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Post by kru251 on May 6, 2013 20:12:01 GMT
Reason I ask is that having read up a fair bit on how to cure dragging clutches on Royal Enfield motorcycles I have found that many people use Automatic Transmission Fluid. It is thin but has good lubricating properties. I also spoke to my old chief engineer today who confirmed he used it in the gearbox of his Villiers powered Francis Barnett & felt the benefit immediately.
I know my Royal Enfield drags & think the PX clutch on mine is dragging a bit; baulks 2nd to third changes sometimes, so might give this a go. It is mineral oil so will mix with the SAE30 oil that can't be fully removed at drain down time.
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Post by bryno on May 7, 2013 12:20:23 GMT
Hmm, personally never had a problem on any of my scooters running the specified SAE 30, not heard of anyone feel the need to try something different, so I'd be looking for a problem with the clutch/mechanism if it's dragging.. which I'm sure you already have..
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Post by sbwnik on May 7, 2013 20:06:42 GMT
As above. If there's a mechanical problem, solve the problem - don't mask it.
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Post by kru251 on May 7, 2013 20:18:22 GMT
Well, I have just rebuilt the engine (crankshaft seals) so it has all been apart. Checked clutch operation on bench (as you do) and it all cleared. Dragging when engine in chassis so removed just the clutch and checked it again on the bench. A bit draggy with oil around is but it cleared. I also have fitted a different bush (the thing that pushes on the clutch centre) which is slightly longer than the std PX200 one so as to increase the mechanical efficiency of the lever as the normal 'angle' of the arm as designed is poor. Only thing left is to change the friction plates, but I'll try this ATF fliud first as it's a cheaper mod ('cos I have some on ther shelf)
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Post by joey on May 8, 2013 7:31:35 GMT
Not sure about using a thinner oil, especially to cure a clutch problem don't forget it's the actual viscosity of the oil that allows the clutch to well clutch.
With a lower viscosity I think you're going to go from one extreme to the other and end up with slip.
Whether it's standard old style or modern cosa type clutch they do have a proper way to be built, and don't think they'll be done properly from new....... I've so far had to rebuild 3 from Beedspeed.
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Post by sbwnik on May 8, 2013 18:05:09 GMT
The bush is the brass cylinder in the middle of the clutch, the piece you're describing is the pressure plate, and the brass piece on top is generally known as the plunger - is it this that you've replaced with a longer one? Where from?
I'd not use anything that thins the oil out, they'll end up slipping more and you'll eventually be sat there, going nowhere.
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Post by shaunpx on May 8, 2013 19:10:20 GMT
Just googled this and atf can come in sae 30 and gets used in manual transmissions fairly frequently especially in racing circles the only thing is that the characteristics are different to sae30 the downside being premature wear. Thought I had found a solution to the cosa drag there, files it is then
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Post by kru251 on May 8, 2013 20:55:11 GMT
Well that brass/phosphor bronze bit is also called a clutch 'pushrod' in Haynes terminology. Longer, more efficient one?
Got it from a Vespa dealer for a different model Vespa and had to cut it down, but I know the arm efficiency is now far better than before so really not sure what is up.
More investigation required, but I am still gonna try the ATF as it has me intrigued. Can't agree with you Joey that the viscosity allows the clutch to clutch as in work. The oil provides the slip ability but the friction of the cork onto the steel plates is how it works and this is more a function of the clutch spring pressure. I'd agree it might lead to some premature wear but so does a dragging clutch. I will report back once ATF trial is carried out.
This below is from a clutch technical bulletin by the very well established Hitchc**ks who are Royal Enfield gerus. This is another 'old' bike design that is supposed to use SAE30.
The type of oil used in the primary drive case can have a marked effect on clutch action. We
recommend the use of ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid). ATF is an effective, robust lubricant; it
is also clean and light
and performs well in the primary drive case. There are many types of ATF for different
applications in motor vehicle automatic transmissions, but, as ATF is being used only for very
basic lubrication in the Bullet primary drive, any type of normally available ATF will be suitable.
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Post by joey on May 9, 2013 11:10:23 GMT
Kru, trust me kid the oil does have an effect on the "clutching" action. smear oil on all your plates (steels and corks,) and lift them, they'll stick together.
