

[vespasco]

I tried an inline filter, very briefly,while i was measuring/experimenting with fuel flow and carb tops and fuel taps etc...(i must post the results here)!!
What i found was the small filter i had just caused the fuel to froth a bit and.... emulsify? Not good for a constant fuel supply so i ditched it before i tried it on the road.
The carb top filter didnt make a great deal of difference to the amount of fuel flow. Ive left mine in the stock si24. No worries.

Ill post every mod ive made on the motor now ive eliminated the dodgy parts i had (cases and carb) now i know its pretty much 'there'.
I know a smaller mj will get me there a little quicker/ with better response but im happy enough for now.
I also know that the sip mkll has a better top speed but feels/is slower getting there.
The sip mkl is much more fun! Traffic lights can also be fun

Thanks everyone for your input and for sharing your knowledge

[vespasco]

I keep trying to list ALL the mods ive done but keep getting dstracted but they are all written here already!

Update:

Weird....i was out n about, out of the flatlands and on the way home when i had high rev problems!
I pulled into a garage for fuel and it was dieseling

Not sure why exactly but head, carb all lookd dry and nuts were tight
I cleaned/changed the idle jet like for like. No change
A new spark plug made a little difference so i may try a B9

To get home, (i dont do AA) I ended up putting a larger main jet, a richer atomizer and unscrewing the mix screw as far as possible and lastly closed the slide a little so it didnt get a chance to suck in fuel mix at idle, i just had to remember to keep revving it at junctions...

Im suspecting a hair line crack in something, or the fuel at the last garage was ultra crap 97 along with a b8 plug (too hot)!? (I was thrashing it)
Or could it be the sealing pad in the crankcase thats 'leaking'!?


Ill be checking it all out today, first thing i will try is to swap the carb. Then the head. Then the fuel (after i filled up it wasnt quite the same, smooth runner it was)

The worst thing was, on my way to Milton Keynes, i stopped in Bedford and lost my new phone.
Not a good day

But despite the air leak? here's how it performed on the way home...



I didnt seem to burn many calories tho' !!

[henri]

thats what ya get for going to milton keynes ,i think before ripping it apart i'd drain n swap fuel for some from ya regular garage an see if it cures it . stock motors will run on junk fuel no problems but with your state of tune it might be enough to mess with it . thats a nice average speed for a thrash there , H

[sime66]

Did you find anything, or do you now suspect the new seal?
I suppose you'll keep getting this if you ride it on its limits till you break it!
You do seem to enjoy the fixing it side of scootering though.
Was your new phone on that bracket you made?
And - what's this 2% - I can't even put the bins out without tackling at least 10%, let alone go for a decent ride!

[vespasco]

Hahaha
Yes, it seems i cant ride it without trying to break it.
Racing motorbikes on dual carraigeways doesn't help.
Those Harley Ferguson riders always make me smile when i creep past them.


I found another app the other day. Another app to help me break my motor! (Car Performance)

I still suspect the new seal, although its had well over 1000miles since i rebuilt it. Most of which were on long dual carriageways at near WOT. No problems upto the other day.

The phone was on my seat, i rode off, no phone

The bracket is stillng going strong and getting well used

The 2% gradient was enough to slow me down to just under 60mph on that run above, where i was cruising at around 65 -70mph

2% - Thats like Kanchenjunga round here.


Heres some more stats i got today, i had two runs like this. To be fair, there was a slight back wind...,( 3rd gear)..

Ive alwas wondered just how quick this was! 

Doing these kind of runs makes my clutch seal going pttffffffff!!!!

Damn and blast

Another suspected clutch seal blowing ...
Next time ill use a Malossi one.

They're the only ones ive not tried as yet

[henri]

0 to 60 in 10.5 ,with a suspect seal ,not bad at all , think i'd have to drive my hack off a cliff to beat that ,none to shabby at all , H

[vespasco]

I wish I'd kept on going now, to get the 1/4 mile timing! I let my speedo read 61mph and shut down the throttle.

