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Post by sime66 on Oct 3, 2015 8:31:32 GMT
Max power at 7,500 = 71mph, isn't it? Not max speed; will rev past that. Will do full port remeasure and timing calcs again, no problem, not now though; just popped indoors to pick some tools up. No matter how well I plan a job out the front I always have to come back inside for something I've left upstairs...................................
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Post by vespasco on Oct 3, 2015 8:48:25 GMT
Ive upgraded my pen top lids to some 0.3mm copper sheet (as i had some lying around), cut to size and wrapped around a cylinder stud, just like you have done. I think it works well.
Ill be fitting a new clutch seal today. When i stop drinking tea
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Post by sime66 on Oct 3, 2015 12:28:42 GMT
Sardine tin is better; you get the benefit of the Omega3 Oil - everyone knows that! Good luck with the seal; I've just put mine back together - need a new fuel line now, to put on the constantly topping-up list of last minute stuff....................... (Need to talk to you about old/manky/spare CHT rings, too; I have a spare, good, DR180 head that I had already thought about drilling for a better sensor)
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Post by sime66 on Oct 3, 2015 18:20:16 GMT
Here we go then, as requested/suggested, a port height check:I measured Exhaust and Transfer, wasn't sure which other you wanted, so did a port map, whhere I can add dims or areas if needed.I know you don't like the top of my boost transfer, and I suspect this is what you're interested in. I have really tried to get them square and level and a good angle up towards the bowl/plug, but I'm finding this bit very tricky and as I try to improve it the top is creeping higher (remember blu-tack moulds), which I know we don't want. It bothers me, but I really was struggling to do any better there. Anyway, here's my dims and tables:Dims - Port heights after skim:
My Spreadsheet Port Timing Calc: - new numbers in yellow highlight -
Lambretta Web Port Timing Calc (what's that 4.57 nonsense?):
New Port Map, after all that bleedin' Dremelling and the skim: - not so useful now that I've done the chamfering -
I know you don't like my Exhaust Boost Ports either (or the tops of my divided Transfers); I've done me best with those. I don't really see any marked benefit in doing more – I can make them different, but I'm not sure I can make them better.
My timings are very close to how it was before, now:
Id. - 125/55 Td. - 123.05 (7,500rpm) Ed. - 171.96 B.D - 24.45
C.R. - 10.35:1 C.C.R. - 6.61:1
Deck Height - -0.85mm Squish - 1.35mm
== I'll put more numbers here if I think of anything; trying to finish this post before the rugby starts ==
Tomorrow I'm out riding-about-a-bit to have a play with my CHT gauge, which did get in today, after a bit of a fight with a petrol tank. (It's OK; I've still got all my fingers)
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Post by vespasco on Oct 3, 2015 19:52:51 GMT
Briefly, Glad you double checked the exhaust port height! Nice figures
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Post by pxguru on Oct 5, 2015 5:55:43 GMT
There are a few things I would have done differently, like the boost ports, Width of transfers and second exhaust ports and much more but without a bigger carb and an expansion pipe these are not going to matter at all! all the important parts are done accurately and for what you want I expect this to go well.
I checked all the numbers. Just the height of the boost missing but looks almost the same as the transfers but is only important for a high rpm running on pipe.
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Post by sime66 on Oct 5, 2015 8:55:40 GMT
Thanks chaps, I'm going to be brief, otherwise I'll end up talking myself into more tweaks: I think I know where you mean, pxguru; it's the same two areas I had trouble getting right. The top of the slope on the boost ports was getting higher than the transfers as I tried to level them, which we didn't want, now they are level with the top of the chamfer, and I need to leave them alone so as not to go higher; I'm satisfied that you've said this and other tweaks don't matter so much for my carb/pipe/revs. The other bit was the second exhaust ports sloping over at the top, in fact you'd have done a much better job inside the exhaust chamber with flow at convergences and polish, but I've done my best for a first go, and although I know that there's a little more performance to be squeezed with some skill, I ain't got that skill, and I'm probably more than happy with what I've got. I'm not clear on where you mean by width of transfers though (mainly the raising of the whole barrel was to leave the transfers alone to keep the job simple for me); I know you would have left wider bridges in the divided port and wonder if I should flatten the tops of the ridges off to save scoring the rings? But as you're happy, I'm well happy to leave it alone now and call it done, and when the bare metal on the barrel is painted I'm going to bolt it up and test...................
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Post by sime66 on Oct 5, 2015 12:26:29 GMT
Nows a good time to check your how far your plug protrudes into the chamber, with your CHT sensor ring etc. fitted. ...How does 11mm from plug to piston dome sound? - If that's good, I'll leave it there, if it's close to crucial I'll go into more detail of how I got 11mm - I had a look because there's lots of holed pistons showing up on FB at the moment, which I'd like to avoid. (The crown is 1.75mm high and starts at -0.85, so protrudes into combustion chamber 0.9mm, but at about 13mm from edge; probably not at all - you can picture a section thro' that I haven't drawn, but could if needed). Don't know what I'd do at this stage if it was a problem though, but just so we know the point you raised has been looked at.
