vespasian
High Number
greater manchester
Posts: 235
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Post by vespasian on Jun 25, 2013 17:33:15 GMT
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Post by kru251 on Jun 25, 2013 17:52:12 GMT
Well that's all right then if it's on eBay. Bit like standing on a cliff and saying, "Well it must be all right. Ten thousand lemmings can't be wrong"
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vespasian
High Number
greater manchester
Posts: 235
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Post by vespasian on Jun 25, 2013 21:17:30 GMT
kru,,yes its on ebay,but it is a proper scooter shop,, i read your thread before commenting,dude i have a feeling your gearbox will blow up some where down the line
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Post by kru251 on Jun 25, 2013 23:09:46 GMT
kru,,yes its on ebay,but it is a proper scooter shop,, i read your thread before commenting,dude i have a feeling your gearbox will blow up some where down the line Gearboxes don't blow up. Engines do that. Gearboxes break and this is the clutch that would be most at risk.. And as it has been good for over 6,000 miles on my Royal Enfield and 1000 miles plus on the Vespa I'll take that bet with you; willingly............................................
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Post by bryno on Jun 26, 2013 11:04:07 GMT
May have a go with this, how does it mix with petrol
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vespasian
High Number
greater manchester
Posts: 235
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Post by vespasian on Jun 26, 2013 17:41:15 GMT
kru,,yes its on ebay,but it is a proper scooter shop,, i read your thread before commenting,dude i have a feeling your gearbox will blow up some where down the line Gearboxes don't blow up. Engines do that. Gearboxes break and this is the clutch that would be most at risk.. And as it has been good for over 6,000 miles on my Royal Enfield and 1000 miles plus on the Vespa I'll take that bet with you; willingly............................................
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Post by kru251 on Jun 26, 2013 23:08:40 GMT
May have a go with this, how does it mix with petrol LOL. It can't fix blown crankshaft seals ha ha
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Post by bryno on Jun 27, 2013 11:59:47 GMT
Clearly neither can I
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Post by kru251 on Apr 7, 2014 18:25:16 GMT
An update 07-04-14. At 2,300 miles further on. Still on same ATF in gearbox. Still the same great gearchange. Don't even think about it now!!!
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Post by henri on Apr 7, 2014 19:05:29 GMT
have experience with "burman" 3speed an 4 speed boxes ,aswell as other brit bike boxes an scoots too. an the loads an wear on boxes an particulary the selectors/cruciforms is different .different designs need different oil's ,as there expected to undergo totally different loads/temps/pressures.always use sae30 in my vespa's an st90 for lamms an brit bikes mostly ep90 in gearbox an chaincase (where clutch runs),as manuals only state "good qaulity gearoil" for bikes ,an thats vegetable based not mineral,thats why it stinks when old.not sure but auto fluids have detergent in them like fully synthetic car oil,but coz modern bikes clutches run in the oil thats why fully synthetic bike oil is a different formula without the detergents,an why it cost at least half as much as again as car stuff.auto boxes do have clutches but of different design to manual an need clean oil/filters to shunt properly (change ratio's).have seen how quickly a clutch goes when car oil is used/abused in a bike an dont reccomend it .i have used whatever oil ive got in desperate moments ,mostly on my bsa b50 chaincase ,that sort of ran on a "total-loss" system that needed topping up every 50 miles.so reckoned whatever bottle-end oil i threw in wouldnt be there long enough to do any damage . reckon ya auto fluid is masking whatever clutch problem you where having an is probably damaging your friction plates aswell. whilst clutch was out did you de-burr/polish the basket an plate-tongues/centres.an check for warp on steels.it dont take much to give slip/drag . Henri
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Post by bryno on Apr 7, 2014 20:49:44 GMT
I'm also running ATF, probably a thousand or so miles, TBH box and clutch feels exactly the same as when on SAE 30, no better no worse..
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Post by henri on Apr 8, 2014 8:30:10 GMT
was thinking in bed last night of your longer clutch plunger (hands above sheet of course),had thought about something similar myself as the angle/leverage from the arm is crap .which model plunger did ya modify to fit ,as thats a easier option than re-engineering the arm itself to give more leverage/throw. also that can cause the clutch to be over-thrown/compressed causing binding .have found it on brit-bikes where stronger clutches are put in an arm extended to make it easyer at lever,leads to very fast wear on the push-rod (plunger)an bearing the clutch spins on . am still of opinion tho that enfield clutches run in a oil bath in chaincase separate to gearbox an vespa's its more off a splash lubrication with common oil to gearbox ,there quite different applications ,but applaud your bravery in trying it out on your px .do notice tho there's no mention of any plans for use in ya lammies ,H
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Post by kru251 on Apr 9, 2014 15:14:31 GMT
Well, when I next strip it down I'll examine it all clutch-wise but so far so good! As to the plunger it was a Vespa part that I got from Allstyle scooters. It was too long so I had to cut it down but as to what model? Not sure. Leverage is much better as you can imagine though as 'strike angle' is far better than std.
Not used in my Lammies as have had no need. A friend had issues with his PX 125 baulking second gear occasionally. Tried ATF. No issues since so ?