The viscosity of the oil is important as it's "shear" properties decrease as the oil gets thinner. i.e. the thicker the oil the better it's shear properties.
Too thick and the plates will never separate, too thin and they'll just slip like a bitch.
I'm an ex instructor on Challenger (tank) and we had to learn all about oils & lubes as part of our specialist course so oils are in my blood (quite literally.)
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Post by kru251 on May 9, 2013 20:56:03 GMT
Joey, I realise it has an effect and wasn't meaning it isn't an integral part of the operation, but ATF does have the ability to allow the plates to slip easier, but not slip totally as the clutch on the Royal Enfields are very similar to Vespa ones (slightly larger) but that's on the 350 & 500cc Bullets making 17 & 22bhp respectively.
So, I WILL give it a try as easy to reverse the process with a drain down (yeah, I know you don't get all of it out. I will be the test pilot here!!!!!
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Post by sbwnik on May 9, 2013 21:42:33 GMT
Don't do it.
As for the longer push rod, you do realise that your clutch is now going to be at least partially engaged at all times? Not good, and it'll wear away in no time.
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Post by joey on May 9, 2013 22:42:37 GMT
It'll have to wait until next Wednesday but I'll post a pic where a plunger has welded itself to the pressure plate due to being in constant contact...... result was knackered clutch cam and cracked housing...............
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Post by kru251 on May 10, 2013 7:28:43 GMT
Hi Boyz,
Credit me with a bit eh? The clearance was carefully checked to ensure that the pushrod/plunger WAS clearing the centre pressure plate. How.? Well a bit like squish clearance on a piston I used the simple expedient of lots of measuring and then a bit of white tack to see the clearance. All fine so no worries about welded bits, slightly compressed clutch blah blah
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Post by kru251 on May 11, 2013 15:30:11 GMT
OK, went and got an MOT today (well not me, but the PX) so went with the SAE30 in the 'box. OK, but not that great a gear change when cold although 'acceptable' when warm..................... but not really that nice. Got home (with the scoot having passed the mot) and drained down the SAE30 while it was warm. The only way to remove 100% of the gearbox oil is to split the cases so there is always some left in the case. Added the red, Automatic Transmission Fluid to the correct 'dribble-out-of-the-hole' level. Took about ten - twelve minutes total to sort this so a good chance to test 'back to back' with the SAE30 version while it was still fresh in the mind. Pushed it outside and started it up. Popped the garage door down and rode off with rain clouds looking ominous. Result? An absolute bl%dy revelation!!!! Clutch was really light in action, gear change was so sweet, and the whole scooter rode like it should do (but never really has). OMG.  That is just great. Like riding another scooter altogether. In fact, I backed the clutch adjuster off a fraction to give more slack/clearance at the lever. Could only do about 10k before the heavens opened and I had to get home ASAP, but what a nice piece of kit this is now. Worth trying if you have a dragging clutch IMHO. PS. Just did another 15K before the heavens opened again. I couldn't wait to ride it you see as so much more 'civilised' ;D |
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Post by sbwnik on May 12, 2013 4:09:52 GMT
Question now is 'how long will the clutch last' then?
Hope you've got it right!
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Post by kru251 on May 12, 2013 18:20:03 GMT
Well, I'm also running in a new ali 200cc barrel that I fitted at the rebuild (after the clutch side crank seal went) so went out today to see my mother (yeah, bright sunshine on leaving home and raining all the way back), but did 54 miles OK today on lots of curvy country, up hill and down dale roads so up and down the box etc plenty. Still a dream to ride.
I think the clutch will last less time now. Why? Well I actually want to go out riding it now as it's so nice, so it's gonna get used more!!!!!!!!! ;D
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Post by shaunpx on May 13, 2013 9:42:00 GMT
How often are you planning on changing the ATF Kru just that I've done a bit more reading on this and it sounds like it needs changing more often than sae 30 oil, what do your friends with classic bikes do mileage wise before changing and what grade ATF did you use?
