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Post by sime66 on Oct 11, 2015 8:14:12 GMT
Quick question chaps, before going on to this morning's business: I've still set my ignition timing @ 19º BTDC for this engine, is that OK for starters? I've torqued my flywheel down now, so hope it is, but better to correct now before I fit engine. I've done my timing marks for 19º too. Also, at what point to I strobe? Straight away? After running in? Before trying to jet correctly? (I've put the 140mj and 55/160 idle in and refitted carb now too). Then a small technical diversion – Old Engine Benchmarks..........................(I'm taking a MicroDyno refresher course): vespa.proboards.com/thread/4548/micro-dynoI did a few runs this morning, which I will sort out better once I've remembered what I'm supposed to be doing. I only got one MD run with GPS data (four others recorded without!!), but the one I got is good enough to use; I might look at the others too, but other than too high revs at start, it is a good curve. I tried to do do a 0-60 too, but my MD road isn't long enough (and/or my old engine isn't quick enough) to get to 60mph from a standing start before a 90º bend (it needs winding up past 50-odd; only got to 55mph), so I'll have to think of another road ( I expect not to have the same problem with new engine). Here's what I've got anyway (don't laugh): Not really the purpose of the excercise, but a comparison with vespasco's beast: MicroDyno:(WAVs available by email if interested, but I'll maybe tweak them and add some dater lata; here's some graughs for a laph). GSF Front Sheet:Wav Curve:GSF Dyno Curve:GSF Result 'Old Faithful' PX180efl, 24/24 120 mj, SIP R2: 10.35ps @ 6631 rpm, 12.46Nm @ 5110rpm Max rpm: 7549 (in 3rd = 53mph):
(MicroDyno recorded max speed of 80 kph = 50mph; is that the clutch slipping?) **EDIT - Just did the others quickly; they're pretty consistent: I dug this table out too:I know the shape of the curves is more important, and I know yours has improved considerably, vespasco; do you have actual figures, or just those in the graph in 'rally 200 modifications'? (Is it still 18.7ps @ 6618 rpm, 20.16Nm @ 6156rpm)? I'm just trying to remember how to use GSF, and want to get the results I got before for mine from the old WAV, and then use the same method with WAVs recorded this morning, then use the same method for new WAVs with new engine. (I might ask you for the WAV that gave you that graph above too, but you might not have it and I might not need it; just thinking it through how I'm going to get back into it. Lots to play with to refresh my memory, not sure if anyone else will want to play with this bit, and I've got my benchmark anyway. I'll get on with engine swapping very soonish (Flat is tidy at the moment; just one shiny, complete engine on my dining table; want to enjoy the tranquility before I bring another dirty one upstairs)..................... (I'm comin' for ya!)
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Post by vespasco on Oct 11, 2015 19:45:45 GMT
Hahahaha! Brilliant! 85kmph. Easy for all of us 85mph? Theres not too many that can claim that on a road going vespa. It may only be another 10mph for me (on a good day) but im not even close... But i reckon there could be someone lurking around here who would be capable of getting a speeding ticket Watch out sime!! It might be Nm Those figures look pretty good for a basic bolt on kit, etc. Yes please do send me your MD wavs and gps. Ill send you the ones i done today, see how they compare against the GSF. I lost all my wavs but still have a few results from previous builds. The other numbers for that graph are 230kg, 22°c, 1008mbar. Ah! But i dont have the wav! I took some more dynos today funnily enough. I'll post them on my thread. Without knowing it or really meaning to, it appears that I've upped the ante Id say your timing will be ok. for now at least. You can check with a strobe as soon as its running ok and tweak it as required. Personally, i set it to where it feels right (not too sluggish) and doesnt overheat in any given situation (espcially caning it into headwinds and uphill for eg) and then measure what it is. Use that as your benchmark. 'Spot-on' 19° or 18° for eg, will not necessarily be the 'perfect' timing for your set up. It might be 18.5° for eg. Remember to rev it past at least 2000rpm when you check timing. Tips on recording your runs. If you dont have a rev counter, use your gear calc to work out what speed you would be doing in 3rd, at 3800-3900rpm. Cruise at that speed/rpm for a few seconds then turn the thottle all the way to 11. Once its picked up, hopefully very quickly, leave it there a few seconds, until your motor is screaming for mercy. Getting that constant speed/rpm just before the dynos 4100rpm (4000rpm?) starting point, makes it much easier to; A) find the beginning of the wav B) edit the wav the same as all others, by finding the exact same start point C) compare with other wavs If you haven't already, im sure you have, now is a good time to play with your nice shiny motor, i mean check it. Pop the plug out and check that everything turns, all gears engage, neutral is the right place, the hub spins freely, the clutch arm actuates, etc etc and that the piston moves up and down! Use plenty of copper grease on the swing arm bolts and exhaust bolt and when you're confident its staying in, apply more grease/anti-sheep-sheet-spray to exposed threads. Ill update my thread now I'll make a puja to Ganesh for ya!
