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Post by bryno on Oct 20, 2014 11:29:11 GMT
The seat mount bolts are the same for the long seat and the single type, so you have 4 options;
long double seat, single no rack, single with flat rack, single with flat rack and buddy seat pad, or 2 single seats.
I put single on mine with flat rack and removable buddy seat pad, the singles do push you quite far forward so may not be confortable, particually on longer runs when its good to be able to move about a bit.
To get it running believe you just need the red & black wires from stator to coil to be connected, not sure of your best option to secure bar an engine stand, Steve at Jersey Scooter Centre has made some which were not expensive, probably other options on Ebay
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Post by henri on Oct 20, 2014 16:34:13 GMT
when ya start welding you'll have to learn bout gaps n wire sizes n penetration , get a basic welding book ,think haynes do one , an pull up a few you-tube vids ,dont believe all of em as they aint peer-reviewed an ive seen sum right howlers on there , weldin cant be taught , it can be shown then learnt by doing , get some new slighly thicker steel 14 gauge /1.6mmm ,scraps from local factorys/skips etc , weld 2 together, clamp one in vice n hit other with hammer , when it dont fly across garage ya getting it , refer back to problems/pictures in book to see where ya going wrong ,an repeat , then do it again with 16 gauge/1mm steel , when ya can weld this ,go to a scrap yard n find oldest door/wing/bonnet ya can an have a go , aged steel is well harder to weld , then finally ya half blind with arc eye n covered in spelter burns ya ready to weld ya floor , an yes copper is clamped behind ,stops the gas n arc just blowing through n holing the floor/leggy joint , as bryno says 2 wires n a tank of juice n engine will start , a engine stand is a good way to learn to weld on thicker 2mm thick 25mm angle iron , right after youvemade a welder trolley out of it ,steal the design from flea bay ,sorry got to go ,me teas ready , H
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 22, 2014 19:56:55 GMT
Clutch Problem - I've rebuilt the clutch and slotted it back onto the crank with the washer. Problem is when I put the clutch cover on it rubs against the clutch bell. How can this be happening? I even tried it without the washer in place and it still does it! The con rod is dead centre and running nicely. Surely if the crank was further in toward the flywheel side then the con rod would be off centre? So how can I get the clutch bell to stop rubbing against the clutch cover? Could I have inserted the springs incorrectly? They look ok and I don't think that would cause the rubbing anyway? Thanks
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 23, 2014 6:29:26 GMT
More info: Id say the part of the crank that the clutch washer fits onto sits about 2mm proud of the clutch side oil seal. That seems about right I think? I'm assuming both the flywheel and clutch side crank positions are dictated by the con rod being dead centre as if either was incorrectly seated the con rod would be off centre position? So working the problem out wards it must be a clutch bell size or plate and cog fitting issue? I have two clutch covers and they both do the same. I also have the old bell so I may refit the old bell and see if that works. Ideas and thoughts very much welcome!
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 23, 2014 6:42:05 GMT
One more sorry - In the SIP pack there was an extra cork and metal plate. So 2 extra plates which seemed surplus and old clutch only had 3 corks and 2 metal. Should they have gone in and would that make a difference?
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Post by bryno on Oct 23, 2014 7:57:24 GMT
If you have changed the clutch bell, I'd say that's going to be your issue, may be a deeper unit than the OE?
You'd know if the crank was not spot on position wise, in my experience if it is out even just a little it will not turn free, if it was too far in by a MM or so you would see no gap between the inner web and the casing when you look down the casing throat and it would foul on the side of the casing making it stiff to turn over, if your crank turns free with both casings bolted together it should be fine.
I'd check size of your new clutch vs the OE.
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 23, 2014 8:56:51 GMT
That's what I'm thinking. With the flywheel on I can push/pull the con rod lightly with two fingers so I'm totally reluctant to change that after so much hassle fitting. The crank also totally covers the carb inlet hole on rotation too so it must be right. I'm going to break down the new bell again and compare each component size. If the bell size is the same then maybe it's the clutch centre gear or centre plate depth. Cheers Bryno
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Post by henri on Oct 23, 2014 9:12:40 GMT
as bryno says if youve fitted a new part n theres a problem ,its ya most likely suspect , an sip clutches are deeper if i member right, it rubs on the casting round the clutch shaft , usual remedy is to paint inside with engineers blue or kiddies watercolour paint assemble, turn over, take cover off an grind/dremel down the high spot/rubbing marks ,carefully bit at a time til the cover no longer rubs on clutch ,then wash of the paint/blue , i think sime66 had this recently when fitting a sip clutch on his px,but principle is the same,check out his build thread an it will give you hints/tips n guidance . H
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 23, 2014 9:55:26 GMT
Cheers Henri ive got a dremmel on order so good timing! I'm sure these rebuilds would be easier if the parts were engineered the same. But then where would the challenge and satisfaction be!
