PX 125/150 Casings

[sime66]

Not sure whether to post this, but here goes:

I’ve been thinking about getting myself a pair of px125/150 engine casings to play with, to build slowly and carefully, and maybe learn a bit about tuning at the same time.
I’d be very interested if anyone has anything suitable that might be hanging around in one of your Alladin’s Caves, but just as an example, I’ve been watching several come and go on Ebay, and wonder if this is the sort of condition for price I’d be looking at:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331322487276?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

(£70+, bearing in mind the cost of then building something from scratch, compared to the value of a 2nd hand motor, complete. It might be that I’m just doing some sums to decide it isn’t really worth it).
Any comments, advice or offers very much appreciated. – Just thinking aloud really, and sharing the thought before doing something foolish; no hurry at all.

[henri]

at 50-60 quid there on the cheap end ,have to see what they finally go for , if your not rushing an its a back burner project i'd wait n spend more time cruising evil-bay,gumtree,pre-loved, or askin round locally , even if a whole engines crackered an needs barrel/piston ,clutch n crank you'll save loads on not having to buy all the little bits to build a bare case ,
new shafts n gears clutch =120 , kickstart/shaft/spring n pawl £50 ,selecter box 10-20, an all the fiddly bits n bobs case bolts/tab washers/spacers ,it all soon adds up ,
an thats before you get wrongly listed/non-fitting parts an postage on top, i'd only buy empty cases if i had a lump with blown cases to swap stuff over from ,otherwise your soon going to exceed the cost of a doggy lump to rebuild an if not constantly hunting bargains down an being lucky getting close to the price of a new/re-built engine.
keep on checkin flea bay for badly listed stuff like "vespa engine" or a scoot being broken ,an as ya out west def look for local listings down as "collection" only , even if there top dollar wait n see if anybody bids ,an then message at end of auction with a low-ball bid citing travel costs .worst is you offend sumbody ya dont know n get a snotty "no-get stuffed message back" , hard-nosed i know but if they cant/wont bother to sort postage a lot wont buy ,an with patience you should get a lump for reasonable money .
an yes on a pillow/blanket with loads of rope/string you can carry a spare engine on a vespa ,just dont plan on needing ya stand or rear brake as it gets in the way, ive done it before ,the weights better there than on a rack where it gives "interesting" handling an often damages the rack or where it fixes ,
so sime how bad have ya caught "tuneittis" ,you know the cure involves tears/heartache an a radical walletectomy surgery , H

[sime66]

Thanks, H. After posting that I did myself an engine build shopping list, and I reckon I was also thinking that a dead donor might be a better way to go, so not bare casings, and it’s very much a question of the patience and keeping an eye out stage of project then; I’ll take your advice and put the feelers out. That makes a bit more of an initial expense though, so even less of a hurry.
I have got a bit of an itch to do something though; just to tackle those couple of jobs I avoided out of expedience, cost or anxiety during my build, but also the things I’m bypassing now with my ‘good’ engine, such as maybe a bit of a decent kit/long crank/some porting etc., (getting a bit more of a grunter, learning some stuff and playing with gearing too), so mild ‘Early-Stage Tunitis’, with ‘No-Shed’ complications might be present.
I’m also thinking about how I’m going to tackle my couple of ongoing niggles with my scooter: My buggered drain threads, and my very mild for 30 years, but dealt-with-sooner-rather-than-later rust. If I had a (warm, dry) garage, I’d hoik the engine out for a bit over winter and do the underside whilst I had the engine out to fill and re-tap the drain. I haven’t got that, (or room/permission for any temporary erection), so I’ve either got to try and cadge a corner of a garage, pay someone to do my rust and I’ll do my engine whilst they’re at it. Or put the rust off, (or do a quick job of it), till next Spring and bodge/ignore my drain for now too. It’s a tiny leak, but I don’t want to keep fiddling with it or I’ll bugger those last few threads holding it in – then I won’t be able to ignore it.
So whilst mulling that over, with the couple of tuning threads we’ve had recently, and my thoughts wandering to casings, and doing a maybe tuned-a-bit build, I’m just trying to make my mind up what best to do over Winter. None of it is crucial; just mulling it all over now that hopefully the worst of my 2014 nightmare is over.
Probably best to deal with my scooter first, whilst keeping an eye out for a dead donor, but doing my scooter is probably best done with more off-road time, ideally in a garage for a bit over winter, or left for decent weather next Spring, so I just thought I might put it off and play with an engine indoors over Winter. Still undecided, thanks again for the helpful advice, diagnosis and prognosis.