Its quicker than an Alfa Spyder, almost as fast as a Porsche......
(A Porsche 356B) ahem! Hahahaha

(Yeh i know, 95% of bikes on the road will do that in first gear probably).

Still, not bad for a single port Pinasco tractor with stock carb and stock gearing, sip road.

Although it is bad..... My clutch seals dont like it!

Anyone other mildly tuned, or even fully tuned vespas out there that have ever done a 0-60mph time?
Come on. Show us yours!
(I used the 'Car Performance' app)

[henri]

use to like the kawasiki 80's advert ,had a porsche n said 0-60 in 8 seconds ,kwacker 0-60 n back to 0 7.8 seconds , had a few yuppies back in the day as a despatch jockey with that 1 .i think on "German Scooter Forum" i know theres a set-up page an some guys on there list there bhp's an times , but its kraut "ps's" which are 5% lower than honest english bhp's . or theres the guy who ran 1st scoot ever at the brighton speed trials . 1/4 mile in 14.09 seconds ,terminal speed 83mph , bet ya sad ya asked now . it was a smallframe tho , H

[vespasco]

Haha. No sadness here.
I know mine is not the fastest by any means.
Still great fun checking it tho

I may just give the 1/4 mile a go for a laugh. What do you reckon....
20 seconds??

Plus im really not sure how accurate this app actually is. Although the top speed was spot on with my speedo.

Its a similar thing to the MicroDyno app...its handy to have something to compare to at a later date.

Ill compare it to the malossi 210 tomorrow. I might be a close one but I think the pinasco will be quicker off the line.

Place ya bets.....
Which motor will I blow up first!?!?


Edit:
Wait a minute... I notice on one of the runs I did, I got a 1/4 mile time! Although I c**ked up the start...

No officer, its just for fun.

[sime66]

How did the Malossi shape-up, vespasco? Did you break it? Have you got any numbers to compare? Or were you playing with the Rally engine.

[vespasco]

I didnt get the chance in the end but still plan to asap

I stripped the motor down ready for new seals instead, after hours of trying/praying/hoping it was just the carb/head/loose bolts that were leaking.

I need to compare on the same day really as there was a back wind when i done those runs above

Plus i had an air leak on my motor at the time. Which may have even made it a little leaner/faster!

We shall see

[pxguru]

I downloaded this app but it doesnt work on my phone with the screen locked. As soon as the screen times out the app stops. Same on yours?

[vespasco]

Nope
But a way around would be to go to something like:
settings-display-screen timeout - set to 30mins/ never.
Set it back when youre done

[vespasco]

The motor is back together with new Malossi crank seals.
Hopefully these will withstand the spanking i plan to give it later on

I had 100+ mile run today at no more than 40mph! (Pat on the back for me)
Then i realised i could do an mpg test similar to Piaggio

If memory serves me right, its something like:
30 mile journey - 15 miles there, 15 miles back
at a constant 37mph sitting upright on a non windy day.
Giving mpg

I topped the tank up. To nearly full, as it was my usual 5 litre top up.
Ended up riding for 42.2 miles at no more than 40mph, trying my best to keep it at 37mph.
I topped the tank up again (to full to the brim this time as it was exactly 3 litres.

Giving 64mpg

Tbh, i was expecting a little more than that at those speeds
I remember my previous pinasco set up, pre-porting, used to do 60+ mpg too.
I think the stock px200 does 62mpg, so im happy with that.


So far so good

I found this today (for px200) too but dont know if these are official figures or by the reviewer.....



