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Post by sime66 on Jun 5, 2014 16:00:57 GMT
The oil drain is taking a backseat, because it held well along the bumpy country lanes this morning (so for now, taking precautions and keeping an eye on it), and because getting the clutch right is becoming the most pressing matter. She’s starting and running lovely, but the clutch is proving quite tricky to get right. Here’s my symptoms, and thoughts on possible causes. Any advice to stop me chasing erroneous hunches and deal with the cause really would be very much appreciated; I know I keep saying that, but I really do mean it:
· I’ve still got some drag in 1st gear, which I can’t get rid of, even with the finest tweaking of the cable, so that I’ve only just still got my kickstart.
· This means, for now at least I’m having to make sure I’m in neutral when I pull up, but in general I’m sometimes fighting with the grip to find the gears all through the selection, but particularly 2nd to 3rd, which I’m really fighting, and tends then to go into 4th. 1st is a struggle from neutral, and finding neutral whilst shifting down is hit-and-miss, so I’d have to stall if I really needed to stop and couldn’t get neutral in traffic. This is all very much more of a struggle than it was before; I had no drag, and gear selection was almost always smooth, with only a very occasional stiff-shift or gear jump.
I’m really asking:
1. Whether it will settle down with a bit of riding, or whether I’m making it worse by not dealing with it. I reckon I could get where I needed to if I had to, but wouldn’t ride it for fun.
2. Whether it’s because the rebuilt, soaked clutch sat in an oily bag for a few weeks while I did the rebuild, although the time from removing it from the bag to installation was only a couple of hours, and the first run was the early next morning (within 12 hours of removing it from bag).
3. Whether I need this .5mm spacer, which I bought, but don’t really understand what it might do, or if it might help.
4. Whether my gear cables might need redoing, although they were spot-on before, and I don’t really want to bugger them up too, when the most likely cause is the clutch. When I have the gears, and neutral, the shifter is pointing correctly on the handlebars, and it’s riding fine in all gears. I don’t think it’s gear cables or selector box.
5. Whether there’s some other solution I haven’t thought of.
Basically I don’t know whether I need to be stripping it down, inspecting and re-soaking it, or something more involved, or just give it time to settle down.
Any pointers, anyone?
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Post by sbwnik on Jun 5, 2014 19:20:02 GMT
It's possible to have the gear cables too tight. I aim for a few mm rotation when I set mine up.
That said, it's more than likely that sitting the clutch in oil for that long may have had a swelling effect on the corks. I know it's a Cosa, but is it a Cosa or Mk1 clutch?
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Post by sime66 on Jun 5, 2014 19:36:13 GMT
I don't mean it was immersed for weeks, it was soaked, and left wrapped for weeks to keep it moist until I was ready to fit it. I'm really not happy with it being the gear cables, at this stage, because they were perfect before, and I left them on the selector box, so haven't changed since before the build. I'd prefer to leave that possibility to last. It's a Cosa (below):I've been reading all I can today, and it seems that he plates aren't seperating, which keeps making me suspect the spacing of the clutch on the crankshaft, relative to the primary, but this is the first one I've fitted, so can't quite picture what I'm trying to achieve.
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Post by vespasco on Jun 5, 2014 21:33:42 GMT
1. Check the cables (clutch, gears) are tensioned correctly 2.. Check you have enough gearbox oil 3. Im guessing the .5mm spacer you speak of is used to space the difference in old type clutch spacer @ 3.3mm thick and new type spacer with oil cog which is 3.8mm. If you fitted the same spacer and same clutch , which were working ok before then you should be ok. So if you have oil feed cog/spacer you'll not likely need that .5mm spacer. Is that the right way round?!?!? Maybe not!!!! 4. Its worth re tensioning / checking those cables again. 5. Whats it like without the engine running? Can you push it in 1st/2nd etc gear with the lever in (clutch working) 6. Its possible theres not enough oil in the clutch as yet but see if theres any difference after adjusting the cables correctly. Try a search for detailed cable adjustment tips. If its no better after all that (I'm hoping it will be ok though , fingers crossed)! then .... try plan B *Edit: thats weird. I didnt see any replies when i started typing this! I may have to revise the above! ah! Ok. Cosa mkll clutch. Is that an upgrade or did you have this type fitted before? i know my cosa mkll clutch has a 3.3mm spacer.