Edit:
Not jumping in now without thinking about it, but was also following this:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/piaggio-vespa-PX-125-Engine/171466965456?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3Db21494f8acda4020a5f0200c60f04f98%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D20140122125356%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D331322487276&rt=nc
It will be gone before anyone reads this, but £200 for a complete working px125, is a better starting point?

[bryno]

Sime, I've a set of PX150 casings doing nothing, they still have the gearbox in them though they were left out in the rain (by a mate, not me!) so the cogs went a bit rusty, casings are unaffected. I cant remember what else is still attached, I'd need to check.

I'd not want much for the casings, or including the internals if you need them, clearly postal costs more with the box unless you happen to be within striking distance of Milton Keynes?

Anyway, drop me a PM if you wish.

[sime66]

PM’d you, Bryno.

[vespasco]

Id also go for a complete donor engine..especially at £200!
The 150 has slightly different gearing to a 125 so thats worth considering.
Sounds like you may get an offer you cant refuse!? ^^^^^
If its a lump with late type gears n clutch and electric start then even better.
Buying Piaggio components singularly (such as gears, shafts etc) is f'in expensive! (200's are even more so)! But they can de found as a unit, if you're in no hurry.

Remember to add on the 'tuning' components..... Cylinder kit,expansion pipe,and possibly carb? Clutch? Ignition kit? Tyres? shocks? Brakes? Gear kit? New bearings and seals gasketss. Tools for porting, and buying the costly prescription for your tunititus
And finding somewhere warm n dry to do it all! (you're not alone in that respect).
Aswell as studying those books you linked to in another thread... Well worth it if you want to have a better understanding of it all....

[sbwnik]

P125 is the same gearing as P150 AFAIK....

[vespasco]

Im sure youre right nik. I need to update my notes...I had written that the stock late px150 and late px200 were the same 1st gear cog but not the 125!?
Then again, who uses 1st gear very much?!
Thanks

[sime66]

There's a gear ratio chart here:
beedspeed.com/html-pages/GearRatios.pdf
My bleedin' internet is on a go-slow again, so I can't post it at the moment, but tomorrow I'll do that and cross reference it against the gear ratios in Haynes.
The link below might come out as the chart, or it might be gibberish; I'm sick of fighting with my computer tonight:

[sbwnik]

Late 150EFL are different. Learn something new every day.

Hmm. Useful to know, thanks

[vespasco]

Thanks for re confirming that sime6biscuits....ill leave my notes alone then!!

[sime66]

Might have to be ‘7Biscuits’, after BigD’s contribution – a Malted Milk for the Ragged Edgers perhaps – watch that space!……………..(the spark plug thread)

Glad to help with 125/150 gearing question – remember your Bhudda though, vespasco – believe nothing – I’ll be counting teeth if I do get my hands on a donor. So the gearing remains a bit of an unknown until we’re talking about a specific engine; another of those subjects where I could lose a day studying it, but learn nothing particularly useful. I did cross-reference Beedspeed’s table against the scooterhelp gear calculator and Haynes (Below), but it didn’t really clarify anything for me:



Vespasco, I’m curious why you think electric start would be better; I’d be thinking the opposite (never had one; wouldn’t want the weight or agro?) – is there a reason you say its desirable? Likewise autolube, wich I’d prefer not to be faffing about using or blanking off.

Cost:
The bits I’m thinking about, specific to tuning, or needing upgrading for a slight grunter are:
New Kit, New Crank, New Clutch, Old Dell’Orto Carb (*maybe some gearing mods).
The bits I’d like brand new best quality are:
Stator, CDI, Seals, Bearings, Crux and Shaft
Stuff I’d like to pick up with a donor engine, to save faffing about are:
Gear Box*, Flywheel, Selector Box, Rear Hub Plate, Carb Box & Filter, Clutch Cover & Arm, Kick Shaft & Cog.
Then there’s Nuts, Studs, Gaskets, ‘O’Rings, Flywheel Cover, Cylinder Shroud, Consumables, Lubes, Tools, and Unforeseen/c**k-ups.

