EFL Gearbox in P150X Casings?

[sime66]

Chaps,

As we clarified before, there are two diameters of input shaft for the primaries on ‘P’ engines; I’ve done a little mark-up of the two (red and green) and their corresponding Gear Cluster sets:



Now, I was thinking I could put an EFL gearbox in a set of 1980 P150X casings, in the same way as I did for 1982 PX150E casings, but this time it’s not going to be so easy. These casings take the old, smaller Ø11.5mm input shaft, and it looks like that dictates which Gear Cluster sets I can use, which then dictates which output shaft sets will mesh (does it?), and so which gears I can use.

As it happens, I have full sets of both gears, so it wouldn’t be the end of the World if I couldn’t use an EFL set (It might even be a good chance to use an old set of gears), but I’m going to need to decide early before I decide what I’m going to do with the casings I have.

Questions:

1) I am stuck with the (red) Ø11.5mm input shaft bush in the casings, so does that mean I’m limited to the 12-16-20-25 (red) Gear Cluster set? Or can shafts be swapped?

2) If I am stuck with the 12-16-20-25 Gear Cluster Set, does that mean I’m also stuck with the 67x57-54-48-44 gears too?

I do have a set of those gears, they are the original P150X gear ratios (see below), and I have a non-EFL Driveshaft to go with them as well, but that wasn’t my intention really, though I can re-think it. The third question then:

3) Is there any way of using a Ø11.5mm input shaft, and still having an EFL gearbox?

**I’m particularly interested in this Rally Ø11.5mm input shaft (blue) with Ø15mm not Ø12mm bearing seat, which then would fit the 12-13-17-21 Gear Cluster set (green), which seems to solve it** – Below are the ratios I’m talking about in my table:



4) Does a 67x57-54-48-44 Gear Cluster set mesh with an EFL (57-42-38-35) Driveshaft?


So, if I can use 11171500 (the blue one) Input shaft, and put it in a 12-13-17-21 Gear Cluster set (on a rebuilt 68 Cushdrive), and use an EFL (57-42-38-35) Driveshaft I’m on my way. Or maybe it's simpler than that, and just using the right bearings will allow me to use a different Input shaft and Gear Cluster set. Or maybe the P150X Gear Cluster set meshes OK with the EFL driveshaft (though the gear ratios would need a bit of thought); can anyone advise?

It might seem like a bit of an odd question out of the blue; I’ll explain later when I’ve got myself better organised.......

[rab]

will you stop tinkering and ride the bugger lol

[sime66]

This is a different, indoor project, for the long Winter nights ahead.
The other one’s still out the front; that just needs a bit of a weekend tinker in the daylight.

[rab]

mine was a winter project 4 weeks ago i had a t5 frame sat rotten in my shed me thinking how the f am i gunna sort this then needed new floor and rear end patching up from tin worm invasion 4 weeks later im done now i need another to build this bead blaster saves me so much cash and time for the smaller parts and speeds things up so well i don't do hard labour sanding wheels headset bottoms and stuff anymore i just burn paint off blast wipe and paint lol

[pxguru]

New project eh? What happened to the new frame for old faithful?

I wouldn't use the early P150X box if you can avoid it. They were upgraded for a reason. One thing was the new gear tooth profile, which makes gear cogs not so interchangeable between models. Not sure what casings you have but the cluster shaft should match the casings. The bearings can be brought to suit. It took a few years to go from early to late a 1982/1983/1984 could be either.

Trying to use up good junk you have or building something with a purpose?

[sime66]

The casings are 1980 P150X, they’re split for cleaning later today, I’ve had a good look at them and they’re untouched and good to use (I think just one thread on clutch cover to sort), they are bare casings, and they have the smaller bushing for the old p---x input shaft. (Photos to follow – if the acorn of a project becomes something worth sharing).