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Post by bryno on Oct 23, 2014 12:08:00 GMT
^ why I always stay with stock parts, I just can't be bothered messing around with poorly fitting mismatched stuff you have to modify to get to work, too frustrating :-)
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Post by sime66 on Oct 23, 2014 12:55:19 GMT
...sorry chaps; stopped reading this thread regularly when you lot went into all that welding talk - just had a scan of it now, and saw my name, so To fit a SIP Cosa, I had to Dremel down the web in the casing, and the clutch cover. The words and pictures can be found here: vespa.proboards.com/thread/4070/cosa-clutch-fine-adjustmentSlow and steady - bit at a time - couple of hours... I'm a right novice, and a danger to myself with power tools, so if I can do it, you can easily! Maybe this will help too: My clutch cover before repair/fitting Cosa - and - p200 cover, to show where web had to be removed (I Dremelled my old one, and the same web in the casing as pic in link above): I also had a right giggle, and a fair bit of investigation to get the spacer right; this is what I came up with at the time (it's at the bottom of the second page of the above thread, but this might help you find it): · "Just to tidy up the subject of spacers; what worked for me was my original 3mm(measured) non-autolube spacer, and a 0.8mm (SIP) spacer; this then makes up the autolube drive cog thickness of 3.8mm. That might be obvious to most, but aiming for 3.8mm, if you haven’t got autolube and can’t get your hands on a cheap cog, seemed to work. That might help anyone following later; obviously getting the channels right is crucial too."
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Post by henri on Oct 23, 2014 15:16:30 GMT
i knew if i mentioned ya name ya "spidey senses" wud tingle ,eh sime , any excuse to get ya photoflykrebucket thingy out n runnin , wouldnt be allowed in polite god fearin company ,just as well we aint , H
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 24, 2014 17:00:43 GMT
Clutch taken part and rebuilt again. I defo didn't have the springs sitting right that's for sure so I'm glad I did it. Now I'm the owner of a nice little compression tool for 90p too - love a local hardware store rather than a Wickes where you have to buy 500 bolts and washers! Used a mixture of good old parts and new cork plates and refitted but still rubbing on the cover. The bell was fractionally bigger than the old one but not enough to justify a different one as it would have still rubbed for sure. Not bothered though as I'm gonna just dremmel the inside of it as after fitting the clutch and piston and cylinder etc its running smooth and true so I'm leaving well alone.
Couple of questions re planning ahead:
- In relation to the carb and in particular the entry of the fuel pipe - does it just run down and out of the fuel tank and down to the carb and up through the bottom grommet and into the carb inlet Banjo? It's just that I imagine gravity will carry the fuel down to the carb but then it has to angle upwards into the carb and Banjo - am I being stupid?
- Early doors Henri mentioned the Cumbria dude with the Douglas Jig for reshaping frames. I've had a good look at mine and while the measurements are accurate between the seat and steering as outlined above but the frame has certainly sat on its side at some point and has caused splits at the top where the headset sits and down the side of the leg shields equal to where your knees would be If that's uncle refer to earlier photos above. So I was wondering what does the Jig do? Would it bend back in place the upper areas of the leg shields for example or does it just work on the core frame/spine?