So with the cost of a donor engine, and the new and decent kit, crank and clutch alone, I reckon I’ve pretty much priced myself out of my little scheme for now. Definitely need to do a bit more learning/planning/costing first.
(That's without exhaust, shocks, brakes, tyres etc., which I'd really thought of as already being on my scooter - although shocks is on my 'to do list' anyway)

Yesterday that complete px125 went for £217, and the px casings went for £71 – in both cases getting the bugger to Cornwall would be the killer.

That’s where I am with it after a night cogitating the advice given yesterday.

[bryno]

I believe the PX150 I have is an early one, so gearing same as PX125.

I sold a know good complete and running 125 for £350, could have sold it several times over at that price, but I'd say pay no more than that, it had all bar the CDI.

If you are buidling up a 'new' engine I'd personally not buy 2 of these bits, just swap them over from your current motor to keep the costs down:

kickstart, carb & box, stator & flywheel, CDI, fly & cyl covers and also the selector box (as it's easier to leave that connected to the cables).

So your 'new' motor needs casings and all internals, brake back plate & brakes, clutch & cover, cyl/piston/head.

[pxguru]

Sime66, I doubt you are after a full blown race scooter. The majority of any actual performance increase is just in the brarrel. If you got yourself an old/scored up DR180 barrel and a Dremel, learn some tuning, quick rebore and your Dale Winton will be doing over 70mph

[sime66]

I’m going to nip this ‘Dale Winton’ malarkey in the bud before it catches on; I should have let that one lie – my own fault!
(I checked – it was Michael Barrymore, not Dale Winton – anyway lets forget it).

Right, here goes….
I have been giving this some thought today, and I must confess to having got myself in a bit of a confusion about what I’m trying to do, so I’m at least I’m glad to have talked it through with you chaps.
The initial idea was to learn and to build something to put into practice some of the stuff we’ve been discussing in other threads, but which I haven’t done to my scooter. The purpose of the finished ‘new’ engine would probably depend on what I ended up with; maybe a spare, probably something to go in my scooter so I could go on to doing something with that engine that's in it, or something else – I’m not sure. My initial idea is looking like it’s getting too expensive before I start, so this might stay on the drawing board for some time while I think it through and decide what I’m doing.
For now, for the purposes of this embryo of a project, it was never my intention to have my own engine being butchered as part of the process; that one’s a good ‘un and I want to leave it alone, in my scooter, and enjoy it.
I took on board bryno’s earlier suggestions about which bits I might swap over when I’m actually swapping engines over, to save having two of everything, and to keep costs down. That makes good sense to me, although it wasn’t my initial plan.
Now I need to clarify, pxguru, are you suggesting that:
1. I find an old DR180 barrel as part of my ‘new’ built engine, to save more expense on that build?
2. Or that I only play with an old barrel for now, forget the ‘new’ engine, and don’t bother doing anything with the casings I have now? – Just to get better out of my current engine?
If you mean I could use an old barrel in the ‘new’ engine and get dremelling and rebore it, I hadn’t thought of that, and it sounds a good idea if OK to do.
I don’t want any more long periods of my scooter having no working engine in it though, or to make big changes to the engine I have; that isn’t my intention – I want to have this as a separate job, not affecting my current ride. I’m not sure which of those you are suggesting.
I’m intending to learn to do some dremelling/(porting/flowing?) to my ‘new’ built engine, but not to my existing engine casings – not yet anyway.
I’m definately not trying to build a race scooter, and I definitely don’t want anything so tuned it’s too unreliable, – those would have been questions for later, when I was trying to decide on specifics of kit etc.
I hope that makes sense? As I say, I’ve got myself a bit unsure about what I’m doing now.