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Post by sime66 on Jun 6, 2014 4:57:27 GMT
Chaps, This is my scooter - PX150EFL Engine Strip and Rebuild - throughout May.
This all follows on from the grey oil self-destructing mk1 clutch, the Mk1 vs Cosa debate we had, the engine strip and rebuild, engine back in last weekend. I put the engine back in last weekend ("It's alive!!") I have just two teething problems that I'm aware of, and each has a thread going at the moment: - This thread, to try to get the clutch/gears right. - The thread about my stripped drain plug, which is pretty much sorted, and a dormant thread now until I do some work on it.
Yes there's oil (fresh and full - no leaks); yes the clutch cable is very finely tweaked; yes I'll check the gear cables, but I haven't messed with them or removed them from the selector box and they were fine;yes it is running fine in gear, when it is in gear - I'll try pushing it in gear with clutch in.
There are two distinct problems with my clutch/gears:
1) There is clutch drag that I can't get rid of with very fine and careful adjustment of the clutch cable - I'm pretty confident that I am normally able to do this, and for this clutch I can't get it right.If I go the slightest bit tighter, I'll lose my kickstart. That problem isn't connected to tight gear cables. (This is clutch - either lubrication or space to operate ; I still have the Mk1 non-autolube spacer, which I think is thinner than the oil gear cog, which might be the problem) 2) Gear selection is very difficult - not always; sometimes it slips through the gears exactly as I would hope, and sometimes no amount of force will move it - either up or down through gears, which is making riding very difficult, especially when I need neutral because of the clutch drag. (This is gears - either gearbox or cables/selector)
It's a newly built engine (by me, and subject to a few tweaks it is running well) It's a newly built clutch (by someone on this Forum who I am confident will have done a better job of building a clutch than I can (posted to me a couple of weeks ago, hence time in bag); but whose work I will have to dismantle and rebuild if I can't find another solution).
Hope that's clarified the query; the engine build - fuel, carb, cylinder, ignition, exhaust, stator and all electrics are all lovely. The other side of engine; clutch and transmission is giving me these couple of little problems.
I'm trying to make a plan of action for this weekend. If I haven't sorted it by next weekend, I'll have the engine out again and do this and the oil plug job inside where it's clean and dry to split the casings, and have thorough inspection clutch-side too again.
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Post by pxguru on Jun 6, 2014 7:26:11 GMT
Sime66, Post a picture of the clutch arm how it is adjusted now. If the spacer under the clutch is too thin the arm will be sitting too far forward and it will be difficult to adjust like you say. If this angle is correct then the problem is inside the clutch.
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Post by sime66 on Jun 6, 2014 8:24:06 GMT
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Post by sime66 on Jun 6, 2014 8:53:44 GMT
This is what I can’t quite picture in my mind: When the clutch is disengaged, the basket (21) is out and the corks and plates are closed? When I pull the clutch lever, it is the basket that moves inwards? To separate the corks and plates? (19) is permanently fixed and moving with the crankshaft, and (16) moves when the clutch is disengaged - when the plates are together. If that is correct, then I can see how if the gap between bottom of basket and primary is too small, it might not allow enough movement to fully separate the clutch plates and corks. Is that right? – that it is the basket that is pushed towards the engine? If so, it sort of makes sense to me. That might be really basic, but I can’t quite get it in my head.
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Post by vespasco on Jun 6, 2014 9:43:58 GMT
You've got it right. Yes. Just about.
This is a new clutch right? so check the cut outs (where the cork plate 'tabs' lock into the basket) in the basket are 21mm-22mm deep. Manufacturing tolerances have not been so good lately. If these are not deep enough this will also prevent correct seperation of the plates. This would do the same thing as the 0.5mm washer, to allow correct separation of plates.
