Restoration of my VBB1T 1961

[crooky]

Hi
I've just introduced myself on the intro page and switched to here for advice etc. I started this project to learn about engines and bodywork on a project that was manageable. (I've also scooted for 20 years so I have the passion).

www.flickr.com/photos/127717930@N06/

If that link works you'll see my VBB as it is today. I started this determined to keep it 100% original. I acquired a working rebuilt donor engine from a similar aged bike but refused to use it. Opting instead for swapping some of the parts but sticking with the original engine casing. I've chosen the same path for the chassis. I've checked the chassis number and it comes back to a VBB1T 1961 Italian Build. Awaits date certificate. The headset is original with clam shaped speedo and round headlight. I have a tax disc that was screwed to the bike from 1976 and links it back to a town in Italy. I have no other paperwork for the bike but I know about the registration requirements etc.

I haven't touched the bodywork other than removed the old trim etc which was done for! The cowls are all original and in good overall condition. The rust seems very much like surface rust although it's taken hold on the left side of the floor pan more than anywhere else. An area of concern is the tunnel - ADVICE - am I looking at taking the bottom off and sorting that out or is there another option?

I'm only 4 weeks into the project and I keep changing my mind about the direction to take this. I have a petrol head neighbour who planted the seed about keeping it original (Patina??) but I'm not sure if you guys think it's too rusty for that??

Anyway nice to be here and look forward to hearing any views or comments about the bike. Lots more pictures taken if anyone interested too.

[crooky]

www.flickr.com/photos/127717930@N06/sets/72157648424734346/

Here's some more - I hope you can see them.

[sime66]

Your links are working fine - lovely project.
I've got no useful advice about your queries, so just interest and encouragement from me, but I'll follow your progress closely.
No such thing as too many photos; get stuck in and keep the posts and photos coming.

(The time-served shed-dwellers will no doubt inundate you with constructive comments and advice before too long).

[henri]

nice base for a project ,from photo's i cant see any major issues with the tunnel, the 2 major rot-spots are usually round the brake pedal area ,an where seat arch meets center tunnel,the "saddle" its called ,its twin skin there an a bugger to do without takin floor off, check for bulges/ripples where rust has expande between skins an if none i'd leave well alone,
are the gear cables n loom still in ,as vbb's 1's run down a metal pipe from where leggys n floor meet to the rear ,if there rusted in at rear there hard to change without a local cut n shut ,
if possible its always best to patch (butt welded) the floor an replace floor supports ,a new floor is a major job an needs real skill to get right ,1st is frame straight , look from rear n line up center seam n seat/tank mounting center line with the stem by eye, any thing not right get a chalk line/straight edge an check. an measure from the peak of seat arch nose to the outer track of cable run around top steering bearing , should be 14 3/8" give or take a 1/4" ,an feel the curve at bottom of leggys behind front wheel as they often crease there if bent,
if bent theres a guy in cumbria with a douglas jig ,bout 75-90 quid for straightening, plus travel costs,lots use parcel monkee at about 25-30 each way. but if ya adventurous an going to take floor off its not out of diy scope to straighten a vespa ,
if ya do the floor,either replace or large patches first job is to weld a scaffold bar/3-4" box section from the measuring points mentioned above ,if ya dont it will distort , for tips on how to do a floor check the vespasmallframe forum stickys/tech bit under welding tips ,will give ya a idea of how its done ,as i mentioned in introduction thread ive just done a sportique that was rotten around engine mounts/saddle n bottom 2" center tunnel n bottom of leggys ,an am half way through welding a seriously bent/rotten vbb1t ,ive loads of pictures an can answer any questions,
but as i said above,given the choice i'd always avoid a floor replacement unless really needed ,get all paint off n inspect ,an unless holed/really flakey i'd treat rust n skim filler over any pockmarks .H

[crooky]

That's useful thank Henri. I'll do the measurements but it seems really straight. I can't see any raised seems so that's positive. There's certainly welding to be done (usual cracks to edging of leg shield and rear floor corners) but overall it seems very solid. I really want to avoid removing the floor to keep the integrity/originality there. I'm going to have the frame blasted (Unless I've a change of heart and keep it as it is) over the next few days so I'm hoping they can get as far down into the tunnel as possible. REALLY want to avoid it rusting from the inside out.
The cables and loom are out. Everything was so buggered I just had to pull the lot through. I'm assuming the new ones will thread through as it's a continual pipe through the frame? Any advice on lube when refitting cables and loom?
I had to angle grind the rear brake pedal off too as it was totally seized, as was the headset pinch bolt, and the steering bearing race, and the clutch nut, and the main shaft castle nut...........you get the picture

I guess once the frame is blasted I'll know much better what I'm dealing with.