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Post by henri on Apr 9, 2014 17:10:45 GMT
most people ive noticed baulking going up 1st to second can be put down to riding style an trying to rush the box ,being use to a burmah box not a problem you'd have .or its a wear/burr on the cruciform/gearshaft ,cant think how atf could cure this problem unless its inducing a momentary tiny bit of slip an slowing down his change . must admit this thread has got me interested an pondering ,always use manufacturer/designed spec oils were possible ,but the original clutch design was 40-odd years old an def on its limit by the time the px came out.an thats before tuning/kitting or increase to 200cc from earlier smaller gs/rallys . not brave enough to try it on my scoots as a test-bed tho,will wait til ya strip it an examine ,am more interested in wear rate of gearbox components/bearings an cruciform ,as we all know px clutches wear/slip/drag, a possible cure is still good news ,can live with more frequent box re-builds if my wrist gets a easyier time when riding/clutching.as it already sounds like breaking twigs.H
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Post by kru251 on Apr 9, 2014 23:17:50 GMT
Henri,
I don't know why it works; just does. Did an old Francis Barnet motorcycle that had a draggin' clutch. It sorted that one too. Strange but true!!!
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Post by glscoot on Apr 9, 2014 23:29:44 GMT
I have to say, i have not read this post all the way through, but why, stop fcking about and just put 30sae in your gear box. what i have learned in the past is, stick with what you know and trust. ok fanny about with different brands if you want, but at least if you have 30sae in there & you can't blame your oil for anything that goes wrong. guys new to scootering must be asking what the F now. gary
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Post by bryno on Apr 10, 2014 7:51:51 GMT
LOL Gary, but really messing around with oils is no different to messing around with different kits, exhausts, plugs, porting, timing, fuel oil mix, blah blah, we all have a very personal and subjective view on what is 'best' and surely messing around with stuff and looking for improvements is one of the main reasons to keep us interested in our little shopping bikes?
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Post by glscoot on Apr 10, 2014 9:05:07 GMT
LOL Gary, but really messing around with oils is no different to messing around with different kits, exhausts, plugs, porting, timing, fuel oil mix, blah blah, we all have a very personal and subjective view on what is 'best' and surely messing around with stuff and looking for improvements is one of the main reasons to keep us interested in our little shopping bikes? Agree, with the above. But the engine oil is more about preserving the internal parts of the engine. In my view, unless some grass munching oil hating scientist can convince me that putting carrot juice in my engine is going to make it better, then Im sticking to 30sae and I would advise that anyone unsure should do the same. I like to experiment with, this & that on scooters, but oil and petrol are above my knowledge and always will be. Just wanted to make my point to anyone who is unsure, stick with 30sae. gary
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Post by bryno on Apr 10, 2014 10:54:40 GMT
Don't disagree, I only did ATF as an experiment but for me it's made no real difference either way, so next change I'm back to SAE30 as I know it's 'safe' and it does exactly what I need it to.
But, worth considering how oil tech has moved on since SAE 30 was spec'd back in late '50's? as has the level of tuning people are now taking scoots to so there may well be better products on the market now for certain applications.. i.e on hot Lammies alot of people now using 10/40 synthetic motor oil rather than good old SAE 90.
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Post by partanen on Apr 10, 2014 16:17:33 GMT
Why not GL-4 as Piaggio recommends? I admit I'm not specialist, but these cosa clutches have more plates. Maybe that's why these needs thinner oil than SAE 30 is. Ofcourse SAE 30 for older clutches.
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Post by kru251 on Apr 10, 2014 22:47:12 GMT
I have to say, i have not read this post all the way through, but why, stop fcking about and just put 30sae in your gear box. what i have learned in the past is, stick with what you know and trust. ok fanny about with different brands if you want, but at least if you have 30sae in there & you can't blame your oil for anything that goes wrong. guys new to scootering must be asking what the F now. gary Quite right too Gary. Stick with what was the best oil you could get in the 60's! I expect you haven't used semi or fully synthetic two stroke oil yet either. Give it a go...............LMAO
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Post by glscoot on Apr 10, 2014 23:19:42 GMT
I actually use Putoline or SIP's 30sae and Groundsman 2 stroke (bought 10l just last month) and plan on using these oils until there is conclusive evidence there are better ones out there.
gary
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Post by kru251 on Apr 11, 2014 17:59:58 GMT
What the one made technically for garden equipment (with the picture of a Strimmer on the front)? STRIMMER OILCertainly cheap enough!!!!!
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Post by henri on Apr 13, 2014 12:25:44 GMT
technically made for garden equipment ,as in a small capacity 2 stroke engine thats poorly maintained an used with only 2 throttle positions ,off or full on.air/fan cooled not water,could go on but its already sounding like most scoots i know.you can spend lots of cash on fancy 2 stroke oils ,low-ash,clean burn,mostly developed to get 2 strokes through emissions test,or even to make exhaust smell different,bubble-gum flavour exhaust smoke anyone.developed for modern synthetic motorcross engines. you pays ya cash an takes your choice.i always buy the cheap bulk oil as its way over spec for a engine designed 50 years ago ,unless racing or tuning there's no need to pay for fancy oils ,most of the time all your getting is the "strimmer"oil in a fancy bottle with a nice piccy of a bike on it .if you go in my local halfords there's all there fancy oils at 10er upwards for 500ml ,tucked away in corner is the mower oil ,10 for a litre an if you read the specs on bottles there the same .makes it a no-brainer for a tight git like me .H
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Post by kru251 on Apr 13, 2014 22:43:10 GMT
Well, Henri one of my PALS club members (Petersfield And Liss Scooterists) thought the same as you. We said to use good stuff but he insisted it would be ok. Well it seized and bent a rod. Costly mistake and since using a better class of Semi Synthetic after rebuild it hasn't happened again. Coincidence? As Agent Gibbs says in NCIS "I don't believe in coincidences" !!!
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