Seems like the cable, if anything is over tightened, so we can probably rule out the cable tension. Which would leave the clutch itself. If/when you decide to pull the clutch, first measure the depth of the cut outs in the basket and before putting it back, make sure it has been soaking in (the correct) oil. overnight. You can 'bench test' the clutch plates seperate and spin freely before you fit it.
The non lube spacer should be fine. I guess youre pre mixing then!!
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Post by glscoot on Jun 6, 2014 9:48:00 GMT
Simon Is the clutch cable ok, it looks a bit frayed between the arm and rubber sleeve. Also check the inside clutch cover for any marks. Gary
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Post by joey on Jun 6, 2014 10:20:51 GMT
Make sure the clutch has been put together correctly................
2 of the steels MUST go in in a specific order.
1st steel in is thicker than the rest, and then the 2nd steel has a small notch cut out of one of the inner teeth. I had snatch for ages and tried everything to cure it until I became aware of this, never had a problem since.
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Post by partanen on Jun 6, 2014 10:29:21 GMT
I had exactly same problems some time ago. I'm still pretty sure it was caused by over tighten clutch nut. Correct torque for the cosa clutch nut is only 40-45Nm, which I thought was a mistake, but it wasn't. If you tighten it too much the oil pump cog gear will bend, and causes the clutch drag. At least that's what happened to me.
A slight clutch dragging causes all your problems with gears as well.
What was your torque setting when you tightened the clutch nut?
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Post by sime66 on Jun 6, 2014 11:35:37 GMT
I’ll change the cable, just to take it out of the equation, but there’s really nothing wrong with it, it’s new but one filament is missing and not close to anything; it means I’ll have to adjust it again when the new one stretches. I do think both sets of cables are a bit of a red herring though – they have not changed, the clutch has changed, but I’ll do it so we can move on from it. Anyway, I have a nasty feeling that I am a Proper Donkey. When I dremmelled to make the Cosa fit, I measured and marked a disengaged clutch – not realizing, at that time, that the actual clutch basket moves inwards when engaged. This has dawned on me as I’ve clarified and understood how the clutch works inside itself. I suspect that I may need to remove more of that little web (marked in red, where I removed it at clutch fitting stage before –see first picture below), I only removed it as far down as the underside of the disengaged clutch, so I need to go lower to fit the larger diameter clutch when engaged (moved in). In actual fact I’d already been thinking that I’d probably not taken enough off for the banded basket, which I have it in mind to get quite soon. So I reckon I’ve got more dremelling to do in there anyway. For that reason I am not too bothered about having to take the engine out again (and I can do the drain plug at the same time). Here’s photos of space made for Cosa: Now, I am going to ask this question below though, because it might save me another go at it later, it is specifically to do with this spacer: If I can get the clutch to fit inside the clutch cover with the extra spacer installed, (probably with a bit more dremelling of cover – see second picture above) is there any reason not to include it if it is going to give me: 1) More room to adjust the clutch, when I’m back at the stage of tweaking it with engine in and running? 2) More space for the clutch because it will lift my clutch away from the web I’ve been dremelling to make room for it. Vespasco: It’s a newly rebuilt clutch. Lets call it a good second hand, refurbished, from a reliable source – an economy option at the time when the cost of the job was getting out of hand; a decision I made and have to stand by. The scooters always been non-autolube, I’m using the spacer that’s always been under the Mk1 clutch for the Cosa clutch now, I believe that spacer is narrower than the oil gear cog. I’ve always premixed. Probably obvious now, but it drags in 1st and 2nd with clutch in. Joey: Thanks, it’s likely that stripping and rebuilding clutch will be necessary, and I’ll take it on board and check very carefully; I was aware of the thicker steel, but didn’t build this clutch. I’ve never built either type of clutch, and this is the first one I’ve installed. Partenen: Off the top of my head, I don’t know exact figure I used, but when I did it I transferred the correct torque from book to wrench and applied it very carefully. I’ve got 39-44 on my schedule, and usually set to mid-way, so call it 42NM. Chaps, You’ve given me loads to investigate and inspect. I’ll take the cover off and get in there as best I can to see if I can see any signs of clutch rubbing/fouling, I can get clutch off to inspect it too, and if needed, and depending on what I can see with the engine in-situ, I can quite quickly take the engine out again if necessary, especially if my hunch concerning more dremelling proves correct (If I can see new damage where I’ve been dremelling). I know I don't need to take engine out, but given both jobs, for me it's probably going to be better than doing it outside in the rain, which is forecast. Thanks all, I’ll update over weekend………..