Photos to follow once the frame is blasted - but any more views/comments in the meantime appreciated.

[bryno]

Great project mate, I did a VBA a few years ago, build thread here, your frame is in better nick!

vespa.proboards.com/thread/543/vespa-vba-restoration-project-finished

I had John McLauchlin in Cumbria check the frame over before I got too deep into the project, whilst you have the bare frame it's worth at least doing a quick spirit level and plum bob check on yours.. engine bolt in and set the frame level to that with spirit level on the bolt, then drop a plumb bob down the outside of the fork tube to see if the fork tube runs true.

Cables are easy enough IIRC wiring loom first then cables, access is ok whilst its a bare frame without the forks in as you can get your hands inside the frame, only tricky bit is fishing the brake light wiring out of the small hole in the frame. Oh and clutch cable must run up the middle of the 2 gear cables at the top of the fork tube.

[vespasco]

That looks pretty solid ☺
Its a contender for the 'patina' look...
Good luck with your project

[bigd]

Very nice project Crooky, I hope it comes together for you, the lads on here will keep you right.

[crooky]

Cheers guys. I've bitten the full restoration bullet and the chassis went in today for blasting. Although it won't be done until next week so still time to back out I'm opting for the blast and a coat of weld primer which should allow me plenty of time to do my welding. I'm hoping that's the right option but put me straight if not. Great thread Bryno above thanks mate - that's exactly where I'm heading I think so I'll have another read later. Once the blast is done I'll post the photos. Should get my crank back tomorrow (main case bearings needed pulling as stuck on both sides) so I'll have some more questions as I pull the engine back together. Thanks again.

[henri]

a blast n weld prime is def the right first step, then ya can see whats what , make a list n start ticking em off, dont loose heart if list is long ,ive found that stalled projects often end on flea bay (where i snap em up cheap n finish em) but the guys who persevere an do a bit every night/weekend finish them eventually , even if its changing a bulb,polishing a trim bit or just internet cruising for bits ,so long as ya can tick 1 off the list you can see progress ,an wont lose the faith,
for engine bits on earlier vesp's sip is good ,an ive used allstyles n disco-dez in this country,most of e bays an other dealers concentrate on the p series or more modern . an you'll here horror storys bout indian stuff ,but ive found if ya steer clear of there stator plates/flywheels for lectronic conversions most of the other stuff can be ok,stick with the older established firms an simpler bits an there fine,after all more vbb types where built in india than ever where in italy ,
the veteran vespa club might have more/better clues to spares ,i aint a club-joiner so dont know, but for bearings a internet search will give sizes an a bearing supplyer will sell genuine skf standards for half the price of a scoot shop, an genuine lml parts are ok ,H

[bryno]

^ all good advice there. Engine wise the VBB is suprisingly nippy, my VBA with a VBB gearbox did an easy 50 plus and got there pretty quick, there are now 177 kits available for them if you want a bit more go, mine stayed as a 150.

All engine parts readily available, I ended up buying a few engines for bits and pieces as old 2 ports are cheap and easy to get hold of.

Bill Drake is good for genuine NOS, good repro or 2nd hand Vespa bits, he has soooo much stuff as he's been collecting it since the 1960's! always very realistic on prices as well.

Look forward to following your progress

[crooky]

Main crank case bearings help: ASAP
Paid £45 for full set engine bearings called NBC. Too cheap?
Fitted main ones into case fine with heat. Used old bearings as drift.
Refitted crank to left side. Stiff but went on with heat.
Refitted right side engine but really hard to fit. Pushed down kick start fine. Lots of banging so stopped.
While stopped I pushed/pulled con rod. Movement is quite stiff.
Resplit engine and felt case bearings in case. Not running free and seemed stiff.
Decided to take bearings back out to check. Put on my finger and spun them but they stick. Bearings defo not running smooth and free. Not 100% sure if they were before fit.
My thoughts are new case bearings as something has gone wrong? Badly made? Fitting method?
Is crank little stiff after rebuild and if so by how much or should it run free and loose like before tear down?