I did a bit of measuring and reading last night, and it did occur to me that a newer gear cluster should fit on an older input shaft if the main bearing was different, ie an ID to suit the input shaft and an OD to suit the gear cluster. (The length of shaft and relative locations of the two bearing surfaces is almost identical; it’s just the diameter that’s different – beefed-up, which also made me wonder if the old input shaft would do).
From previous jobs and notes the bearing for the later input shaft and gear cluster is 15x42x13 (6302), so I would need 12x42x13 (I’ll check that).
The diameters, location on the shaft, and length of the surface for the roller bearings is the same: Ø11.5x12mm, so those would be the same.

I could dimension this up to show slight differences, but the graph paper shows it pretty well; I’ve marked-up the important dimensions:



If it’s just a case of using a p---x input shaft, a different bearing and everything else, including gear cluster, EFL, then I have a full set of EFL, already passed inspection, ready to go in (subject to tweaking gear ratios), and probably an interesting project. (If not I’ll just put an engine together to use up some old spares).

Reasons/answers to your questions (I almost don’t want to write this because the thread will go off on a tangent on this subject, rather than the intended topic, but here goes anyway – briefly, and not really wanting to start an open-forum debate on it):

Old faithful is surplus to requirements, but I have the fact that it is the engine on my docs, and my docs for my scooter are correct in every detail – frame and engine number for a 125. Changing the docs with a project engine would be troublesome. At present, if I sold it, Old Faithful could go back in, the paperwork would be in order, and I could use or sell The Beast.

I do not have anywhere to build scooters; all of my outside areas are shared, where I’m not even supposed to keep a vehicle, let alone work on one; I’m treading carefully when working outside and I just need one neighbour to complain, and I’ve even lost where I keep it at night and would have to keep it in a carpark or on the road, which would probably lead to the end of my scootering. If I found a frame that truly just needed an engine-swap I could do that, but with the cost of the frame, the time and money already spent on Old faithful, and the re-sale value of the finished product, I’d be working, at best, for free.

If I had a shed it might be different, but the truth of it is, with my situation as it is now, outside working is a drag, and I much more enjoy the indoor engine measuring, calcs, design and build side of it. – And the riding of course, but fiddling out the front is not a pleasure for me here, and will result in loss of the outside space I use now.

I’ve been collecting stuff like mad, and have spares of spares of spares, and I’m part-way through doing a stock-take, and turning my box room into a shed, workbench and store to keep all the mess in one room. I have too much stuff, and easily enough surplus to build an engine and still have too much stuff left over.

An indoor Winter project is something I’d quite like to have ticking over in the background, though for now I’m just assessing and earmarking parts, and cleaning these casings up; I’d like to set-aside a box of stuff that is for a specific project, and at the same time start thinking about the project itself.

Am I trying to use up good junk, or building something with a purpose?

These first few questions now will determine which it will be; it was my intention to do something fun and interesting, and maybe a bit lairy, but within the constraints of cost, and mainly using what I have. I have a Malossi 166 that needs a piston (again, photos and details later if it proves worthwhile), I have these casings, I have several EFL and non-EFL gearboxes. Apart from a clutch, crank and bearings I’m up and running. The clutch and crank would very much depend on what I do with casings and top-end, but I’d like to open it all up (those ports on Malossi 166 seem tiny after doing The Beast). I’d like to avoid that palaver of skimming the barrel, so I’d like to move some ports myself, and maybe long crank and any packer to get it all in the right place with compression and squish without any, or a minimum of, outside work. – That can all be decided before I spend any more money, and if it isn’t viable I can ditch the idea early and just put an old gearbox in these casings and think again. It’s mainly spares, the casings were £50 and the kit was £35 (needs a £75 piston though).

What do I want from the engine? – Still nippy round the lanes, still grunty to pull me up a big hill, still reliable, don’t give a monkey’s about top speeds. The purpose, if I need one and if there is any, is making a good engine from old stuff with mainly thought and work - not money, and something to have ticking over to think about over the Winter.

Do I really need three engines? – No

Do I just want to have something to think about and build anyway? – Yes.