[vespasco]

Hahaha.. Youre right..i dont believe in.nothing...... Its just that I sound like a arse when I think im right! I dont mean to..
The elextricstart is better in my.opinion only because you can take off the starter cog and in effect have a (not too) lighter flywheel.. Ditch the actual electric starter!!! Thats not for tuners!
As for autolube...entirely your call, for me its something else that can.potentially go wrong...I prefer to self mix on tuned motors..
The shocks and brakes n tyres thing is entirely based on being able to ride and stop safely with the extra power/speeds you will no doubt achieve..
Yes I also use first gear occasionally Gaz!! But only after my foot touches the ground..... But its hardly worth considering as a tuning component for a mildly tuned motor.. Ill let you off Gaz
I believe the later gearboxes are designed to help the cruxiform stay in gear better.
Im not sure what my 225 (long stroker) cost but I bet its alot more than a 125/150 block rebuild.
.I waited for a cheapish 2nd hand pinasco kit on ebay...got one from Germany... Then I had to.learn something about tuning as I later discovered than the 215 pinasco (with 57mm crank) simply does not compute!!! Realising it must have been made for long stroke because of port timings,deck height etc (even.pinasco.couldnt/wouldnt answer that age old question)....I then 'got really involved'!! And discovered the Pinasco cylinder head was next to useless, even reprofiling it would have been a waste of time...But I did really enjoy working it all out...Then later seeing that pinasco then finally made a head that actually works....a head almost identical to my design!! (no im not saying they copied me, just coincidence, probably! Hehe)! But it was a very rewarding project..
The cases I used were pretty beaten up but they lasted longer than expected on my experi mental motor.
I still have my stock motor, ready to bolt in, and I would/can use the same gear selector box and rear hub...But once I.know for sure my pinasco is back to its former glory then I will sell my spare stock motor (although its been for sale for ages) seems nobody wants a fully working p200 motor?!
Im not sure but, is it possible to re port a stock 125/150 to use with, say, a long stroker? On the stock 200 jug it looks easily doable anyway...
Whatever you decide, good luck!!!

[pxguru]

Sime66, What I was basically meaning, was instead of spending loads on a replacement whole or half engine, have a think about what you are really trying to achieve.
As with all tuning projects first thing is to work out what you need from it in terms of performance, economy, reliability, max rpm, power band, torque etc. Then balance that against the budget.
How you fit the all tuning parts together is often as important, as buying the right parts in the first place.
I think for yours you just want a bit more speed with no less reliability. All you really need is a barrel, piston and a decent expansion. No need to modify anything else in the engine from what you have recently done. And you already have a 24/24 on it.
When I started out tuning my first PX (31 years ago!) I made a whole new engine and left the standard one in a cupboard for ages, then eventually sold it

[henri]

that px for 200 bar was a steal if as good as listing stated , an the beedspeed gear chart is the most reliable i ive found so far , aswell as slightly different ratios from points to lectronic px's theres a difference in the tree shaft ,end bush is 15mm not 13mm ,an rollers are diff size,but you can change bush in casings an run earlyier tree in later cases ,an efl px's have a diff output shaft n loose gears ,2 circlips not 1 an a flat cruccy,
for bearing sizes n component compatability i use sip website an the models fitted button below part, its 99% reliable ,more than can be said for some of there parts . then a careful search through classifieds n e bay an with patience bargains can be had ,as ive said in another post i discovered a local lad going long crank an selling a 1500 mile crank ,turned out he had a standard exhaust gen piaggio from same motor mine for a tenner ,an coz he liked the "cut of my jib" he gave me a mallossi 180cc barrel that has a chip on the exhaust port from the rings ,off a running scoot so he kept piston n head ,will need porting to be really good again but i plan to use it in my street sleeper project.
if ya fancy porting yaself ive probably got a old barrel you can practise on for postage ,rather than learn on a 200+quid new out the box kit. H

[sime66]

Thanks for that chaps; it certainly is another way of looking at it, and has some positives too:
1. I can’t help returning to my second post here, and thinking I’d be wiser to save the money, and sort the rust and the repair to my casing drain instead first, while I learn some more, and think-through this project a little better. I’m happy with my scooter, I don’t plan on replacing it, and so should probably prioritise and do some jobs to prolong its life.
2. The finished ‘new’ engine would have been a by-product of the learning process, not really the purpose of the build; I have no target performance, power band, max rpm, torque in mind – that’s where the learning is needed.
3. I’m not unhappy with my scooter’s top speed with what I’m using it for now anyway, the only time I feel it’s lack of power is pulling me up a few of the steep hills round here.
So I’m trying to get enthusiastic about just doing a barrel mod, and bolting it onto my engine later on. It wouldn’t tackle much of the stuff I’ve been thinking about, (crank, clutch, gears, casing mods etc…), but would give me time to learn more. I have no yearning for just a better top speed though, which isn’t the problem for me with my scooter.
I’ll keep my eye out, and maybe if the right bits crop up I can have a play and bolt it on later, but mainly my scooter and engine are hopefully staying intact next year, just to enjoy - unless something unforeseen comes up. I missed nearly the whole year in 2014 and don’t plan on repeating it; for now my scooter must be kept separate from any tuning stuff I do.