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Post by henri on Oct 24, 2014 17:34:34 GMT
the jig is the old douglas checking jig ,what frames were fettled on after welding together ,not strictly a "straightening jig" for accident , but the bloke with it is a goddamm genuis at gettin vesps right ,well jealous, it works on the central spine tunnel , your splits are outboard of this an are were its been bashed an leggys/floor has flexed whilst spine hasnt by the look of em, they also split from vibrations makin leggys flex .john in cumbria could do the body straightening but wud prob want to weld it first ,mucho dinero, its well within diy capabilitys to sort leggys , the metal has a memory n wants to return to its pressed shape , when ya weld the splits the heat will cause further small distortion , a rubber mallet an a keen eye n big confident wallop will straighten it , take a eye line from rear ,follow seam on arch an middle of tank mounts at rear n seat pin forward ,nose of seat seam up to stem ,or use a straight edge/chalk string , it should all be on a centre line ,if it looks ok by eye its within tolerances , when walloping thin steel always support it on other side , palm of ya hand ,but that soon hurts,or sandbag , ya can make ya own or in this country there 40-60 quid ,theres a aussie guy on flea bay doin em for a tenner an 5 for airmail ,supporting drunk aboriginals or sum charity,coz of weight they come without sand ,smoothed out river sand baked in a oven ,20 mins at mark 5 delia reckons,is best, but builders sand will do, its what i use on leggy dents an so long as there not creased dont have to get hammer n dollys out , an for carb as fuel in tank is higher than carb bowl ,weight of fuel forces stuff in pipe over the hump n bowl fills ,like a syphon affect , ok , H
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 24, 2014 18:41:11 GMT
Mate I love your replies, I have to read them and read them again but I always get your gist! Frame to Cumbria is out. Had the floor and side runners deliver form all styles. I was sure the runners were gonna be wider than they were, i.e. the width of edge to inner seam. I line them up against the frame and the shaping is way off! Floor is flat so not an issue. Whatever though I think I'm gonna crack on with the floor and weld the outer splits around the leggys, bash away like you said, and see where I'm at OR I'm gonna leave the floor and runner panels and just weld the splits, little holes, straighten the frame and skim fill. It'll still be decent restoration.
What do you do though when you're wring on a VBB and someone offers you another scooter for restoration? And I've got a spare engine! Focus on the task in hand or grab another project?? Henri I'm morphing into a scoot nut by the day!!!
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 24, 2014 19:16:38 GMT
Oh one more - I refitted the selector box with the selector rod right out and as I pushed the box on I put the box through the notches on top in order to push it into place. But I'm not sure how the box works - Was I supposed to have the rod fully out (what gear is that?) and the arm from the box right out (what gear is that?) in order to fit the box? And as I push the box into place should I be keeping the rod fully out and click the box through its gears to push the arm back into the selector box while keeping the rod fully extended?
Hope that makes sense. Just want make sure that the selector rod position corresponds to the correct gear on the selector box.
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Post by vespasco on Oct 24, 2014 21:00:04 GMT
On the end of the gear selector arm there is a small, metal, 'rounded off' block, that should locate/slot into the large 'groove' on the end of selector rod. Starting off with the selector rod fully out and the selector arm fully out, makes it easier to 'connect' the 2 together. As you push the gear selector box into place, ease it along by turning the 'batwing/pawl/whatever you want to call it' and/or rotating the drive shaft. With the selector rod fully out the gearbox would be in 1st gear... With the selector box arm fully out the selector box would be in 4th gear! As you push the selector box into place then,hopefully, the 'batwing' will adjust itself , as you described
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Post by sime66 on Oct 25, 2014 6:52:51 GMT
The important thing is to correctly set the gears up between shifter and selector box before fitting it to the cruciform connector rod or fixing it onto the scooter. Then with the rod right out and the selector box in 4th, you connect the two (the swiveling piece on the end of the arm into the groove at the end of the rod) and use the gear shifter to pull the selector box onto the studs and home onto the gasket, aligning and pushing at the selector box end at the same time. Once it’s all back together, the position of the arm in the selector box (dictated by the shifter and notches on the batwing, already set up correctly) will cause the rod to be in the correct place for the selected gear. – As long as you have a decent selector box that is correct for your gear box, and you’ve set it up right before fitting. There’s still room for final adjustment with the cable adjusters at the selector box end, and they take up slack of stretching cables and keep alignment at shifter correct.
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crooky
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Post by crooky on Oct 25, 2014 9:14:12 GMT
Ok so following that through - I place the rod from the engine fully out (4th gear) - and the selector box arm fully out (1st gear) - at this point I need to slot the arm swivel into the end of the rod - then I push the box into place by 'forcing' the bat wing through it's gear selections - i.e. if I push the selector box through 4 notches the box arm with the swivel will arrive in 4th gear - and as the rod is still fully extended it will also still be in 4th gear - and at this point the box should in theory be fully into position and the selector box gear will directly correspond with the gear box.