Whatever happens, other than total failure, The Beast will be my engine for at least another year; there’s a niggle with it just now, but I don’t think anything major – just daylight time to sort it out. But it does have to come out sometime, and as this year flies by that’s looking less likely to be any time soon; I just don’t have time at the moment, but should have after Christmas; for now I’m trying to decide if my plan for a project is viable, and getting stuff set-aside for it as part of my tidying up. – And I must stop buying stuff ‘for spares’ without any real purpose!

It's my immediate intention to clean these casings up, try to decide what I'm doing with them, set some bits aside in a big box, then tidy it all away and concentrate on The Beast niggle first - but the casings are in my kitchen sink this morning and need shifting first.

[pxguru]

Sounds like a nice little project. Great idea to put un-loved parts back into good use. Just make an engine (carb, barrel, head. No hub or flywheel, is usual). I would suggest selling it and not running it (well maybe just to set the carb up, then sell it). Could easy make it out of all the parts you have already. No need to buy a 60mm crank, or much else I doubt. Just port it to rev even higher. Once you start moving transfer ports a few millimeters takes you to a whole new world.
There are conversion bearings out there for the gearbox shaft.
try to use up all what you have and just buy the minimum required.
If you make a near 20bhp 166 on here, it shouldn't be so difficult to sell

[sime66]

Glad you think it’s worthwhile, and glad the gearbox question seems solved.
There’s the first notional aim then; a 20bhp 166.

I’m all out of cleaning stuff now, but my first aim is done; it is tidied, areas requiring attention identified, photos taken, bits from spares selected and put aside, and it all boxed-up and tidied away so I can get in the mood to sort The Beast, and hopefully then have it running nicely over Winter with little need for more fiddling – that’s main aim now.

To these casings then; I think a clutch screw thread needs sorting; I have a stuck stud that I soaked overnight but didn’t want to shift this morning – I didn’t bash it about too much because the threads on the stud are still OK while it’s stuck; after several hot-Gunks, I’ve quickly Scotchbrighted all the matching surfaces – there’s a little unwanted screwdriver-prising at the bottom, but nothing too bad, and the area round the crankcase is excellent; the sealing pad is excellent (but tiny); the mating surface with cylinder is excellent (but there won’t be much of that left anyway (I’ll J.B. weld behind the flange before any cutting like I did with The Beast). The missing cylinder stud is not indicative of a problem there with stripped threads – I’ve checked it with a selector box stud and it’s fine, but I know we regard those threads as precious so I’ve left the others in place for now. The carb area and inlet are lovely. All existing studs are useable (an M7 nut passes down then easily); the selector box ones are removed. I will remove and replace the cylinder studs with proper good ones as well – much later. I’ll do the engine mounts too.

The barrel is in good nick; I’ve just gone over it with Scothbright pad and photographed it for now. There’s rubbings of barrel and piston too for later when the numbers begin; haven’t measured anything yet.

This complete EFL gearbox is my best spare; I may or may not use this one – I have options there. I’ve kept a p---x input shaft with it, which will replace the px--- input shaft, so it fits in my casings. I’ll rebuild the cush-drive when I’ve decided which EFL gears I’m using.

I had spare stators, flywheel and a 21T clutch to use; not important – I found it handy to have some sort of clutch in the engine during later stages of the build before.

I have plenty of Si20, 24, 26 carbs, filters and carb boxes (including a complete T5 with box and filter), and I have those old two PHBHs – a 26 & 28. I bleedin’ hate carbs, and I’d much rather keep to a big Si than the extra expense and messing about with the others; but that’s a long way off, so we’ll see.

I’ll either get some of H’s dummy bearings, or more likely, just rub down an old main bearing, so I can fit a crank and do some measuring. The crank is going to be the thing preventing me from doing that, so a quick discussion there will be imminent. (My first thoughts being I have to buy one – new. Maybe the 60mm crank would allow me to raise the barrel, and set the port timings with the least raising of ports, and also if I’d raised the barrel, maybe the longer crank would overcome the need for that 3mm skim I had before – Granted that thinking is before any measuring and with no experience of this barrel either). If not, a standard, good quality, new crank (for cutting) will be needed so I can start measuring.