From scooterreview.com

*Another edit... When i topped up with fuel there was a biker in front of me in the queue, chatting to this guy.... He said,  ".....its the fastest production bike on the road at the moment. 0 - 60 in 2.something (i didnt quite hear) seconds" !! 
How we all laughed when i told him my vespa takes 11 seconds! 
The bike? A black one. (I dont know)
(He said he used to own a Lambretta in the 60s)

[henri]

gsxr1100 ,maybe or the hayabusha derivative , or a honda cbr1100 "blackbird" , or maybe just bullsh*t .like emisions tests they fudge the figures .
an the review saying "not especially suited to commuter use" ,a p200, makes me think the guy was bias . ok figures for your scoot tho, must be running fairly efficiently to still get over 60mpg .are ya going to repeat at 60mph . H

[sime66]

Looking forward to reports of riding like you wanna – without breaking it, but glad you're on the mend again anyway.
I always log my fuel consumption, so I'll pick out a few recent longer runs (with tent etc.):
Builth Wells – 500miles – 63mpg (lots of congestion – Bristol).
Isle of Wight – 400 miles – 56mpg (lots of congestion).
'Tour of Cornwall' – 250 miles – 71mpg (no luggage – lots of dual carriageway, but not high speed).
Lands End – 180 miles – 75mpg (no luggage – lots of dual carriageway, but not high speed).
Weston-Super-Mare – 235 miles – 67mpg.
Tour of Britain – 250miles – 88mpg (no luggage – lots of dual carriageway, but not high speed).
Run to the Riviera – 200 miles – 61mpg (over Dartmoor)
My three-month averages, with all the town riding and local stops, generally come out just under 60mpg.
I downloaded your new app., but it'll be a while before I get to test it - even if my new baby will be worth a comparison (won't bother with 'Old-Faithful') .....................

[vespasco]

Nice mpg!
And some good runs too

My bench mark for my Rally with a stock 200 motor, doing high rpm/60mph for around an hour on dual carriageways, with luggage, needs at least 5 litres of fuel.

With the malossi PX i have i can watch the fuel gauge go slowly down @ WOT :0
Glad i dont have a fuel gauge to sit and watch on the rally!

Im also sticking to the si24, in an effort to give a few more mpg

[vespasco]

i had another little ride out today.
it didnt sound 'quite' right and the temps were 20' above 'normal' AND it was as lot cooler outside so I was expecting around 10'c lower readings.
Yet it still performed almost the same. Just didn't sound right.
Having that cht gauge really does help, massively.
If that sensor ring was on a stud for eg, I truely believe it wouldn't have picked it up so soon. if at all.

Feel the force - and don't rely on technology for everything.

When i got home i let it cool down, got the torch out and looked for a something???
Low and behold, there were signs of oil on the cases, near the cylinder!
I could only see/smell that it was gear oil coming from the cases. No other signs of leaks anywhere. no fuel.
I re-torqued everything, it was due to be done anyway, i just done it too late. The flywheel felt a little slack. The head nuts were ok but i gave them a bit more. (Again, i never rely on my torque wrench to tell me if the nuts done to a certain Nm but do rely on it to torque them all the same). (Probably why my fly nut was loose! haha!)

After that, the motor sounded better already. temps were down by a huge amount.
Here's the latest dyno and not a lot has changed since the last rebuild....



i cant recall stealing any horses but I ended up with more!


On a slightly different topic....

I was half way through an experiment (jetting, mixers, etc) when a friend came to visit. A friend who may want to buy my px malossi!
RACE! RACE! RACE! RAAAACCCCCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

Rally 200 c/w Pinasco 224 - raised exhaust port, sip road exhaust, si24, stock gears
vs
PX125 c/w Malossi 210 - PM Evo expansion pipe, si 24 auto-lube, T5 forth gear.....

It's just about neck and neck in every gear but I 'just' have the edge, especially in 4th but he was not that far behind at all. I guess its the T5 forth that makes that difference.

He did notice, as it was his first go with a Malossi, that it lacked in mid range 4th, going 55-ish, even although i told him to thrash it in 3rd and quick change to 4th.
there was a very slight side/head wind and slight upwards incline. He struggled to get out of that zone until he hit the flat, whereas I had no problem.
On the way back he really gunned it and our motors were almost in perfect harmony, neck for neck, gear for gear until he maxed out at in 4th.
his speedo reading - "it was off the clock/75mph",
My speedo reading, at the same speed, when i was beside him, 68mph! Then I waved goodbye and opened up the little i had spare.
Then p*shed all over him again at the roundabout from a standing start but i put that down to his riding rather than the motors.
So we tried again from a standing start somewhere a bit more desserted,
I told him to really thrash the straw out of it in every gear this time.
we were neck and neck until he missed 4th gear and i flew past him.
Then we went home!

