Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 7, 2017 20:37:04 GMT
Hi all, I have bought a malossi 210 kit which looks all shiny and lovely. I have a couple of questions about it and was wondering if anyone could help. 1. The kit has come with 2 very small little metal collars/bushes called 'boccole' . What are they for? 2. Do the ports need chamfering to save the piston rings from being prematurely worn.? Any help very gratefully received. Thanks Phil
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Post by pxguru on Jun 8, 2017 4:54:35 GMT
Which Malossi 210? MHR?
The ports are already chamfered. On a Nicasil bore the chamfer is tiny but it is there.
If you look at the cylinder head, two of the stud holes are slightly bigger than the other two. The 'boccole' collars half press into there to keep the head centered.
What you doing with the jetting and timing to avoid shiny and lovely turning into scored and trash?
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Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 8, 2017 5:34:53 GMT
Which Malossi 210? MHR? The ports are already chamfered. On a Nicasil bore the chamfer is tiny but it is there. If you look at the cylinder head, two of the stud holes are slightly bigger than the other two. The 'boccole' collars half press into there to keep the head centered. What you doing with the jetting and timing to avoid shiny and lovely turning into scored and trash? Thank you for the reply. It's the sport not the mhr. Or at least that's what I ordered. The box doesn't appear to have any label indicating which kit it is. Is there a way of checking? I am glad I asked about the 'boccole' as I would never have guessed that! Regards jetting and timing: dellorto phbh 30mm with reeds. I suspect the timing is already 18 before TDC but I intend on checking. Is it a good idea to use threadlock on the stud threads and hylomar blue on the copper base gasket and cylinder head? Thanks Phil
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Post by pxguru on Jun 8, 2017 6:49:19 GMT
Never seen a Sport 210, will be interesting to see how it goes. As far as I know the Sport and MHR look identical but the porting is different. There maybe something stamped on the barrel near the base but to double check the main transfers on an MHR are approx 46mm from the top of the barrel and the Sport main transfer ports are 47mm from the top of the barrel. So a 1mm base packer and no head gasket and you have your own MHR (if it doesn't go fast enough).
If you casings are rough you may need some sealer on the base but nothing on studs or head, as they will both cause damage in the long run.
What needle and atomiser do you plan to start with in the PHBH?
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Post by henri on Jun 8, 2017 7:19:56 GMT
personal preference for me , only a smear of grease on paper base gasket,nothing on copper ones ,i loctite studs in,tiny drop of weakest one , an high temp copper loctite a fine smear on head ,left to dry a while an careful not to get on studs or in combustion chamber .H
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Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 8, 2017 7:41:40 GMT
Never seen a Sport 210, will be interesting to see how it goes. As far as I know the Sport and MHR look identical but the porting is different. There maybe something stamped on the barrel near the base but to double check the main transfers on an MHR are approx 46mm from the top of the barrel and the Sport main transfer ports are 47mm from the top of the barrel. So a 1mm base packer and no head gasket and you have your own MHR (if it doesn't go fast enough). If you casings are rough you may need some sealer on the base but nothing on studs or head, as they will both cause damage in the long run. What needle and atomiser do you plan to start with in the PHBH? I'll post all dellorto variables this evening. I can't remember them off the top of my head.
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Post by mijapxman on Jun 8, 2017 13:50:41 GMT
Malossi usually have a code number on the box.
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Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 8, 2017 18:04:50 GMT
Never seen a Sport 210, will be interesting to see how it goes. As far as I know the Sport and MHR look identical but the porting is different. There maybe something stamped on the barrel near the base but to double check the main transfers on an MHR are approx 46mm from the top of the barrel and the Sport main transfer ports are 47mm from the top of the barrel. So a 1mm base packer and no head gasket and you have your own MHR (if it doesn't go fast enough). If you casings are rough you may need some sealer on the base but nothing on studs or head, as they will both cause damage in the long run. What needle and atomiser do you plan to start with in the PHBH? I'll post all dellorto variables this evening. I can't remember them off the top of my head. Right then, fuelling: Sip fast flow tap Main129 Needle 200 Starter 70 Idle 55 Atomiser av266 Taper x2 notch 2 Slide cutaway 40 How does this sound? I want to be able to run at full throttle without seizing. I've had before on my 125 and it is not fun when it happens at speed! π©π©π©
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Post by ironsloth on Jun 8, 2017 22:00:10 GMT
Last time I seized my malossi 166, there were 2 skid marks, one black..... One... Not so black.....
Now resorted to a Polini kit, and a fresh pair of underpants.