I had a quick look at alternatives to Malossi piston; I don’t think there is an alternative. I think I’ve sussed that mine’s an ‘A’ (subject to checking clearance in barrel if it doesn’t need honing, which I think it doesn’t, but will need a tidy when I’ve finished playing with it. Malossi pistons are about £75. – That and the crank seem to be my big expenses.

I don’t want to talk about or think about exhausts; reluctantly I expect I’ll be persuaded that I have no choice other than something big and lairy; that’s a long way off anyway.

Other than photos; I think that’s it for a while – all tidied away for a few weeks for pondering, and to get The Beast tip-top again. Anyway I’m out of Gunk until more supplies arrive, and I have one can of carb cleaner left for my carb outside requiring attention.……………………..

So just the photos left to do for now:

[pxguru]

Where do I start? It is an old engine but looks to be in fine condition. Not worried about much of it. The missing barrel stud looks like the thread is gone to me. I hate barrel studs. Never ever, ever take them out is the key.
The rusted in stud is totally normal for this age of engine. Was from the days where they couldn't be bothered to zinc plate the stud (hows the main exhaust bolt? Often same story by this age). It will come out with a blowtorch and big hammer but if the thread is ok you might want to not bother but all the pry marks on the bottom of the casing are due to that stud being rusted in the flywheel side too, so better to get it out and changed for a plated one.
That barrel looks to be in better condition than that piston but saying that, if that piston is not cracked or chipped or pitted, then it would clean up ok to use. Even the marks scratched on it don't matter. Put in new rings of course.
That flywheel is too heavy. Taking the starter ring off will help but a slightly lighter one would be more suited to the general scheme.
What happened to the slightly drilled 57mm crank? I would use that. You could have put that one in the Beast.
This barrel is a better starting point than the DR. It has more potential. I am liking the secondary transfers. So much metal to cut out of that barrel to get 20 bhp but is possible and you are the man for a challenge

[sime66]

For now, I’ll just reply quickly in the same order:
I am pretty sure the barrel stud is OK; I will check again, and get a better photo of threads. I left the others alone so as to mess with these threads as little as possible, but I have had a stud in where the missing one was, and I’m pretty sure it was good. I know those threads are important and you don't rate the reliability of repairs, and I checked it before buying and when it arrived.
The Exhaust bolt hole is empty and open, undrilled and unrepaired.
Long-term I will get that rusted stud out; I had one quick go, but left it there because didn’t want to bash too hard or damage threads, which are OK for now.
Shame about the prying of the case, but it hasn’t gone far into the width of the mating surface, which is otherwise good.
I wondered how the piston was so bad and the barrel not. I also thought that, given your observations on my piston after the seize, this piston probably would have been OK if whoever decided it was knackered hadn’t made sure of it by scoring the crosses into it; I’ll get clearer photos of those deliberate marks.
Noted about the flywheel.
I have used the drilled crank in The Beast, so I’m out of cranks.
There was a used Malossi 166 kit on Ebay last night; claiming 19bhp, and with photos of his opened-up barrel – didn’t look too radical and only mentioned matching casings, not any port timing stuff, from that the 20bhp goal doesn’t sound unreasonable, and for the cost of barrel and casings I don’t mind cutting loads out! (I’ll stick a photo of it up later).

I have to rush out this morning, but this is bit is on my mind; nowhere last night could I find a 12x42x12or13mm bearing for matching the p---x input shaft with the px--- gear cluster, and I couldn’t find any mention of conversion bearings anywhere either. I’ve looked on SKF, FAG, SIP, Scootercentre and several online bearing suppliers; I’ve confirmed the size I need, but can’t find it; (max SKF = 12x37, max FAG = 12x40). Being able to use the EFL gearbox is fundamental to the tuned-job, as opposed to quick spare-parts build; I wonder if you have time to point me in the right direction to put my mind at rest, so I know for certain that gearbox is going to go in those casings?