Do I have that right?
On the 'decent selector box' thing - it is quite difficult to push through the notches manually on the bat wing (I'm talking about when it is in my hand off the bike). Is that normal or should it flick through very easily? The box generally looks in ok condition otherwise.
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Post by sime66 on Oct 25, 2014 9:46:41 GMT
I think your problem is with worrying about setting the gears up at this stage of your project. Normally, you would have the selector box control wires fitted to the selector box first, and be controlling the batwing from the shifter lever, not by trying to turn the batwing itself. It’s much easier to set the selector box and gears up first, off the engine. I haven’t followed this all the way through from your intro; are you using the original selector box off the 1960s engine? If so then an inspection/overhaul of selector box parts for damage/wear is surely a good idea before refitting. There should be a definite resistance and click (the spring and the wheel in the batwing groove), but forcing never sounds good. You need to check for wear etc. too. If, as I’ve just realized you probably are, you’re just replacing the selector box on an engine which isn’t yet fitted on scoot, it will be best to refit it and set it up properly after the engine is refitted, so not critical now. You’re still playing with your frame aren’t you? I’d be doing: 1) Inspect/overhaul selector box (refit temporarily if it makes you happy) 2) (Later) Set gears up with control cables between selector box and shifter lever 3) Then fit selector box to engine in scooter I’m going to leave it there because I’m not up to date on where you are with your engine, so might be wasting our time, except: I don't think you engine is in your scooter? So, I don't think you need to be worrying about setting your gears up yet. edit: As vespasco said, and as I'm sure you know, you can check the rod through the gears by turning the engine and moving the rod itself in and out through the gears as you go up and down the box. - You get both parts (gearbox/crux rod -and- selector box) set up right before fitting together. You do seem to have your 1st and 4th muddled in your last post , but it doesn't matter when the selector box is set up right - there are only set positions of selector box (positions on batwing), which correspond to set distances of rod in/out, which correspond to position of crux in gearbox, which correspond to gears. - If you have your gearbox and selector box right.
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Post by vespasco on Oct 25, 2014 15:12:12 GMT
As above.. Dont force anything!! I did mention the word 'ease' not force! There will be resistance,if cables are connexted use the gear shifter on the handlebars to move the selector batwing. With cables unattached you can use a screwdriver or similar to 'lever' the batwing through the notches/gear positions...sounds more dodgy than it actually is! Hard to describe! But its 'just' possible to do by hand
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Post by henri on Oct 25, 2014 17:51:15 GMT
reckon the above has told ya bout selecters boxes enuff ,all good info from my scan-read ,got to walk the boys now so will re-read later,not doubting the lads jus a belt n braces man an might learn sumting aswell. right , "do you take on another scoot whilst already doing one" , i might be the wrong 1 to ask ,but here goes , YES an DEFINETLY , projects get stalled ,run out of weldin gas/wire ,waitin on postie with bits,or answers to probs on here , etc, another project ya can turn to means ya can keep on "shedding it" , an its all skills building/practise for your own one ,make the first time blunders on tother scoot n correct them an your own one will benifit from experience gained . the leggy repair panels i got from allstyles were the right curve ,i checked em against a known good scoot ,so prob the cracking n storage has distorted the edge of ya leggys , unless ya postie has a habit of straightening parcels to fit through letterboxes , the above first answer should really come with a health/sanity warning , i mean ya askin a bloke who has plans of startin a religion/philosophy called "shedology" , ive even got the first 3 commandments worked out , 1 all are welcome to the shed 2 stub fags out in ashtray n never smoke near fresh paint ,3 no spittin on the floor , an am workin on tother 7 ,or maybe 10 ,cant decide , its tough being the pope ,the only limit i see on how many projects/scoots/bikes you can have is shed space ,but ive found a way round that , rent more sheds ,i'm upto 2 garages 3 sheds with a option on a 4th (hopefully a spray-shop), a couple in a mates garage an i build engines in my clean space ,my flats front room , some call it my obsession , i prefer hobby/passion , anyways came on to say i'm away from brighton this weekend at my secret lair/batcave/hollowed out volcano , actually my dads garage ive overtaken , an have photo's of my beading tools ,soon as i'm back in blighty i'll e mail em to ya ,ok , still think photobucket/flyker is "devils work" an as a budding religous leader am steering vwell clear , H
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