The short answer is that, for no particular practical reason, I just felt the itch to have a play, but it turns out I can’t really afford to do what I was thinking at the moment, so maybe just this barrel mod?

Henri, your post came up whilst I was replying to pxguru, so it’s a bit of an afterthought/clarification on the above:

Do I understand this correctly that I get an old barrel, buy new piston and rings (and head?), port the barrel (for the piston?), so that they are optimum (flow/port timing/?? etc. – this is the learning bit, so vague on that), learn squish and sort that too (vague), then at the end of the exercise (if I haven’t buggered it or chopped too many fingers off), just swap the barrel for the one on my scooter? Without doing anything to my casings? Or crank, Or exhaust? Probably upjetting the 24 carb, and maybe timing only?

If I’ve got that roughly correct, then that sounds like a decent little indoors winter project. I reckon I’m going to prioritise my rust and drain, and maybe do a barrel – so what ya got?

(That 125 wouldn’t have gone for £217 if I’d bid – I watched it end and the highest bidder covered his bid twice in the last few minutes – two bids went on without the high bid increasing – I bet he had at least £250 already covered. Even then, new kit, crank, clutch, gears etc would have made it an expensive project. It does give me an idea of what's a good price for future though).

[henri]

no barrel no matter what youve done will give its best unless "matched " to cases , you make the transition from cases to barrel transfer ports as smooth as poss ,no steps/ridges/obstructions ,usually by filing/dremelling material from cases out to match ports in barrel. can be done with cases together n crank in roughly ,but best for cleanliness on split bearing less cases ,then ya can put barrel on studs on half case n feel any mis-match by finger ,
an squish can only be done on cses n crank to be used ,bolt head n barrel down with sum plastigauge or soft solder taped to piston crown running out to edge of piston , turn engine over 1 by hand ,unbolt head n measure plastigauge/solder =squish, then alter, to much=either skim/re-profile head ,or depending on "deck height" +/- machine from bottom of barrel so it sits lower ,but that will lower an port timings youve already done ,
too little squish easyier =thicker base gasket/spacer plate ,
its a endless circle of 1 choice begetting 3 more options , the best bolt on barrel kit is dr 1's ,but opinion on others is divided but with 1 agreement theve got to be matched an arent bolt-off/bolt-on really ,with the malossi being closest to dr for boltability , my unhumble opinion of course .
sort ya rust first , an a mate showed me a trick for wrecked oil drain threads other day , a plasterboard/rockwall expanding bolt with a rubber washing up glove finger over it , reckons when his drain plug let go bout 2 years ago n 75miles from home this was best he could do at local b&q ,looks a bit frankenscooter an needs glove finger changing every oil change ,but aint let him down yet , H

[sime66]

Reckon you’re right for now, H; shame, but I think it’s best - i relly don't want to start messing with my casings at the moment. I was surprised that I thought you clever chaps were suggesting a barrel mod without casings mods might be a good idea; anyway we’ve sorted it out for now, so thanks for helping me decide; hope I didn’t waste anyone’s time while I made my mind up – (for now anyway).

Just to tidy up the gears subject for now too, I spent a couple of hours this afternoon working out how the teeth produce the gear ratios, and how the ratios produce the speed for a given rpm. It’s just a bit of maths, but I needed to concentrate for a bit to understand and follow it.

I ended up making myself a little spreadsheet (in Excel), into which you input the teeth for clutch, primary, cluster, and drive teeth, and which calculates the gear ratios, and then uses those to calculate (theoretical) speed at varying rpm. At the moment it’s limited to a 3.5x10 wheel/tyre, but I could work out a way of inputting tyres if I knew where the circumferences were listed.