I’m out of time this morning, so have to be brief now, but will have a few hours on it later.

[sime66]

A quick update on my rushed post above this morning, still trying to keep to order of points raised:

This is the cylinder stud hole we’re talking about; it is fine:



So is the exhaust bolt hole:



This is the piston; those are pretty deep cuts:



You mentioned liking the secondary transfers on the Malossi 166; that wrapped-round ring of transfers reminds me a little of an image you posted years ago, showing your mods to a 200 barrel with a ring of ports similar to that – I imagine that’s got to help the flow being so open and even.
This is the ‘19bph’ Malossi 166 on Ebay (just for interest); I see no work on ports within the barrel, just opening the main transfers, and matching the casings is mentioned too. I imagine we’re going to be considerably more adventurous:



Finally, and this is the main thing on my mind at the moment; I need a bearing with ID to suit p---x input shaft (12mm), and OD to suit px--- gear cluster (42mm), which is 12x42x12/13mm, and I haven’t found one:



To build that p--x inputshaft/px--- gear cluster primary, I think I need 12x42x12/13, or a different solution, because so far I can't find that bearing.

[pxguru]

Good news. That stud thread does look fine. Was dodgy in the other photos. Those casings are in good shape for their age. Unlike the piston, that now looks a bit pony. Deep those scores. Would run ok but could cause it to crack. looks like £75 wasted. Looks like it was just badly set up from the start. Probably not done many miles.

If that barrel is 19bhp it must have been fitted with a turbo A good start on the porting and the right idea but looks like they got bored half way through.

I am sure the new primary has been put in old casings before. I wonder how they did it? I have heard of a conversion bearing before. Could have been a packer or a sleeve. Thought the right bearing would be easier to find though. I did find a 10mm wide bearing that would fit. Seems like there might be the right one in China. I'm sure you will work out something.
www.roller-ball-bearing.com/sale-6179135-p0-p6-p5-p4-p2-401-p4-bearings-12-42-13mm-for-electric-machine-water-pump-agricultural-machinery.html

As its a smaller cc, with plenty of ports, it will run an even tighter squish. And that being the case, I think it should be geared for max power nearer 9,000 rpm. And then will certainly need a fat expansion pipe.

I didn't remember that the slightly drilled crank went in the Beast, thought you got a new one. As you will need a new crank for this it has to be a 60mm then. A 60mm will still handle 9,000 rpm without any issue. Might need 20/68 gearing with that.

[sime66]

Thanks for link; I confess I did find a Chinese 401/P4 last night, but rejected it thinking it would be bad news – I found it on Alibaba, which seems to be Chinese wholesale. Now you’ve come up with something similar; I’ve just spent a quick half-hour sending enquiries to several companies in China to see if they will sell/send me a minimum order or a free sample to UK – we’ll see if that yields any results, but even then, is it up to the job?

Options:
1) Chinese bearing; if I can get fewer than 1000pcs sent, and if they’re up to job.
2) This might be foolish, but what about putting a px--- input shaft on a lathe and turning the Ø13mm to Ø11.5mm?
3) The other possibility is that input shaft I highlighted in my first post; the Rally one (blue in top table), which is Ø11.5mm bush and Ø15mm bearing seat. In both of those options though, I’d have to check the Ø15mm taper to thread sits in the other casing half (by the clutch cover), without the bigger taper pushing the two halves of casing apart (I'll check that). It’s out of stock on SIP £20 (FA Italia), and €40 (OEM) on ScooterCentre, so no hurry to buy.
4) Then you’ve mentioned a sleeve/collar, which crossed my mind too, but some of these ideas worry me; it’s quite a big load there on the cush-drive; if that collar slipped **it could all get very noisy, twisted and broken.
5) Final one, and I’m almost ashamed to have though it, let alone mention it; the hole in the casings could be made to fit the bigger bush, but surely that‘s a bad idea – it would weaken the casings and might end up off-centre anyway, and **

I’m sure there’s a way, and I do intend to find one for certain before getting too carried away with this little project; I’ve got my hopes up it’s a goer now, but a strong, reliable solution to this is still a deal-breaker. Or these aren’t the casings for the job, but that wouldn’t leave much that is.