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Post by sime66 on Oct 12, 2015 8:26:10 GMT
My GSF is about as expected, maybe a little high; got the double-hump which I'll try to eliminate in the new engine to get a nice single curve like yours. I won't honestly be competing with your numbers though! I'm happy with my MD recording and GSF results method, and can reproduce that accurately for the new engine. - with bigger numbers!! New engine all lubed-up and repeatedly checked for smooth turning, meshing, gear changing etc. I made-up a temporary clutch out of broken bits to get it all spinning together, but I'll be using the clutch and hub off the old engine, so that's gonna wait until I've got them both inside for a bit of a swap-over. The selector box will hopefully just bolt back on, but a tweak won't matter if needed. Exhaust is the same, and I'm changing the shock too. Just a matter of getting in the mood, and having the time and the weather to do it now........................... (nearly there, chaps)
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Post by pxguru on Oct 13, 2015 9:18:04 GMT
Even on my Polossi I have only ever seen 85mph (GPS calibrated SIP speedo) once and once only. Would need to do some crazy German stuff to be able get a ticket. Usually will go over 80 on the flat but it is a fully paneled standard looking scooter, so really twitchy in any wind at speed. The tweeks to get every mph over 75 are a struggle to achieve and totally pointless....which is the point Hoping it all goes well and the double hump doesn't go from the engine to you!
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Post by vespasco on Oct 13, 2015 18:25:25 GMT
Haha! Yes! Thats the point!!
I get a bit twitchy if i find myself slip streaming at 70. Not so much fun. Time to back off. Well, i couldnt go much faster if i wanted to.
Whats that coming over the hill...?
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Post by sime66 on Oct 14, 2015 10:42:02 GMT
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Post by vespasco on Oct 14, 2015 16:42:21 GMT
Oh yeh! Look at all that lovely grim! I like to see it Re clutch cover, Hows the rear tyre? Best of luck with the transplant
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Post by sime66 on Oct 15, 2015 10:24:53 GMT
It is only a very slight rub – on clutch cover and ¼ of circumference of tyre (edge of tread, not tyre wall). I took lots of photos, but there isn't much to show really. I looked at the previous build photos and it was there before, but again only very slight. I've had a bit of a read-up about causes; tyre type, inflation, deformation, load, pressure; potholes, bearings, engine bushes, splines, hub or wheel warp...... As it happens these wheels and tyres are due for replacement in another couple of hundred miles – after I've run-in the engine, so I think I'll just put hub and wheel on before fitting engine to check true-running and not fouling, and then keep an eye on it and see if it's the same on the new engine or not. I can get a new hub when I change wheels if necessary. The main engine bolt bushes on Old Failthful were particularly bad, so that may be it, and they are on the list for changing as part of that engine's jobs too. - there's loads of photos on the Flikr album, but I haven't really got time to post loads here at the moment; I'm juggling jobs and stealing time to get it all ready. More by luck than judgement, the length of the new shock is just about spot-on; getting that in the frame is tomorrow morning's job - and I have no idea how I'm going to get it in the hole and get the nut on! - I can see that being a morning of swearing coming up................ (any tip-and-tricks appreciated); I'm going to try to tie some fishing line to it and pull it into place, (or leave a torch at the top and aim from below) then prop up the bottom and try to get the nut on, after which it's just patient, fiddly tightening, but as you lot know it's very tight in there, and I've got shovels for hands. I've swapped the clutch (which was in really good condition); used same clutch spacers as I had it right after a bit of fiddling before, put new Newfren Aqua shoes on, and tightened down the hub and spun it to make sure it fits and rotates without fouling, but not torqued it down yet. I've wire-brushed and repainted my exhaust to give it a bit of a longer life; I'm pretty much ready to go: Shock on tomorrow Engine in Saturday Engine running Sunday................................... 'course it'll run...........................................