[henri]

dont know nbc ,i stick with skf , indian /piaggio standard an good for non-tuned motors, n cheap from bearing supplyers,
my routine is bearings in freezer ,24 hours,heat cases with heat gun ,too hot to touch, bearings slide in ,dose em with 2 stroke n stick crank in freezer , 24 hours , heat bearings n cases from opposite side to seal not quite as hot, slide crank into left hand side ,centering conrod by eye, dont forget kickstart pinion ,i have once,heat right side n slide on whilst crank still chilly ,should go together with only light taps with rubber mallet to get positioning dowels at bottom of gearbox to go in ,
if ya bearings wont spin easy youve managed to damage em ,an need to replace , its easily done , could be the bearings werent ok out the box ,spin em up before fitting an after aswell ,then you'll know thats done ok , if after cases go together its tight again i'd suspect you need to check crank n "true" it ,its about 30-35 quid to get done ,can be diy-ed if youve the tools , H

[crooky]

OK gents the shot blasting and priming is done. I also managed to solve my crank bearing issue so the con rod is running very smoothly now so thanks. Had to order a new flywheel, stator and clutch plates though so they're on their way from SIP.

Check out the link here to see the result of the blast and prime.
www.flickr.com/photos/127717930@N06/sets/72157648809718061/

This has thrown up a few questions - take a look at the floor pan - I knew that's where the rust was at its worse - do you think it's a replacement pan? I was hoping to weld the holes. That said, and I hope you can see it from the photos, there is a 'mottled' or 'orange peel' effect. I think Mark Paxton calls it pitting? It is very shallow and looks ok to skim fill but need your guidance on this one. The rest of the frame is really solid and even the 'glass half empty' negative blaster was pleasantly surprised. Don't you just hate those negative family and friends - 'what did you buy that for?' - makes me even more determined

[crooky]

PS - despite me asking for a weld primer the blaster put zinc coating on it and said I need to grind it back before welding? So I'm guessing light grinding around the weld areas will suffice rather than welding with the since coating still covering the spot? He did cover the chassis number for me though so not a complete numpty!

[henri]

right first off ,if welding strip the paint right back or fumes will give you "zinc flu" , achy/fever n swollen joints ,not nice , so atleast 3-4" back from weld ,shud do this anyway with non-zinc paint aswell as burnt paint fumescan be toxic ,an were welding you want draft free conditions so shielding gas isnt blown away ,which means neither is toxic fumes ,tho having a airline to blow on welds to cool them n prevent heat distortion will disperse fumes but only after the welder has had his head stuck right in em during welding, H&S lecture over ,
i always strip paint back an only leave weld-thru on surfaces that cant be painted/rust protected after welding ,it will cause lumpy welds n extrusions that need grinding from the slag caused by being burnt off , anyways that frame looks like its got all the standards rust/crack issues , plus pocking from standing water rust on floor, the pits can be covered with a fine skim of fine surface filler ,unless ya want to take a year doing em 1 by 1 with knifing putty, the splits at rear are mostly caused by stand damage ,check the floor where stand crosspiece rubs ,specially between mounting holes ,as ive seen vbb's rubbed paper thin here an with hairline cracks 1/2 the width of frame, the nearside floor holes can be patched tho i'd be tempted to buy a legshield/floor repair panel for the more forward ones ,allstyles scooter do a pair for 24quid ,will post a piccy of them in action so ya can see what i mean ,it will also give you a true curve an edge beading on that side .if ive got any i'll post pictures of my beading tools ,if not theres a thread on the smallframe forum under "forum beading tools" thats got photo's n instructions on how to knock em up ,smallies beeding is 8mm but vbb's an other large frames is 10mm other than that the tools are handy for a resto, an to prevent blow through n large welds that need grinding copper plumbing pipe can be bent to shape n clamped behind splits when welding the edge cracks . H

[henri]

sorry mate,keep gettin a "forums exceeding attachment limit" message n refusal to up-load any pics , H