A 60mm crank would make it a Malossi 175cc 




(Some progress on Beast this lunchtime; nothing conclusive after a thorough carb strip, inspection, blow-through and rebuild; it’s back on ready to ride again and I will update that thread over the weekend, but it’s cold and wet and there’s rugby on telly tomorrow. I did not do a pressure test; I was in freezing rain/hale/sleet. Also, and I’m really clutching at straws with this one I know, but it occurred to me that I might have inadvertently re-used the suspect plug from the other morning when it wouldn’t start, - so maybe the carb still supplying properly, but erratic sparking; hence smell of fuel, so I changed that. I know that’s a bit of a cop-out, but if it’s still playing up, I can wait until time and weather allow and have a real good go at pressure tests, torques (head and crankcase), timing, gear oil, and elecs again – I don’t need to be rolling around in slushy puddles in freezing wet weather for the sake of it.) Anyway, that should be on the other thread, and so should I now…..

[sime66]

(Not to be taken too seriously; just fiddling because i was curious)....................

It being the first of many long dark Winter nights of pondering, I had a little play with the barrel – very rough, and really just to limber-up my brain to see if I’ve remembered anything we did two Winters ago (blimey, time flies).

You reckon max power at 9,000rpm, so:



…and (without inlet timing yet – though 125° BTDC gives 8° overlap, and I imagine the ATDC will increase):



Then, just quickly to get a feel for the relative positions of the ports, I measured dimensions to top of Exhaust and Transfers:

Deck to Exhaust = 35.7mm
Deck to Transfer = 47.05mm

I put those into my Port Timing Calculator, just using Deck Height as zero because I can’t measure it without a crank, I get (@ D.H. = ):

Transfer = 126.14°
Exhaust = 174.91°
Blowdown = 24.38°

So Exhaust duration has to increase by about 10°, which I make 2.15mm higher, relative to the Transfer, New height = 33.55mm) giving:

Transfer = 126.14°
Exhaust = 183.15°
Blowdown = 28.5°



Checking on Lambretta Port Timing Calculator:



That’s only top of Exhaust relative to top of Transfer, not the actual heights, because I don’t know the Deck Height yet, and it’s only from a quick measure to get a feel for it, but I get about 2.15mm on the exhaust port.

(I'm doubting it already, but will leave it there for now anyway).

Last afterthought; I think the reason I doubted it is because as max power revs increases, blowdown increases, so Exhaust port has to move more, relative to Transfer. If it had been max power revs at 7,500rpm Exhaust and Transfer would be correct, relative to each other (which is why the DR177 @7,500rpm max power didn't move). I'm definitely leaving it there, and turning my attention to sorting The Beast now (but I can't do that in the dark).

[pxguru]

A lot easier the second time round isn't it? I get all the same numbers, so you really haven't forgetten much.
With a 60mm crank the deck height is set with the base packer, therefore can be anything you like (as long as what you like is within +/- 1.5mm).
I would say 180 degrees on the exhaust is enough. Don't want too much torque escaping, which is fine if you have more than 4 gears but we don't.

Carb inlet timing is not so easy but the higher it revs the longer it should be. Can work out what to do when you get the crank. Anything that is advertised as 'race' would be less metal to cut off

[sime66]

That's good then; much more of that when bits are together for precise measuring.
180° for the Exhaust - OK; I do want my torque!
I'll have a look at cranks one evening soon to see what I can find. Good brand, 60mm race crank - check timing on it already if possible........

I had two replies from China overnight (they're 8 hours ahead); language and time barrier, but we have contact. Did you notice my options above? This evening I'm going to get the clutch-side casing out again to see if the Ø15mm is a problem at that end of the Input shaft as well; I believe that part of the casings is prone to breaking?. If the Ø15mm is a problem there then the bearing becomes all the more important, and other options (if any of them were options really) are even fewer; that's still the crucial factor for deciding if these otherwise good casings will do this job.