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Post by vespasco on Oct 5, 2015 21:59:44 GMT
Ah! I was thinking more along the lines of, Does it screw far enough into the chamber? Does it screw too far into the chamber? How far is too far? Threads of plug showing How far is not far enough? Electrode not in the chamber. I could not guess at what a good distance between the head and electrode actually should be. Too close and the piston crown could get too hot. All looks good to me tho', even although if it was mine, and the plug is at 6 o'clock position now, i would turn it to 12 o'clock using a slightly thicker washer. Only because i can! I think the difference it actually makes would be minimal/not measurable. Its about aiming the spark at the mix so to speak. Bolt it up!
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Post by henri on Oct 6, 2015 8:27:27 GMT
are you running the temp sender under plug ,as that will raise it a mill or so , otherwise thick copper washer so no threads show into combustion chamber .they clog with carbon an can form a hot-spot ,an also make plug removal hard an even damage threads as plug is pulled . H
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Post by sime66 on Oct 6, 2015 9:03:59 GMT
No, I've got the sensor on the stud furthest from the fan (bottom left, if facing*); it's already on the other engine - did it on the weekend to get some temps off that engine before I swap them over. The only drawback is that I'll have to loosen head to refit it to this engine - I will drill it into the head sometime; I have a spare DR180 head that I can get skimmed cheaply enough, so will experiment with it sometime later: The image of the head from yesterday morning shows that it's only about half the 2mm(ish) shoulder protruding, not any threads at all, I also think it shows the spark facing the incoming mixture as we want it.
This morning's progress: The engines is all together and complete now; I'm been playing with the pressure test, and pausing to have a think and a read before I go back to it this evening. I have enough pressure to blow my bung off if I don't strap it down, and still enough after 10 mins when I remove the binding, but can't yet get a reading on my pressure gauge. Not sure if I'm being too timid with pumping it - don't want to bugger it up testing it. - Just having a break and a think......................
I had decided to do TDC & BDC 5 min @ 5psi, then 10 min, then the same at 10psi, but I'm having teething problems with my method at the moment.......................
*I've just been pondering whether that's the best choice; I'd picked up the idea that sensor being away from the fan was good, but thinking about it I think I should be near the combustion chamber, so will change that to top left when I put it on this engine. I still don't like that one; it's in front of the fan; which do you use, pxguru? Top right under the long cowl nut might be OK.
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Post by sime66 on Oct 6, 2015 15:44:40 GMT
I'm making a couple of changes to first attempt: I've got another gauge with an 8mm adapter, which will fit in a bung so that I can keep it connected to see what's going on, while I'm pumping and during a timed test. That's going to be easier than a press-on gauge. Although the other gauge I bought had increments from 0-10psi, which is why I bought it, the gauge itself had a range up to 60psi. The one I'm getting now is up to 15psi, so should be easier to see going up to pressure, and easier to read as/if it drops. I did read what TzSteve had done, but I'd already bought and made my testing stuff a good few weeks ago; It'll work after a tweak anyway. Unfortunately, I've jammed the nuts on my carb studs and unscrewed the studs whilst removing the sealing plate, so I've left those soaking, and as long as I can get the nuts off, I'll Loctite the studs back before I do it all again. Hoping not to have extra delay of having to order studs, but had a look round this afternoon online in case I do. A 10 minute job has become a bit of a palaver, but I might as well do it properly now I've decided to do it. It wasn't looking like I'd have time to work on the scooter this weekend anyway, so doesn't really matter. No worries - happy with where I'm at with it!
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Post by vespasco on Oct 6, 2015 17:03:51 GMT
I would still try the plug with the sensor ring underneath the plug as there may come a time when you want to. To get hotter/more sensitive readings. Under the plug is obviously the best place to get readings from a sensor ring. In the head is even better.
I used the stud with the shroud sleeve nut when i tried it there. There was around 25°f drop in temps compared to under spark plug.
But remember the max temp of the cht gauge... If you tap it into the head you may (or may not) get readings of more than 350°f for eg. Which may (or may not) exceed the max limit of the sensor.
Tapping the sensor into the head for me means i cant take it out again. If i want to remove it, I'll have to break it off. Which, as the sip/koso senosrs are made of chocolate wrappers, won't be a problem.
At least youve got a known good running motor to get a base mark max temp for your new kit. I wouldnt compare to others readings too much. Too many variables, the weather being the main one!
So, do you plan to push it to 10psi?