[bryno]

^ You need to upload to photobucket or similar and upload the link on here

[henri]

yes,i tried that bryno , but am a total computer hating fat fingered numpty , jus pm'd him n got a e mail address n will send direct , or honestly my missus will as i'll only end up ordering chinese cuddly toys by the hundred or mailing the vatican or suchlike , H

[sime66]

Photos from Photobucket are linking in OK, H (Saturday AM). I think the key to your problem is uploading direct to the forum.
I upload my images to my own FLIKR/Photobucket account, which has no effect on any quotas/limits on this forum, because my images in this forum are just links to files already uploaded elsewhere, and using my quota in those accounts.
The method of uploading into the forum, by adding attachments to your posts, has no benefit that I can see, and as you and others have commented on, eventually bogs down/overloads the forum itself to the extent where you have either reached your own quota or combined to reach the forums quota.
I still reckon it’s easier once you’ve sussed using something like FLIKR or Photobucket to upload, and then inserting links to them in your posts (not attaching them); I did a guide for this method before; you can find it here:
vespa.proboards.com/thread/4282/quick-guide-posting-photos-photobucket

Before responding, don’t bite my head off; I’m trying to help.
Well, you can if you like…

[crooky]

Henri (and others of course ) I'm going to have to do the floor replacement I think. I've flipped the scoot and I can see pitting running the length of the tunnel on the underside and ending 3 or 4 inches up the leg shield. I strongly suspect the tunnel needs sorting and I don't feel comfortable leaving it so now's the time to go for it. Besides I bought her to hone/learn skills so why not! I've measured the gap between the seat and cable run on steering column and it's as near as dam it to your measurements above. So I'll weld the bar in place for sure.
First question - what's the floor I need from all styles? Is it the Vintage Floor at the top of the list for a VBB? 515mm long and 490mm wide?
Second question - as you know from the pictures there is pitting up some of the leg shield too which reaches further than the new floor would. Can you/would you also buy the two floor/leg shield panels and cut a section from the front to weld in and make up the shortness of the main floor or is this too much tinkering? Maybe just do the floor and weld/skim the last few inches?
I hope that makes sense.

[henri]

1st, thanks sime,no head biting here ,did read ya bucket post n amazingly it made sense sort of , still i'm still thinkin its all trickery n devils work , an have had the "villagers" round with flaming torches n pitchforks once already an talked my way out of a lynching ,darent risk another , will get missus's to do it an blame her,ok,
right , pitting on floor wasnt too much of a strength issue,the floors there just to put ya feet on really, prob why its called a floor eh, its about 5% of the longituidal strength outboard of the tunnel ,but between the centre seams its 25% of the spine box section an equally 25% strength , excessive pitting or rot here has to be dealt with , whats excessive is debatable/personal opinion ,
so nitty gritty ,ya want to learn brush up skills ,does that include welding ,as i wouldnt advise learning welding by doing a floor , it is possible but a steep learning curve , on the smallie forum check out the project thread "one word ambitious" ,thats a guy who got carried away with a spot weld cutter n ended up with a vesp shaped jigsaw ,he got it back together in end i think but cant remember if he actually finished the project after all. if welding is ya plan i'll post ya sum tips n dont-does ,but too long too type now ,my fat typing finger is sore already.
the allstyles floor panel is one ive put eyes on an looked the better quality end of scale ,but even they have a measurement disclaimer on sizes ,+-10mm if memory serves , as some sold are awful ,oversize/undersize an most come short of the flap that goes up the rear mudgaurd arch,but i'm sure ya vbb shud have the later panel they describe as sprint/rally/super , with 3 floor supports an the x shaped strengthening indents between them ,460mm wide , measure ya floor/leggy width n check for shape of supports n indents ,earlyier wide mounts frames dont have the indents an plainer supports , a italian vbb n a indian 1 an the douglas sportique i did all had the 460mm wide floors , will check in morning but am pretty sure,am just bout to e mail ya sum hardcore welding/scooter porn piccys ,dont panic i dont feature in any of em, but should be able to see bits i mean ,an also design n shape/size of there leggy repair panels ,at 24 a pair def worth it for time saved makin up repair panel for nearside alone .
an any shortness make up at rear ,easyier to hide/cover there n you'll have to weld the extra flap on anyway , will get mailing now,ok , H