Makes me appreciate just how good those Malossi kits are considering all the work i've done to my pinasco recently.
But it might be a different story if we swapped pipes.

But then again, I'd still have the Pinasco any day, as all i have to do is put it in 4th gear and ride it. In town or on motorways. (i was cruising at 20mph uphill in 4th earlier today)! hahah!
And it was like that before i raised the exhaust port too, with an almost identical set-up. Only this time its a little more powerful all round!

[vespasco]

Heres the progress
Grey is new cases just built
Bright blue is a month later
Dark blue is today
Green is Malossi (3 months ago)

[sime66]

It'll end in tears! - Something's gonna break.
Sounds like fun, and good numbers; I've sent back GSF for your WAV, but won't post it so as not to confuse the issue - Numbers very similar - NICE! 

[pxguru]

Some nice curves there now. Cold temperature can make it run hotter as the air is more dense, possibly. looks like its going just fine all the same

That Malossi could easy be made to be quicker top end than your Pinasco! It will never have the mid range pull.....or bottom end pull for that matter but with the correct port timing it could be faster flat out.
Just need to sort out the port timing. No big money required just machine work.

[vespasco]

Im used to colder weather giving colder readings.
I can only put the high temps and the now higher MD readings down to the retorque.

Im not so experinced with the malossi and have not tinkered with it toooo much, just got it running nice and smooth upto WOT.
Do you think the initial curve/low/mid range is worth trying to tinker with? Is it possible to gain much more just by re-jetting etc?
Im feeling much more confident with trying different atomizers etc

I wouldnt be suprised if the malossi was just bolted on aswell! (Ie, not ported) Ive never investigated as its running ok now (and im hoping to sell it asap).
Im not sure what figures to expect if it was just bolted on?


The numbers look more impressive but they don't mean a lot. Im happy with that curved table top like torque curve

[vespasco]

update

i went for a spin today, to london/surrey and for once tried to stay off the motorways but found the A505 just as boring
although, on the way home i spotted a sign for M11 and just went on it automatically, then realised i still needed to be on the A505, so went up it for a few miles and came back down it for a few more miles, so i could get back on the right road DOh!...i didn't fancy going through Cambridge, it would take ages

i tried 3 different garages for 2T oil before i left... found some in the 4th

on the way there, the garage i stopped at had ran out of premium fuel... (bloody bikers again - using all my fuel)!!
i searched google maps for next nearest petrol station....10 miles away... i had less than a thumbs width of fuel in the bottom of the tank so cruised at less than 40mph, (you see, i can do it)!! I got over taken by loads of bikers and everything else..... it reminded me of my vespa 90 i used to ride everywhere!!!
the next garage i was heading for was being demolished/refurbed so out of action.
so i found the next nearest garage, again no premium fuel!! ...next one... 2.7 miles away.... i made it there and it sold premium fuel!! yeh!!! but there was a tanker just pulled up and the forecourt was being coned off.... i rode straight up to the pumps...the cashier was shocked...the tanker driver saw my scooter and said "i love Rallies".... and let me fill up! tfft!! (he was a scooter boy, back in the day)... i filled up with 7.6 litres of fuel.

the north circular was excellent fun...or at least, at the traffic lights was fun! there were a few embarrassed boy racers by the end of the day
40mph speed limits, so i was in with a chance of disgracing them off the line.....
the guy in his BMW 3 series had to laugh and concede when i just out done him...that was brilliant.. i gave him a blast of my horns as i passed him... he took it well i must say but he was clearly very embarrassed!!
'Gary n Tracy' in their japanese sports car must have been embarrassed too ...it was their fault,
he edged up to the line at the traffic lights and started revving and laughing and pointing...i sat with my hands on my knees waiting patiently, gave a hidden smile under my face mask and beat him fair n square.... man i laughed at them too... i say they must have been embarrassed... i never looked back to laugh at them and never saw them again.
you must remember, to those guys my totally stock looking 1974 Rally is probably just another crappy old italian shopping bike...and to beat them off the line, fair and square is a f**king great feeling (that will be censored)