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Post by pxguru on Jun 6, 2014 12:04:43 GMT
Sime66, From the angle it looks like the clutch is sitting too low. Take the clutch out and fit that thin spacer on top of the thick thrust washer/cog. Or buy a fatter thrust washer (without teeth) and just fit that. SIP sell a lot of thicknesses for just this problem.
When the clutch lever is pulled in (de-clutched) the cog and the crank can then move at different speeds. A small space is required so that the cog is just not touching the thrust washer. If this gap is too big the clutch will judder on pull away.
When the clutch is out put a long bolt/big washer/nut through it and squash the clutch. The cog should turn freely and when fully squashed have a few mm between the big circlip and top clutch plate.
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Post by sime66 on Jun 6, 2014 12:44:58 GMT
Righto, thanks pxguru, that all makes perfect sense. I’ll take cover off, and clutch out. I’ll put the extra spacer in, and possibly make a bit more space in cover if needed because clutch will be slightly higher. Rather than dismantling the clutch immediately, or removing the engine, I will first just compress the clutch, check for free-movement, and get a measurement for clearance between top plate and circlip (I have a compressor – just not used it yet). I can put it all back together and see if I’ve made an improvement, before moving on to more drastic measures, which might well not be needed. If anything more is needed I’ll start with clutch disassembly/inspection/resoaking, but not as a first job. That is a plan and it is logical; it’s what I’m going to do. Thanks very much.
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Post by henri on Jun 6, 2014 19:41:49 GMT
thanks joey ,reading the posts has forced me to give in an take my latest clutch back of an strip an build it myself ,bought it new an compressed it an giv it a shake to check it separated,an bunged it on,its snatched from the beginning an no adjusting has made it better,what i get from being lazy,your post has stopped all the excuses an other things i could try to a halt ,was even blaming my old arthritic hands and the ballless levers i fitted on a whim,coz i'd forgot how crap they are with gloves, guess i'm going to have to strip an check the order of plates now . cheers henri
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Post by pxguru on Jun 7, 2014 5:03:26 GMT
Sime66, While you have the clutch out and compressed you could take out the circlip and check the order of the plates as Joey said.
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Post by sime66 on Jun 7, 2014 5:25:06 GMT
Just about to make a start, had decided it would be sensible to check the plates - won't take 5 mins.
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Post by sime66 on Jun 7, 2014 7:21:11 GMT
· There has been no rubbing, either of the clutch cover, or the web I’ve been dremelling.; there are also no marks at all on the clutch. - I am not a Donkey after all. · I’ve removed the clutch and put the extra spacer in place, ready for reinstallation. · I’ve compressed the clutch, which rattles nicely, and rotates freely but with ‘wet-friction’ – I’ll try to explain that: I don’t know how it should feel. There is no dry-rubbing at all, it is a smooth rotation. There is a fair bit of resistance, like you’d expect between oily plates, but not as free as if it was an air gap. I don’t know if that will be crucial to define better, so I’ll leave it at that for now.The decision to be made is whether I soak the clutch corks and file down the basket to 21-22mm, or put it back as it is and see if the spacer makes the necessary improvement. (putting it back, I can do today; getting a small enough file and doing those properly will take a few extra days.Here’s some photos of where I’m at; they show a cut-out depth of 20mm, and as best I can show, about 2-3mm of free play on the compressed clutch. I am assured that the clutch is assembled correctly, but have time now to take a look; thought I’d get this posted to see if any early-birds have an opinion. I imagine views will be low over weekend, and opinion probably divided, so if I don’t hear, I’m going to put it back for now because it only takes an hour to take it out again if I need to, and the practice is good for me! Have a good weekend chaps. S
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Post by sime66 on Jun 7, 2014 7:34:29 GMT
No hurry today after all. The plates are as described by Joey – thich 1st plate and notched 2nd, but the corks are really dry! I’m going to soak them and get myself a little file. - maybe dremel? Might as well get it right now, rather than rush it. (Note to self – soaking in advance, and storing sealed-up does not work) .