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Post by kru251 on May 13, 2013 17:24:24 GMT
Shaunpx. Well I used the one as recommended for the Royal Enfields by Hitchc**ks as they are well trusted supplier IMHO as I have an RE and their advice has always been spot'-on'. The clutch on the Vespa is very similar in design to the RE one; only smaller. So, I used the Ford one listed as ESP - M2C - 166H.That one is good for CVT transmissions as well as power steering boxes and auto gearboxes of course. If I had to drain this out and top up every 2000 miles it really wouldn't be a hardship to have this level of gearchange pleasure . Remember that there is probably two thirds ATF to one third SAE30 in mine, so still a fair bit of original stuff left. If you're interested in the specifications........................? www.chrysanindustries.com/pdf/products/ford166h.pdf |
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Post by shaunpx on May 13, 2013 20:58:14 GMT
Cheers for the info Kru. Also what make sae 30 are you using and do you mix it with the atf in the 2:1 ratio prior to placing it in the gearbox?
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Post by kru251 on May 13, 2013 21:30:13 GMT
The SAE30 oil is as supplied by Allstyle Scooters and is made by Rock Oil.
I have just rebuilt the engine so it was totally 'dry' when the SAE30 was added. When you drain down you can't get rid of all the oil due to the design so hence not as much ATF was added to get to the oil-dribbling-out-the-level-hole situation. About 250ml from totally dry/empty and about 200 ish ml for the draindown/top-up I think.
I have to admit to not checking the refill. Just drained it down then added the ATF.
I am running this scooter in so will be covering some miles in the near future (OK, kilometres as that's what the speedo reads in). I intend running in for around 550 ish K so will keep an update on this site as to the clutch deterioration/destruction or perfection as I see it.
I am not saying it won't have a deteriorating effect, but if a major supplier says to use it then I am happy. Certainly I lurve the results so far.
It's not a marketing ploy to sell more clutch plates by them either lol.
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Post by kru251 on May 14, 2013 16:52:52 GMT
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Post by joey on May 14, 2013 17:17:10 GMT
That states it's an equivalent for SAE 90 which is Lammy gearbox oil, I always thought it was too heavy for a Vespa?
Hope the ATF works out fella, it'll be interesting if you kept us informed as to how it's going.
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Post by shaunpx on May 14, 2013 18:56:33 GMT
If you read up on the net it seems like its been a common practise for years to put atf into manual transmissions on both cars and motorcycles I've not read of any problems that have occured due to it yet, the guy who has the car parts place near where I live told me he puts it in transmission of his BMW motor bike and has been all round europe on it without any problems, besides in Haynes it mentions that you can use either sae 30 motor oil or sae 80 gear oil so take ye pick I reckon, and a big round of applause from me kru for being the first person I've heard to try it on a scoot
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Post by kru251 on May 14, 2013 23:34:29 GMT
Thanks Shaunpx.  I will of course keep the forum up-to-date if there are any issues, but I hope not as this Vespa gearchange (on mine) is the best it has EVER been. ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by joey on May 15, 2013 14:09:07 GMT
Kru, have you got the actual spec of the fluid as if yours doesn't go bang anytime soon I may give it a go myself.
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Post by kru251 on May 15, 2013 18:10:11 GMT
I used the Ford one listed as ESP - M2C - 166H.
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Post by kru251 on May 27, 2013 6:21:34 GMT
OK, Scoot has done about 450 miles on the ATF (nearly 200 this w/e). Thought I'd check it out. Drained it down and there is some colour loss (it's quite a red colour to start with) but nothing untoward found in it when strained through a cloth filter. So, popped it all back again!!!!!
Gear change still soooooooo much better than the SAE 30 days.
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Post by kru251 on Jun 9, 2013 19:30:33 GMT
Just short of 900 miles on the clock now on the ATF. I'd say there is no difference over it's performance now to what it was when first added, and a h*ll of a lot better than when the SAE30 was installed.
I'm going to stick to it for obvious reasons.................................and yes I am riding it tons more than before because it is so much nicer-a-scooter to ride.
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vespasian
High Number
greater manchester
Posts: 235
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Post by vespasian on Jun 24, 2013 19:13:45 GMT
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Post by kru251 on Jun 25, 2013 16:10:52 GMT
LOL. Reading this thread you wouldn't expect me to say ANY SAE 30 oil was any good in comparison now would you?
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That is just great. Like riding another scooter altogether. In fact, I backed the clutch adjuster off a fraction to give more slack/clearance at the lever. Could only do about 10k before the heavens opened and I had to get home ASAP, but what a nice piece of kit this is now.