[sime66]

I think I’ve sussed the Input Shaft and bearing question.

My first job was to look at the casings, which confirmed that the Ø15mm would NOT sit in the casings; just simply no chance, the Ø12mm passes through exactly and there is little in-out play, and certainly no meat to open it up at all in that area, if it was even feasible in the first place. So it cannot be a Ø15mm shaft with these casings.









I was concerned about the available width for the bearing, so had a little measure; when fully in (tightened in place), there is 10mm for the bearing, BUT we know that the standard bearing is 12mm wide, and on inspection there is about 4mm in/out free play on the 121mm Input shaft. I can live with a 12 or 13mm wide bearing, but not ID15mm. The bearing sits on a Ø 23x6.5-7mm upstand/boss:









Then I looked at sleeves (I was thinking similar to the inner race bearing on the flyside of the crank). The ideal is OD15, 1.5mm thickness, giving ID12mm, and I’ve found that in mild steel and stainless steel, so with a bit of work that would be feasible.

BUT, when checking back ODs and IDs to make sure it was all going to fit, I found another input shaft, which is OD11.5mm bushing, OD15mm for the bearing, and steps down to OD12mm to go through the casings. I’ve checked the length and it’s 120mm long – BINGO!





I think this would work, so now I have three feasible solutions:

1) Chinese Bearing 12X42X13 (401/P4) - £
2) OD15mm sleeve/collar (£5-10) and 15x42x13 bearing (SKF 6302)
3) Stepped Input shaft (£20) and 15x42x13 bearing (SKF 6302)

I feel far more at ease with this now, though I need to have a really good measure/(draw) to check it all, but I think we’re in business. Obviously, if the solution is too expensive, it would be sensible to look/wait for different casings.

[pxguru]

Good work. I would give the chinese bearing a look. If they really do have a 12x42x13 then chances are it will be the easiest way. I wouldn't modify the casings. Would be such a shame if their long life came to a bitter end.

[sime66]

I think our posts crossed, and Proboards is playing up too; at least there's sensible options now.

[pxguru]

proboards still playing up.
Well that trumps everything. I would go with that shaft. As its the best way, I expect that is the way this was done before. Some kind of conversion shaft for putting a PX box in an old bucket

[sime66]

[Not sure this post is right; that bush is 18mm wide, so I think it must be for casings - need a bit of time to suss it out. Don't want to delete it, and editing is a drag whilst Proboards is messing about, but I need to have another look at this. Important thing is 'PX box in an old bucket' is do-able]

The stepped shaft was best option for sure, but then I noticed it was newer PX80 shaft dimensions too, then I noticed there are two PX80 shafts - the old option with a ID11.5mm OD14.9mm bush!



I’m pleased to have found the answer earlier, but didn’t half go round the houses to get there, and after all the palaver I found the bush had already been provided – like you said; this has all been done before many years ago (no harm done sussing it all out though):

[pxguru]

Lots of options. I think the bush is for the casings, so a 12mm shaft can fit a 15mm casing hole. Putting the bush under the bearing is no good, even cutting it down. When it gets hot the shaft will have leteral movement. No good. Stepped shaft is the way to do it.

[sime66]

Yep; agree - I had sussed it in the end; no way is that meant for under bearing but editing was being a drag - all good, stepped shaft; lovely, on to next topic...........

[sime66]

....next topics (overnight ponderings)

Just jotting some notes while film of Beast uploads to Youtube (good news on that one):
I didn’t want to start thinking about Engine#3 this morning, otherwise I wouldn’t have got out the door (again).