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Post by sime66 on Jun 7, 2014 7:45:53 GMT
For Henri/Joey – to compare notes if/when you look at yours, H:
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Post by henri on Jun 7, 2014 9:17:07 GMT
thanks sime ,ive got a diagram on my shed wall somewhere to jog my memory already ,i was lazy an know i should of stripped an checked plate thickness an cork thickness aswell as order ,as the build quality of whole clutches is fairly bad nowadays .didnt,an now have to pull the clutch an do it right .as they say "do it right first time/do it once,etc" . an the oily resistance you try an describe sounds right ,thats the oils job in between the plates ,to maintain a slight drag ,otherwise the spinning parts coming back into contact with stationary 1's would cause extra wear an tear from the sudden acceleration an a snatching clutch,all plate wear is in that micro-second when they go from off to on or vice-versa.an a snatching clutch can strip the corks of the plates if not bonded perfectly,in older clutches with rivetted corks they disintergrate around the rivets an on the edges . sorry to add to your mix ,but have you read kru251 thread on his experiment with auto-box fluid rather than sae30 oil in the box .theres a lot of info from people there on oils/auto fluids. imo i dont think its the answer but he's reporting a fair few miles without any probs on his scoot an others. an a needle file rather than a dremel ,you'll have to use 1 after dremelling to remove burrs anyway ,its slower but gives a more controlled finer cut.so you can fettle em just right ,ok. an loving the pictures,if your burgeoning career as a "scoot mechanic" dont take off ,maybe haynes will have a job for you ,would mean a commute to devon/somerset as i think thats where there based .lovely in summer,deadly in winter , Henri
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Post by pxguru on Jun 7, 2014 9:41:58 GMT
All looking ok but if you haven't already I would take the slots in the basket to 21mm. Any less is too tight. Keep the internal corners rounded to avoid cracking!
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Post by sime66 on Jun 7, 2014 9:58:44 GMT
I sometimes ignore good advice and cut corners, but for future reference, I will always disassemble and check & soak clutches in future; this is not something to leave to chance. My view was that with my inexperience, it was better to leave well alone, but that was wrong. I have learnt from this experience; it’s actually quite a good project for a rainy Saturday to disassemble and tinker with my first clutch. Scoots tucked up, with exposed bits greased and bagged until tomorrow. There’s loads of International Rugby on today, so I’m settling myself down with drinks (non-alcoholic ) and nibbles to do this filing – just been out to get myself a brand new 7mm square file, which seems perfick for the job. (Don’t tell me if it isn’t, ‘cos I’ve got it and that’s what I’m using) *. As I have the luxury of getting this exactly as I want now, two questions occur: . What is the exact ideal depth, shall I go 21, or 22mm? (Or somewhere in between, or shall I stop fussing like an old woman and get on with it) . If I’m doing all this filing, shall I then reinstall with or without the 0.8mm spacer? . Perhaps, and this is what I’ll do if, heaven forbid, I have to make a decision for myself, I should go 21mm + 0.8mm spacer? (it is 0.8mm, not 0.5mm) I did follow Kru’s earlier posts about ATFs with great interest, and did locate the fluids required, using the references given previously. I am sorely tempted, but haven’t taken the plunge. However don’t rattle anyone’s cage, otherwise you’ll turn my nice tidy thread into a bun-fight on that subject again! – We all know what we all think on the subject, so stop it before you start, chaps. Link to interesting thread here, for anyone curious: vespa.proboards.com/thread/3281/tried-differing-oils-gearbox(Thanks re: photos – I do enjoy photography – (nudge, nudge); and presentation is 2nd nature ‘cos of being lilly-white hands Draughtsman – and I could certainly do with the work!!) [Had to look up 'burgeoning' - I'll use ' flourishing' - like that, cheers!!] Now, I must away to do some filing. If I have any skin on my hands, and if I can get the blood off the keyboard when typing, I’ll post a progress report later. (with photos of finely fettled flats and (NOT)*corners – for inspection)……. *pxguru - just read yours after replying to Henri, noted re 21mm and round corners - glad you said that; I was just about to concentrate on getting them dead square and flat; will have a rethink about corners - have a little round file somewhere.............