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Post by vespasco on Oct 15, 2015 16:03:42 GMT
You should be able to find and push the rubber mount bolt through the chassis hole easy enough with the complete shock attached. Then hold it there. Have the nut ready next to the hole. Drop the shock just enough so you can slide the nut over the top of the thread/hole. Twist the shock and nut to start off the thread (its restricted but just possible), keeping pressure (your finger) on top of the nut. Easier said than done i know. Meditation, meditation, meditation, thats what you need.
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Post by henri on Oct 15, 2015 16:14:03 GMT
i'm the "gibbon body plan " as in long arms , so can lie down n see shock mount hole n guide shock in ,hold it an maneuver around to get some fingers n a nut into top space ,an then rather than tryin to spin nut ,to start it spin shock .once its started its a offset ring spanner i cut in half for another job an turning it 1/4 turns at a time .still fiddly but a normal length spanners a flat a time an takes ages n much swearing n spitting . the slight rub on ya clutch case might not be present when cold ,but under heat an rotation tyres grow ,in extreme cases upto 20mm on the radius , faster the scoot hotter the tyre n higher the rotation forces .if tyres not showing much damage its not properly rubbing/pressing on case more likely its tyre bulge from cornering/deforming.all tyres are made to deform as ya lean to increase the contact point so just keep a eye on tyre wear at that point as it brushes on cover .most brush marks there are usually just in the dirt/grease build up but your cover looks grooved so i'd suspect a warped/dinged rim 1st .with new engine/shaft bearings an not too much play in hub splines its the only "usual suspect " in the frame still.H
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Post by sime66 on Oct 16, 2015 7:53:52 GMT
.....that was considerably easier than I anticipated; I'd built it up to be a drag, but it went in fine - found the hole, propped it up on a few bricks, caught the thread, and just very slowly turned the nut. I used the old nut because it is deeper than standard (I imagine to get a better grip), there is a big washer in the frame and I got a spring washer on it too with some thread sticking out the top. I'll be under the tank again to do some more wiring soonish, so I'll check on it then. This gives me all Saturday morning to do the main job that took me about two hours before, so I have plenty of time to take care with it, to be sure it's all in and connected right, and get it all ready for the Sunday fire-up. I'm not too worried about the tyre/clutch cover rub; it's more of a polish than any scoring. I've ended up reusing that same clutch cover, which I've cleaned and put some paint where the marks were, so I can have another look at it in a week or so. whether it is still doing it will narrow down the cause; I'm getting new rims and tyres anyway, and I'll get a hub if it's still suspect - other causes can only be something on other engine, which I'll then investigate when I get to do some jobs on that one. All good, chaps - and on schedule. Noted that tyres expand, but here's a quick pic of gap when all together:
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Post by swm on Oct 16, 2015 12:49:54 GMT
I recently changed my back tyre. While waiting for delivery I put on the spare and I too noticed that there wasn't as much clearance between the tyre and the clutch cover (only a few mm , 5 at most ) similar to yours. I just put this down to the different profiles of the tyres. The old tyre was a Conti twist and the spare a Schwalbe raceman. We know tyres expand when they get warmed up but I reckoned it couldn't expand that much surely ? So off for a test ride, with no probs at all. I give it some stick as well !!! I checked for any signs of rubbing but none were there so all's well. Hopefully ! Not easy to take descent pics of but here you go for comparison . Cheers.
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Post by sime66 on Oct 16, 2015 15:35:16 GMT
Good photos; thanks. Mines about 5mm too; I'm not too worried about it for now, will take another look while I'm running-in.
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Post by vespasco on Oct 16, 2015 15:37:53 GMT
5mm should be enough. Theres never much there anyway. Hope you get some sunshine sime
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Post by henri on Oct 16, 2015 16:24:07 GMT
they expand more radially from heat n centrifugal forces , with tubeless tyres the side walls stronger an doesnt deflect as much as tubed tyres under loads,so reckon like vespaco 5mils ok . just have a gaze once in a while to be sure . H
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Post by sime66 on Oct 16, 2015 16:29:27 GMT
If my wheels rubbing, my wheels spinning - ....and I'll be happy with that!!
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Post by henri on Oct 16, 2015 20:11:58 GMT
wheels turning=simes smiling , i can get onboard with that , easy goes on the engine swap , H
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Post by sime66 on Oct 17, 2015 10:48:42 GMT
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Post by djloone on Oct 17, 2015 11:06:57 GMT
Buzzing for you fella!! LOON-E
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Post by pxguru on Oct 17, 2015 11:20:52 GMT
Well done! Now the fun part
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Post by vespasco on Oct 17, 2015 11:48:30 GMT
Excellent news Dr Frankenstein
For a first time starting you didnt half rev it!