[henri]

all done ,sum hardcore scoot/welding porn in ya inbox ,hope ya secetery has a sense of humour as thats how i described it in the subject/headings box, might be sum explaining to do at work on monday or if your "management" reads it first , whoops ,wud like to say i'm sorry , but i'm not ,cheers henri

[crooky]

Nice one - luckily I am the management and I'm not allowed to have a secretary - something about keeping my hands to myself she said - I bought a scooter instead to occupy me!
For any readers of the thread here was my reply - I may even try to upload Henri's photos to my Flickr - not to claim the glory like - more to help out the technophobe - given the choice I'd have Henri's welding skills and poke the computers!

Hello mate - crikey that's a proper job nice one. I can say it hasn't put me off though - just gotta do some series thinking and planning! That's a quality bit of welding though. I'm in a right dilemma about dong the entire floor or just the side parts. If I went for the floor I'd just do that part alone - just cut the scoot and weld back the floor plate - no extra bits. Then I'd just weld any holes a bit further up the leggy. I like the idea of the floor as it has the curved sections to the rear already part of the panel which the thinner panels do not have?
If I did the side repair panels do I just cut along the seem line of the floor and the tunnel? And if so I'm assuming you just seem weld along the underside? How does the finish look cosmetically from the top though along the seem?
Yep Maldon Essex Henri otherwise I'd be tapping you up for a site visit!!

[henri]

the leggy repair panels are only a third of the width of the floor ,but from photo's shud cover inboard enuff to get rid of holes on nearside front , so the seam is right out visible on the floor , with accurate cutting an good butt welding then grinding an sanding an a tickle with hammer n dolly planishing it gets hidden under a -1mm skim of fine surface/sand filler , with the sportique pictured the rot was so extensive , caused by a bodged earlier repair an then abandonment in a leaky cowshed ,the front seam is a bit trick , the repair panel came joddled for a lap joint an thats how its welded ,cept for the final 2-3" ,that way its very hard to tell even if ya kneel n look at it from side ,the extra thickness is hidden mostly ,an the joint is welded top an bottom an extra strong ,i decided to do it this way as the center tunnel was rotted extensively along its bottom 2" both sides ,i'm expecting cracking probs with paint tho,as floor/leggys flex in use an any welded seam is stiff an gives a flex point ,thats why its usual just to butt weld to keep this to a minimum .
the leg repairs are all butt welded , the trick is to weld from underneath with a copper plate/flattened pipe backed with angle iron clamped on top side ,this keeps it aligned an copper stops holing/blow through that will need loads of grinding back on a inside curve,weld wont stick to copper ,thats why ive 2p's under clamps in piccys, they spread the clamping an wont get welded on when ya spot close to em ,an help the earthing of welder, then its close fitting joints an lots of patience ,1 spot at a time an either wait to cool or a blast from a airline ,this keeps heat distortion to a min ,
2 schools of thought on how , sum like to tack from both ends to try n keep from distorting , ive settled on tacking inboard end an clamping outside n welding outwards , distortion is more likely this way but if it occurs its at edge n easier to deal with ,if distortion is at inboard end its a total mare to deal with ,
however ya decide to do it ,1st thing get the disposable bottle an no-gauges regulater welders are sold with an throw them as hard as ya can an dont look where they land , hobbyweld/hobbygas n a few others do big bottles for 45quid n 50 deposit with no rental an usually free delivery , an a twin gauge regs bout 40 quid , with proper gas control an delivery ya can teach chimps to weld but with disposables ya need to be really good to get half decent welds .a clarkes 100e is what i mostly use ,bout 250 quid new , ive 2 ,1 over 20 years old ,they can just be plugged into a 13amp socket ,the nxt 1 up needs to be wired into a 30amp (cooker type) ring main , ya can put a plug on them but they will trip ya breakers a lot, there not fan cooled but weldin a scoot if ya tripping the thermal protection your going way to fast n hot an will distort , ive a fancy-dancy mig/tig n arc set aswell i got second hand but wud of been over 2 grand new ,it sits under the bench sulking as its too big to move easy an ya have to be finer setting it up, the clarkes are plug n play an my "go to tool" for mig-ing .an well capable of producing full thickness quality welds , like all migs it looks like a "electric pigeon" has pooped a line ,but as its going to be ground n sanded n filled ya dont need "pretty" tig work ,
a word on the finishing , grinder first ,then sanding disc an finally a flap wheel in a drill , will leave the surface flat n shiny ,the filler is just to hide any low-spots or working-marks ,
finally ,your unlucky ,i talked the guy i jus got a set of pk cases n gears from into posting them too me ,otherwise i might of been lurking near maldon looking for a free coffea n warm-up ,a diff scoot to look at n chat about wud of been a bonus ,ah well cant have life too easy ,it wud get boring , Henri