180° Exhaust duration by raising port 1.35mm; blowdown then 27°. Numbers still not precise, so no point going too deep into it yet.
Piston is really £45, ‘cos that price includes rings, which are £27 and I needed anyway (and includes gudgeon pin and clips); still a waste to have scored that other one though, but at least I have it for measuring.
Having checked Input shaft, I think I’d better check driveshshaft mesh and fit too; I’ll do a gearbox build/measure/check on old bearings when I have the stepped Input shaft (before buying pricey stuff).
I see the same cranks fit through p---x to px---e, so no worries there.
I was looking at crank options and timings (60mmx105 examples: Mazz race = 138/6°, Polini = 123/6°; there’s others, about £150; need to set a price limit, gather more options then thin them out).
Will px---e flywheel fit on these casings too? All same taper on cranks? (haven’t really understood different tapers yet). What weight of flywheel am I looking for (ish)?

[vespasco]

Again you're sorted now...
I had just the same problen with my Femsa Rally 200 cases and the input shaft not matching for the late type efl gearing..so many different shafts were available.... Also the brass bush and the later type silver bush can also be used...
The guy i originally gave my femsa engine to build came up with a solution... He used some everyday copper plumbing pipe, crudely sanded down to fit the cases and shaft...
That was HIS solution anyway. My solution was to go to his place and get my money back!!! What a dick! Hahaha.

[sime66]

Hello mate.
It was one of those that must have been sorted out before, but I didn’t want to get too excited about project if it was going to be a problem. Lots of head-scratching and we got there in the end.
I had a feeling you’d have an idea because, as far as I can see, Rallies have this stepped Input Shaft.
BTW; if/when you return, you’d better up your game, ‘cos E#3 is going to beast the Beast!!

[vespasco]

E#3 uh'?!!!
I need to catch up!!

[pxguru]

You won't be able to catch up to this one
If Sime sticks to the plan so far and unleashes a 166 (175) savage on the road, from all his spare parts plus, a 60mm crank, fat expansion and fastest reliable road porting that we can manage, I would think your 225 will only beat it in a two up race!

[sime66]

9,000rpm 20bhp Malossi 175cc Sreamer!

We do need to define the aims though, because the greater the ‘savagery’ of the final job on-the-road, the fewer of my spare parts will be used in it. My list of pricey parts I’ll need to buy is growing, which rather defeats the initial idea of using stuff up. However, pinning-down the plan, doing the measuring and design this Winter, and then sticking to it, is the aim – once we’ve kicked it about a bit first, which is where we’re at now, so you haven't missed much - yet.

My Input shaft will be here on Thursday, so I’ll check the gearbox is going to fit, align and mesh on the weekend; I’m just a little wary around the wider bearing and if it pushes the primary outwards. I want to know the EFL gearbox will fit as first job, fundamental to the rest of it.
Just for interest, and being a curious chap, I did also order some bearings from China (bugger the expense - you'd be amazed at the price-range of the quotes too!), so I’ll see how they look and fit, and compare the stepped input shaft option with the original shaft & 12x42x13 bearing option. I might have spare bearings to give to me chums to play with too.
In the meantime, my evenings are currently exploring 60/105mm race cranks and their inlet timings, which is interesting**, and which is another reason I’m itching to get it back out the box and measure some stuff….
With a long crank, I can use the packer to set the transfers to suit the duration (126° at present with Deck Height pretty-much zero, from the quick measurements I did), and then tweak the exhaust port to suit that. I’m not sure how you deal with squish and compression ratios with that head that has a rubber ring though; I’m sure all will become clear; I don’t want another big Lathe-Man bill as well.
Lots of thoughts, and some questions; but I don’t have to mention it all here and now.



(**Not as interesting as swanning around India though).

[pxguru]

As seen from the Beast build, the ‘savagery’ is more down to the tuning and set up than the parts purchased. I think I know what you are getting at. How do you see the list of parts so far? What is on your list that isn't on mine?

I do expect the stepped shaft to work. This does sound like what might be called a conversion piece. There is nothing like trying it though.

The race crank should just be the best offer that won't fall apart at 9,000 rpm. Really anything will do as it will be cut more anyway but the less cutting the better.

It's great how the science works isnt it? The longer the stroke the earlier the ports open, the higher it revs. Not what most people think a long stroke crank does.