No more quick starts after i got out of Lon Don and onto dual carriageway but i was, seriously @ 3/4 throttle all the way home, nothing less, with a few good blasts of WOT, with exception for fuel stops and speed limits of course...rarely under 65mph (with a gps calibrated speedo - if you want a vespa speedo reading = off the clock)... nothing exciting happens at those speeds, i mean - on the road, im too busy hanging on for dear life.... but i did manage to 'race' a couple of merc sprinters, motorcycle racing teams on their way to Snetterton , to break up the journey....
they over took me, so i went all WOT on them, keeping up with them all the way, speed wobbling every now and then but i could only manage to actually overtake them at a roundabout, they then took 12 miles to slowly catch me again, by which time I slowed down to 60mph while I overtook a truck , so i could have a look at the steam powered lorry on the back... then i realised i just missed my junction and they overtook me again! bar stewards!

I'm not a boy racer , honest, its this Rally, or the stripes, it just wants to Go Fast all the time.... because it can. (so far anyway)

Temps remained constant...no more than 300'f (149'c) @ long WOT ... (and again i forgot to have a look at my plug - too busy enjoying)

Cruising occasionally @ just under 1/4 throttle, at just under 60mph (96kmph) with beack winds/downhill/ accidently slip streaming is still not fun though, temps only rise a little but it still makes me a little nervous...i either have to sit bolt upright, knees out, elbows out.... or give it even more throttle and go a bit lairy in the fast lane again.

I love the Vespa,
it still suprises me


and my Malossi kitted px.....?  is up for sale... i will try to remember to get some more figures for that before i sell it... but i know it will handle long WOT... ive tested that already

[henri]

was up your way yesterday ,releaving bryno of a v90 project an some spares .nice guy ,with a lovely rally180, nice n shiny . er-hum . just out of interest , the malossi px , erm , how much an is it ready to ride . i promised sime i'd stop breaking scoots an just buying another one ,an fix a few , but just got the space for 1 more,maybe . H

[sime66]

Fill yer boots, H!
I enjoyed reading this first thing this morning, vespasco - good start to the week.
(We'll gloss over the fact that you went and hid for the Winter).
Sounds like she's running nice too - faaaaast and coooool.......

[vespasco]

yeh, the px malossi is mot'd and ready for a WOT run to Scotland and back if you need it to.

In case you don't quite remember...
the engine is virtually brand new,, brand new cases, malossi kit, very nice pipe, t5 4th gear, bearings and seals, proper biturbo shocks, nice rear carrier and top box, new tyres.... all receipts to prove the above....all done professionally and dyno'd....
i say new,,, only 1200+ miles of trouble free motoring since extensive rebuild... all run in and reay to ride...rise it home!!

where does bryno live? nowhere near me i thinks... (im in windmill county)

[vespasco]

* about the malossi....
I will be prepared to sell just the engine, with pipe etc as its a nice piece of kit (autolube and working)

or ......
swap for a stock 125 motor with cash adjustment

the px is a 125 chassis with 200 motor (malossi 210), registered as 200
all legally done

everything works as it should with exception to the fuel gauge... although it does actually work , it gets stuck at 1/2 full (it works from full, down to 1/2 tank, then stays at 1/2 until i fill it up again)

[henri]

milton keynes ,i remembered you'd mentioned it once on a run , an kept seeing "flatlander" names on signs on the journey .
am having transport-er difficultys at the moment ,but am interested in either full scoot or just engine . got a fresh-ish untested px 125 engine at the moment .if ya prefer rest of conversation can be done by messages . H

[pxguru]

Sounds like the Rally survived the Winter and then some.

Don't you want us to have a go at sorting the Malossi before you sell it? For all the readers who can't do 80 mph and the others who can't even pull...in 4th