If anyone thinks they might find it useful, or want to play with it, I can email it to you, in any format that I can convert it to. Most of you old’uns will have your tried and tested methods already, and most of you young’uns will probably find an app to do it for you, but I learned a bit doing it this way, and it stretched my brain just enough to distract me from what I should have been doing this afternoon.

I’ve checked it against the Scooterhelp Gear calculator, and against a little program I found called GearCalc, which can be found here:
locost7.info/gearcalc.php

This is the working/cross referencing to make sure it worked whilst I was doing it:


This is a screen print of the data output (yellow & blue) when I’ve input the data (green) for my scooter, which I’ve got off the Beedspeed tables - (teeth):

(You input the Green (teeth); it calculates the Yellow (ratios), which it uses in the tables to give Blue (speed)).

You might like it, or you might think it’s sh*te; but I kept me happy and I learned a bit whilst doing it. Probably still needs a thorough check too, but my brains wandering now.

(If it is useful I can add to the revs columns – or make any other changes like the tyres)

[pxguru]

I'm thinking you're a bit to easily put off to get into tuning
Matching and filling transfers is in my fine tuning for speed catagory, as is squish bands and custom heads and everything else. Your base engine is good as it is. I think for what you have mentioned, just a DR barrel rebored with a new piston, ported to perfection for torque. And some kind of expansion exhaust and thats it. Loads more torque and +5mph. easy.

[sime66]

Not put off really, just having a think while I do some other jobs first. It turns out my initial idea wasn’t realistic, and the suggestions are different to what I had in mind. Firstly it changed to using bits off my engine, and then again to using my engine and just adding bits to it. So it’s right to pause and weigh it all up.
I don’t want to faff around with my engine next year after spending all of 2014 on it, and I never envisaged needing to have a big ugly exhaust on it either. I compared Scootering’s Exhaust Shootout with write-ups and prices last night, and it doesn’t appeal. – Only two beat my SR2 anyway (Simoni-£100 & Malossi-£120); they’re noisy, obstructing, and ugly – that’s as much as I know for now, so probably not a fair critique on expansion exhausts.
It wasn’t about squeezing more out of my engine, it was about learning some tuning stuff. There’s loads to learn without necessarily doing it straight away; I reckon it’s turning out to be more sensible that way.
H, I knew you had to measure squish with the piston, on the assembled barrel, and by the method you said, although I’ve never done it. My point before was about understanding it, and the effect of increasing or decreasing it. That’s a good example of something I can spend more time understanding before having to do it, so I know what I’m trying to achieve and why.
Another example here is what’s going on in an expansion exhaust that makes it necessary for a tuned engine – far better to understand it, I think, than just bolt one on and see a bit of a performance increase.
Also, the gears were a mystery to me until fredperrybruce asked about a week ago; a few hours, here and there, finding out for myself, and I follow it from crank to tyre, and in terms of rpm and speed. – That’s how I envisaged learning each part of it. So now I can get into the other, far more complex side of it - tuning the 2stroke.
So, firstly I’ll get my head round the 2stroke cycle better, then which bits of it I can improve; starting with the barrel porting mods, because it might be first job, understanding which bits of the cycle we are trying to improve and how, then if and when I get my Dremel out, I’ll understand what I’m doing, not just following instructions. I know I can’t catch up on 30+ years of experience, but I can pick up some of the theory behind the practical.
So, not put off; more aware of my own ignorance on the subject – which is not a good time to be spending; more a good time to be learning.

[henri]