[crooky]

Kettles always on mate if you find yourself anywhere near.
I'm gonna get my hands on a 100e as someone's selling one with gas bottle and get practicing.
The only two bits I couldn't get off the frame were the brake pedal switch and two bolts screwed into the middle spine as it heads up the leg shield (for spare wheel bracket maybe??)
In both cases the heads of the bolts are worn so I can't get purchase with a screwdriver. What do you suggest?

[crooky]

Also, and I'm getting ahead of myself but it's been bugging me, the scoot has one long seat. Is that how it came from the factory? Every VBB1 I see seems to have two seats. Maybe the one seet was an option the buyer went for?

[henri]

the 2 bolts are spare holders n m10 ,13mm across the flats ,drill em n re-tap ,they go into a 1/8th" rectangle plate so theres enuff meat to tap into,
a vespa 150 ,which is wat most vbb1t/vbb2t was badged as had 1 front seat an a rack ya cud fit a pillion bum pad on , the more flash/upmarket "sportique" had a bench seat same shape as a gs 1 ,with the weird peak at rear end , there on a spring base n quite comfy , the singles are quite comfy too ,just will chill ya farmers in winter ,with the air rushin underneath ,
an the switch fixing screw hardly ever comes out ,ive found frames with 3-4 holes drilled in where people couldnt get screw out n re-drilled , drill it n use a larger self tapper to re-fix the switch ,
an ya aint gettin ahead ya self wonderin bout seats ,nows the time to be wonderin an deciding a plan , otherwise ya might get it painted or something done an then realise you should of done sumting else first . the brake light switch say , which one ,6v 12v ac or dc , are ya goin to do it douglas sportique n have a battery or run ac/no battery , whilst youve got the floor off is best time to run cables n loom ,an if ya choose which seat ya want nows the time to shop around n haunt e bay for 1 , bit of patience an i got a new sportique seat for £40 last month ,guy bought it ,tried it n went back to solo ,or if wanting to keep original seat but need re-covering it could take time to find a local trimmer to do job an for him to actually do it , good trimmers always have a waiting list ,its a "rule",
if ya have to get a new cover ive a few tips where , sip or better "ricambi" , bout 45 euros all in , mind a new smallie seat from them is 52 euros n 22 postage ,a larger 1 wont be much more ,an the smallie 1 i held yesterday looked great quality , H

[crooky]

Mine, from the chassis (vbb1t) and engine (vbb1m) numbers, is I believe Italian manufactured normal VBB1 150. Badged Vespa 150 on the front. Has Italian tax disc from 1976 on it - probably last time it was used!

However, it does have a long seat on it which got me wondering. I'll be reverting to the single seat then as I want it looking out of the factory spec. I'll post a photo if the seat area so you can have a gander at the hole positions.

I'm doing 8" wheels and no battery etc.

And you we're right the floor has the X markings on it similar to your photos. So NOT the vintage floor from all styles?

The wiring/cable thing you mention is an added bonus of floor replacement I think as gotta be easier accessing that area and threading them in.

Anything else I should be thinking of when the floors off?

[crooky]

While I wait for delivery of the floor I'm switching back to the final bits of the engine which should arrive this week. Can I have some guidance on getting the engine running out of the scooter? What's the minimum wiring I need to fire her up and is it case of simply connecting a fuel supply into the carb and off I go? Any recommendations for securing the engine?

Also, Henri can you just clarify when I'm welding the bottom of the floor along the front seem area where it joins the leggys is there something I should have underneath the weld area or the new metal would surely drip through the gap no? You mentioned copper plate - is this what you're talking about?