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Post by sime66 on Oct 6, 2015 17:37:59 GMT
10 psi for ten minutes is what pxguru said in the previous thread, and is the figure that's stuck in my mind. I did note that some later information we've uncovered says lower. As I said I was going to start with 5psi. But I wasn't happy this morning just keep pumping and getting no reading on my gauge when I could feel pressure in my pump and could blow the bung off, so I stopped for a rethink. I'll be happier with a plumbed-in gauge that I can see going up as I pump and which is more sensitive because of its lower range. I'll still do a lower pressure test first as planned. This test wasn't meant to be a big deal, just a quick confirmation that all's well. I can feel that I'm definitely pressurising it and I can't hear leaking, but it will be nice to have some numbers. It'll have to wait for the other gauge now, but I'm not free this weekend anyway, so another day doing this won't hurt.
The stud with the long nut for the cowl does look like favorite - near the plug and away from fan. When I pictured it in my head I thought bottom left was best, but when I was looking at it again this morning it was clearly not the best choice - the barrel is further over than I'd pictured. I'll play with locations and readings as I get used to it and what it's doing; it's mainly a precaution and possibly an indicator of how my jetting is doing while I'm getting it right. I can make decisions on location once I get used to what it's telling me. The accuracy of the readings, and the upper limit of the gauge if I tap it are things I'll have to bear in mind. If I can get used to it and happy that I'm getting responsive and accurate readings, I'll leave it on a stud and be aware that my readings are lower than actual - it's with sudden or unexpected increases that I expect this to be useful - to avoid catastrophic failure; if I'm regularly so close to limits that I need the accuracy of being on the plug then I'll be closer to the limits than I will be happy with. Having it on the old engine before the swap was just to get an idea of how quickly it responded, and got up to temp, and what sort of temp range I'd be expecting - just a bit of a benchmark.
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Post by vespasco on Oct 6, 2015 18:19:24 GMT
The readings will be, what they will be. Not necessarily lower than actual Actual temps are inside the combustion chamber, so the closer you can get to that, the more accurate and sensitive your readings will be. Having the ring on a stud will give lower readings yes, but they will also be 'slower'. And the sooner you notice temps rising, the sooner we realise there could be a problem occuring. You'll soon get used to whats normal for your motor. Winter/summer gives cooler/warmer readings Check the thread and pitch of your sensor, the bit that screws into the ring adapter. The sip/koso are a weird size, something like 4.7 x 0.7 ? To fit it into the head, I ended up having to drill a slightly bigger pilot hole for a 4mm tap (with the correct pitch) and plenty of loctite If yours is a 'normal' metric size then it may be a lot easier if you plan to go that route. But where to fit it exactly still takes a little working out. I went the 'easiest and the best' route. Which turned out to be, in my opinion, next to the plug. I wouldnt be without a CHT gauge these days
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Post by sime66 on Oct 6, 2015 20:27:19 GMT
I got the TrailTech one with a more substantial (but not so easily swappable) 90º copper ring, which hopefully will prove to be less fragile than the SIP/Koso ones. If and when I break the first one, I'll dismantle it to see how the ring connects to the wires and what I can do with it; it comes in a chunky shroud and I've added the cable sleeve and some heatshrink to protect it more. It might be that I can make and solder(?) on other copper rings or alternatives if ever I get to the stage of experimenting with it – it's only a thermocouple or something between the ring and wires. I hadn't really thought I'd be tapping a thread if I put it in the head, more drilling a hole (or slot in fin-base) and JB welding it in, but that's not until I break one anyway. I'm convinced it's worth having, I wanted to make a decision and buy one before swapping engines. This is small and waterproof and has a strudy ring, and it was on offer with the 180cm extension cable thrown in; cheaper than buying both direct from USA, and without the wait or the risk of import/customs charges so I grabbed it; I'm convinced I'll be glad I did; no point doing all that engine stuff and not having one really. The specifics of locating it and its use will be a bit of trial and error, and is still a few stages down the line of the engine job. My minds on the pressure test at the moment, but I have to wait for stuff again now............
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Post by pxguru on Oct 7, 2015 3:53:15 GMT
If you are concerned about the pressure, try 5psi for 5 minutes. Some experts say 0.5 bar some say upto 1 bar. When they leak you normally know while you're still pumping Just put the sensor under the plug for now. You have to put it between double nuts it on the head stud or it messes with the head torque.