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Post by sime66 on Jun 7, 2014 13:05:51 GMT
I've just spent 4 hours of my life on this, and am definately stopping - hopefully it's enough, but by first thing tomorrow it'll have had as much attention as it's going to get. The flash has caught the edges and makes them look worse than they are, but I will tidy them up again before I pack it in. I've got 21mm, as flat as I can, and used a conic diamond jobby in the corners to get a tight radius (measured the tangs on corks at 13-14mm and cut-outs at 15mm, so need to be pretty tight). Corks are soaking, I've got neck and headache; here's some photos - hope I'm close to approval. If it needs more work I'll go back to it after a break (not even had a lettuce sandwich yet): Back in and test ride tomorrow, all being well................
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Post by sbwnik on Jun 7, 2014 13:28:49 GMT
Storing sealed plates in oil does work, I've used it often enough, but you need to have pre-oil soaked plates in a bag (ie soaked and then held up until all the excess oil runs off), not a bag of oil with the plates in! If you're stranded at the side of the road, lob some more oil in the bag while you strip the engine, and then they're ready.
Leave them swimming in oil and you end up with bloated and soft plates.
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bsr65
High Number
Posts: 114
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Post by bsr65 on Jun 7, 2014 18:28:43 GMT
have you checked all the steel plates are flat, if you have a warped one that will cause drag, I once bought a cosa clutch for my mk 1 p200e which dragged badly, and no amount of fettling sorted it, I put the old 7 spring one back in and it worked bang on, you may just have a bad one, good luck with it though
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Post by sime66 on Jun 7, 2014 20:16:41 GMT
I just checked it - the thicker one is either very slightly warped or has a burr or high spot – less than 0.5mm up from flat. I don’t know if that is enough to be a problem or not. Perhaps I’ll be able to get rid of any burrs/high spots with a flat bit of wet-and-dry. Anyway, given the extra spacer behind the clutch, the deepened cut-outs, which I’ve just spent another hour tidying up, and the freshly-soaked corks, and also that this clutch is taken from a running scooter, I’m still going to reassemble and reinstall it to see if there is any improvement, or if it’s been a waste of time. Glad you mentioned it, thanks; not so glad to find something else, just when I thought we might have the clutch sorted, but never mind, tomorrow will tell.
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Post by sime66 on Jun 8, 2014 7:02:59 GMT
All reassembled and back in. Possibly a slight improvement, but definitely not perfect. Still got cable as tight as I can without losing kickstart, still a little drag, but now just OK to live with. I’ll still need neutral at lights, and it’s still sometimes difficult to find. Gear selection when moving is sometimes really good and seems sorted, and then for no apparent reason really tight and not-changing without a fight again. Possibly needs more of the same – deeper cut-outs, possibly time to call the clutch a bag-of-s**t and move on when I can afford a decent one. No more time to waste on it this weekend anyway, I’ll take the cover off in a couple of days, check for rubbing (now it's higher with spacer) etc, etc. and start the whole process again……………….
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Post by pxguru on Jun 8, 2014 10:03:00 GMT
I can't believe that it is stil dragging. It can only be the warpped steel as everything else is now fine. Might be why this clutch was so available?
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