i didnt mean to put you off kitting your cases as is ,you will see a diff straight away , but if buildin a spare racey lump def get a set of needle files n cd pens , an if ya really want to learn theres books/vids out there an help on here ,
squish is about creatin turbelence so all fuel burns quicker=bigger bang ,
expansion pipes are about creatin a exhaust gas back-belch/echo , to stuff bit of fresh charge back in barrel n make sure all burnt stuff out , an generally hurrying exhaust gas along more, the fancy echo stuff only works coz of gas speeds at certain rev ranges the "power band" , the graphs from scooterin test n the blurb explain power ranges/n torques better than i can here,
suss this an then ya can choose 1 that matches what you want n bolt it on ,an know why its doin it ,
theres massive books on exhaust tuning , mostly good for insomnia,i know ive read some, for what your doin just understandin the basics is enuff,the rest is for designing/building exhausts , you'd need to learn to weld 1st ,
an i agree with the big/ugly not economic compared to sip, well for the mid to cheapys, but then i'm a sucker for nice cones n robotic perfect weldin, so do look at top-end hammer-zombie/bgm n other pipes an drool, an if ya going expansion pipe properly,believe, go big/cost not counted,get the best 1 for tune wanted, give it a third ya budget , a grand ,300 for donor lump,300 exhaust,300 kit n clutch , 100 bearings,seals,sundrys , an thats a cheap tuned lump,
impatience to get on an not hunting bargains can double that easy , being prepared to fix/fettle abused tuning parts can get it loads cheaper , example=found a polini exhaust for my v100 project ,105 quid new ,normally 40-50 second hand ,mine had been tried to fitted to a pk n mount weld was cracked , so got it for 20 ,new, i welded it in 15 mins ,but if you,a local jobbin welder/guy on lunch break prob extra 15-20 quid,40 quid all in ,an for tuning nuts who aint sussed the basics or are "trend followers" theres always a newer/better/magic box to bolt on ,meanin loads of low mileage 2nd hand pipes on flea bay,
would advise tho askin around on here before partin with "cold/hard" as problems with exhausts aint always about performance , diff of fitting,spare/none,ground clearance , cutting panels,battery or no,
if ya win lotto tommorrow ,buy a lml reed valve motor new ,stic sip on it or expansion pipe ,n stick it in scoot , then buy gaff with double garage n rebuild/tune the lump ya got in luxury,butler servin drinks on a vespa styled segway is optional but reccomended,
anyway as said earlyier cure rust,sort/fix/bodge drain plug, an keep on ridin ya newish build ,enjoy sum miles eh before gettin filthy fingers agin, who knows, pass test ,take m'lady on a well deserved pillion , gain brownie points ,for when this so far mild case of tuneittis goes viral/full on , sorry sime but my spidey senses have tingled n say youve got it bad just in "de-nile" at mo, your goin to need all earned brownies for time spent elbow deep in vesp tuning, once started never finished,just temporarily short of the neccesary, H

[sime66]

Cheers, H.
I’ll be scratching the itch sometime, when I’m sure what best to do.
But I am fixed in my mind that my scooter, after those couple of jobs to finish this year, is my 2015 Fun and Frolics Ride (Tent and Totty Time) – nothing else.
So much the better if I finally do my test – that’s purely down to money, and if I want to spend it on that or not. I am not skint, but the test is a sickening way to chuck money away.
Over winter, I’ll study, and ask you chaps as much as I can until you’re sick of the theory without me doing something dirty!
Then this time next year I’ll make sure I have a decent Winter 2015 tuning project ready.
Which means I’ll keep looking now, but I’m in no hurry to buy anything, and in no hurry to start anything. – A good bargaining position to be in.
I’ll try and keep the tuneittis just in my brain till then; not my hands or wallet – we’ll see how long that plan lasts!!

Anyway, time to let this post die for now – I hope to have many ‘Learner’s Tuning Chats’ with you experienced chaps over the next few months; I’m going to go through it chapter-by-chapter, as laid out in Graham Bell’s Two Stroke Performance Tuning (but I’ll read Jennings’s Tuner’s Handbook at the same time):

I’ll try that; see how it goes……………….

[vespasco]

Sime. Is it possible you could do me a gear ratio chart for my motor?
Im usually on my phone and it gets tricky for me...
Stock px200 gearing, clutch.
3.50 x 10 Tyre circumference of 1320mm (1325 seems to be a commonly used circumference)
If poss can it show rpm @ 6400 and 7300

Dont worry if you dont have time. I know youll be busy

[sime66]

will do it now......
p200 =
23/65 primary
12-57
13-42
17-38
21-35
Tell me if I'm wrong with those; it'll take slightly longer to add a column for 6400 & 7300, but give me 5-10 mins...........

[sime66]

Here it is; as you're my guinea pig, I'm going to check it against:
gearingcalc.free.fr/
but if you don't hear, it's accurate...

[vespasco]

Youre the man! Edit: got it
Excellent
Many thanks

[sime66]

I have an entente cordiale with the Frenchies!



but theres make me use 1325, and only does revs in increments of 250, so it comes out slightly different. - But the same.