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Post by sime66 on Oct 7, 2015 6:15:27 GMT
Just got in; lots of slippy wet leaves out there after a wet and windy night – ride carefully chaps. I'm not concerned about whether it's 5 or 10 psi, my concern was pumping without being able to move the gauge I had; I didn't like what I was doing, so I'm getting something more suitable and will have another go. I was certainly pressurising it, so that's good, my only concern is that I didn't pump it too much with the first attempt, but I'll just have to wait and see; nothing I can do until I get the other gauge. Having decided it was a worthwhile exercise, I might as well do it properly and get some numbers. The plan remains 5psi – 5 mins and 10 mins, then (maybe) same for 10 psi if the 5psi is OK; got to get a method that works first and I've got no carb studs at the moment either. I'm not going to worry too much about the sensor location at this stage; It's on and it's working, and a bit of trial and error will see it right. I appreciate the pros and cons of different locations with regard to response, accuracy, ease of changing plug, messing around with torqued nuts etc.; I will find what works best. At present it's just nice to see a steady rise as I go about my business, they're probably low readings because of where I've put it for now, but I haven't hooned it up the motorway yet; just getting a feel for it and making my mistakes now before I really need it on the new engine. I take note about the double nut so as not to bugger the torque; that factor occurred to me yesterday. As it happens, my scooter started with half a kick this morning, so I think 'Old Faithful' benefited from a head retorquing on the weekend too, which I didn't expect. Other than my normal maintenance she's had little attention this year and has been really good.
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Post by vespasco on Oct 7, 2015 19:26:57 GMT
Nice to hear youve had plenty of trouble free mileage. Its a good feeling when it all goes right. That ring does look a lot more sturdier than the sip /koso ones. So that must be a 14mm hole. Theres really only one place to put that. Forget the studs - as above it will mess with the torques, forget the double nut - it will barely be worth having in there and its too large diameter for a stud anyway Under the plug! Simplest and the best
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Post by sime66 on Oct 7, 2015 22:11:49 GMT
I've been thinking about this pressure test this evening, and why I'm not getting a gauge reading, when I know I'm getting pressure; I'm going to redo it with the lower psi range gauge set up anyway, but I was wondering if it was because I was pumping at the carb and reading at the exhaust (and the other way round, which didn't work either), BUT I didn't have all the ports open when I was doing it at either at TDC or BDC. I'm thinking perhaps I'd get a better reading (or any reading would be good) when all ports are open; between 125º (I.o.) and 118.5º (T.c.) BTDC. Does that make sense? Will it give me a completely pressurised crank case and barrel at the same time, if I do it at a piston position where all ports are open, where I'm maybe not getting that now? I expect my stuff will come tomorrow anyway, but I'm going to try that to see if it was my piston position that was preventing giving me a result (maybe I was pressurising one side and just leaking into the other). I'll leave that there in case any early birds comment, but I might sleep on it and realise it's nonsense; it's been a long day. More tomorrow........................
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Post by pxguru on Oct 8, 2015 5:57:49 GMT
The piston should be at BDC but the pressure will get past the rings anyway.
Take the valve part out of your bung and just hold the pressure on the pump. My pump has a gauge on it and I just use that.
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Post by sime66 on Oct 8, 2015 7:43:06 GMT
Thanks, I'm sure I'll suss it (unless I've already buggered it). This was only supposed to take a few minutes after I had the barrel on; sorry to be making a fuss over it, but I want to see my gauge move up and stay up.............
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Post by sime66 on Oct 8, 2015 19:18:37 GMT
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Post by vespasco on Oct 8, 2015 23:18:33 GMT
Good work sime Id be happy with that
Next vid...... Suck,squeeze,bang,blow then repeat 1000000s of times over
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Post by pxguru on Oct 9, 2015 6:06:16 GMT
Looks plenty good enough for me too. Head skimming is sealing very well too by the looks of it. Get it running and run in. 200 spluttery miles in 3rd gear should do it. Then you can see what a 180 is supposed to go like
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Post by henri on Oct 9, 2015 6:54:54 GMT
as above ,slam that baby in a frame n splutter about for a bit , then the fun off jetting an ya ready for take off . the local sheep will have to get lively to get out the way , H
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Post by sime66 on Oct 9, 2015 7:16:59 GMT
Thanks chaps; that's a good way to start the weekend. Now the fun can begin.............. After a last blast, though - the old one deserves a treat before being replaced - one last trip to the seaside............ Happy days!
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Post by pxguru on Oct 9, 2015 10:07:07 GMT
Before old faithful comes out, if you haven't already, get some performance data for comparison later. Something like Vespasco has done for his. 0-60 time would be a good one for yours, as there will be some differance on the new motor!
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Post by sime66 on Oct 9, 2015 13:03:45 GMT
Yes, I'll do that. I've got my best MicroDyno, but it won't hurt to do some more and up to date ones – even to refresh myself with the method. I'll also use Vespasco's new app to do a 0-60 and stuff too; probably Sunday morning – but I don't want you chaps laughing at my old girl when it's takes twice as long as yours! A benchmark for the new one; that's all. (then, of course, there's the question of what to do to Old Faithful in 2016........................................)
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Post by doulsy on Oct 9, 2015 21:26:54 GMT
don't think i will bother posting any pictures of my old 200 casings
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