Now its time to tweak your clutch, brakes geats etc and ride off into sunset/moors/hedge
Nice one!
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Post by kidda on Oct 17, 2015 12:10:44 GMT
Brilliant m8,I'm getting out of bed to smash a engine pin out the casings,let's see what happens
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Post by sime66 on Oct 17, 2015 12:33:06 GMT
For a first time starting you didnt half rev it! ...That's mainly because I don't really know what I'm doing; the only other one I did was last year and that was a rebuild, not a new build. Actually I was surprised when it started; I was just about to abort the test-start until Sunday – I was getting on for about 10 kicks, as you see, and I was just starting to wonder if I'd need to check everything again before continuing, so when it fired-up I did what I do with the old one without thinking – as soon as that one starts up I blip the throttle and push the choke in. I did let the revs settle before mounting the beast and slipping it into 1st, but then the front lifted up, and off she went with me hanging on! The thing I need to remember is that it isn't my old scooter any more; I need to ride it like it's a completely different scooter until I've got a feel for it all; clutch and throttle are nothing like before – and I do need to be gentle with it all and keep the revs down. First I need to find out why my old shock bolt didn't fit, and open it up a bit or find an alternative bolt...... (I wasn't expecting that; I'd checked the main bolt through the engine only yesterday). Anyway, it's alive; everything else can be sorted – I'm happy.......... Thanks everyone; I'm going to have some late breakfast, have a tidy, and watch the rugby all afternoon. Kidda be gentle with the casings, and patient with stubborn studs; I think it was Doulsy recently who got a bit overexuberant with a stubborn one - soak it and heat it - - - - Then, if all else fails, whack it!!
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Post by kidda on Oct 17, 2015 13:16:51 GMT
I have success aswell,30 year of crap etc had basically welded the pin in (the big long one on the swinging arm)just got a touch medevil on its ass with a big hammer and smashed it out,time clean all the mating faces on the casings then repair the cush drive then it's rebuild time again,don't we just love vespas haha
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Post by kidda on Oct 17, 2015 13:18:05 GMT
Ride it like u stole it sime
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Post by swm on Oct 17, 2015 14:46:54 GMT
Brilliant ! Well done mate . Im sure I saw those ar*e cheeks clench when it started ! Happy for yer !
Cheers .
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Post by sime66 on Oct 17, 2015 16:01:19 GMT
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Post by kidda on Oct 18, 2015 1:49:07 GMT
Got the engineer's at work tonight drill out the rivets and rebuild the cush drive so it will be all systems go when I get up replacing bearings and start the rebuild,looking forward to the next instalment sime
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Post by swm on Oct 18, 2015 5:41:23 GMT
Sime have you been trying to put a 10 mm bolt in to a 9 mm hole ? Easily done .I was just reading about this last week on Scooterotica thinking whot a con having to buy a special awkward size expensive bolt , tipical !
Cheers.
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Post by sime66 on Oct 18, 2015 7:06:33 GMT
Kidda; what's all this ' got the engineers at work to do it' malarkey?! Behave yourself. Swm; I didn't know there were 9mm shock bolts on older engines, but I do now. I took the bolt out of my old '83 engine and hadn't checked it would fit in the new '82 engine. When I was lying in the garden with the weight of the engine in one hand and the greased up bolt in the other, I soon realised the error of my ways. Before ordering I need to check the length because I've read this morning that the Carbone shock is a slightly wider bracket; don't want another false start! I'm doing a few jobs on it just briefly this morning, but I'm not going to fire it up again today; I know it runs, I work on it in a shared garden right outside a neighbour's kitchen, where I can't start it, so I have to wheel it to the lane round the back, and I shouldn't ride it without the rear shock bolt in properly (it's just got a shorter M8 bolt pushed part-way through for now), which I can have here by Tuesday, so I'm just going to work through my snagging list, and do some adjustments, quietly for a few hours - it is Sunday morning and the neighbours have been good about it so far. I hope to do my ( gentle-if-it'll-let-me!!) running-in miles next week and weekend, then we can crack on with sorting my carb out – I'm itching to do some 0-60 and MicroDyno numbers now I've felt how lively it is.................
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