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Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 9, 2017 5:28:21 GMT
Last time I seized my malossi 166, there were 2 skid marks, one black..... One... Not so black..... Now resorted to a Polini kit, and a fresh pair of underpants. Ha ha! Good one. God it bloody terrifying when it happens. β οΈ
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Post by pxguru on Jun 9, 2017 12:00:46 GMT
I'll post all dellorto variables this evening. I can't remember them off the top of my head. Right then, fuelling: Sip fast flow tap Main129 Needle 200 Starter 70 Idle 55 Atomiser av266 Taper x2 notch 2 Slide cutaway 40 How does this sound? I want to be able to run at full throttle without seizing. I've had before on my 125 and it is not fun when it happens at speed! π©π©π© Should all be fine to start with. The main thing is the 266 atomiser. It might be a bit big once run in but a good place to start. If you are ever buying more atomisers, I suggest an AS type instead of AV. The AS ones will work just the same but give more economy in the final set up. If you have an X7 needle I would use that for running in. 55 pilot is what I would expect to be close enough. I always like to start with a too big main jet, I would guess 140 would be too big Only put in extra oil (3%) for the first tank. You going to get it bolted on for a weekend of running in? Edit; If you want it to go properly be sure to set the base gasket thickness to give a squish clearance of 1.2mm (or less )
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Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 9, 2017 19:47:09 GMT
Right then, fuelling: Sip fast flow tap Main129 Needle 200 Starter 70 Idle 55 Atomiser av266 Taper x2 notch 2 Slide cutaway 40 How does this sound? I want to be able to run at full throttle without seizing. I've had before on my 125 and it is not fun when it happens at speed! π©π©π© Should all be fine to start with. The main thing is the 266 atomiser. It might be a bit big once run in but a good place to start. If you are ever buying more atomisers, I suggest an AS type instead of AV. The AS ones will work just the same but give more economy in the final set up. If you have an X7 needle I would use that for running in. 55 pilot is what I would expect to be close enough. I always like to start with a too big main jet, I would guess 140 would be too big Only put in extra oil (3%) for the first tank. You going to get it bolted on for a weekend of running in? Edit; If you want it to go properly be sure to set the base gasket thickness to give a squish clearance of 1.2mm (or less ) Great thanks for the advice. Are the AS the shorter atomisers? When run in would you suggest an as244? With regards the main jet what would you recommend for the setting once run in? One more question. What would be your perfect exhaust for this set up? I'm planning on putting it all together on Sunday. I'll let you know how I get on. I've never done any of this before but hopefully it will go smoothly. What's the worst that could happen?!? Thanks, Phil
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Post by pxguru on Jun 10, 2017 7:08:13 GMT
The AS atomisers are actually longer and made for 2 strokes. The AV are general ones that can be used for both 2 & 4 strokes. When you open the throttle on either AS or AV atomiser they both go but if you have any interest in economy when cruising along an AS one is the better choice. With a 2.5mm needle (X2, X13 and X7 are all 2.5mm) you will probably end up on an AS264 or AS266. The bigger number is richer and you will have to select the correct one for yours by riding it, after its run in. One size to weak and it will hesitate on pick up, two sizes too weak and it will seize up at cruise! As the PHBH carb atomisers only come in two size jumps you only get one go Make sure it has at least a faint rich splutter at 1/4 throttle and a heavier splutter at WOT while running in and all will be fine. Don't be too keen to down jet before it is run in or it will bite you. In light of my recent experience with mine be sure to check and set the squish clearance when you assemble it. Solder wire and a vernier gauge are the preferred way of checking. Plenty of videos on YouTube And between 1.0mm and 1.2mm is where you are aiming.
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Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 20, 2017 20:28:22 GMT
The malossi 210 sport kit comes with a thin ally base gasket but no copper head gasket. Instead the head has a rubber ring. Anyway I have checked the squish and it is 0.95 mm which sounds too small. Shall I fit a copper gasket to the head or a thicker cylinder base gasket? My preferred option is the copper gasket as I already have one! Thoughts please?
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Post by pxguru on Jun 21, 2017 3:09:23 GMT
For me 0.95mm is not so small. I would leave it there. My new 221 is 0.9mm and it's last barrel was 0.7mm (and ran for many years like that).
If you are really not happy to do that then just add a 0.1mm base gasket. The cheap gasket set P200 one with the Malossi ports cut into it will do fine.
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Post by mijapxman on Jun 21, 2017 13:26:20 GMT
The Modern Vespa, not so modern website has a thread that may be of interest? It's called Malossi 210 built thread- port timings next ( sorry can't get a link to work), jack221 amongst others on that site knows his stuff.
Anyway, what caught my eye was a quote from pullmyfinger " the tighter the squish the cooler the piston will be and the more efficient/powerful the combustion will be ", this has been known about for years but seems to have been overlooked to a degree, when it comes to road going scooters, maybe because pro tuners are being cautious when building road going scooter engines?, with a view to reasonable service intervals and high mileages that most scooter owners demand.
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Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 22, 2017 20:12:40 GMT
For me 0.95mm is not so small. I would leave it there. My new 221 is 0.9mm and it's last barrel was 0.7mm (and ran for many years like that). If you are really not happy to do that then just add a 0.1mm base gasket. The cheap gasket set P200 one with the Malossi ports cut into it will do fine. Cool, that's makes me feel better. I'm just worried about blasting along the engine fully warm and then the crown smacking into the head and destroying my freshly rebuilt top end!
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Phil
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 38
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Post by Phil on Jun 22, 2017 20:13:35 GMT
The Modern Vespa, not so modern website has a thread that may be of interest? It's called Malossi 210 built thread- port timings next ( sorry can't get a link to work), jack221 amongst others on that site knows his stuff. Anyway, what caught my eye was a quote from pullmyfinger " the tighter the squish the cooler the piston will be and the more efficient/powerful the combustion will be ", this has been known about for years but seems to have been overlooked to a degree, when it comes to road going scooters, maybe because pro tuners are being cautious when building road going scooter engines?, with a view to reasonable service intervals and high mileages that most Β scooter owners demand. That's sounds interesting thanks. I'll check it out. ππ»
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Post by mijapxman on Jun 23, 2017 4:01:48 GMT
I' m not trying to be disrespectful to pxguru, he really knows his stuff too and his threads are really interesting and informative, the other thread just caught my eye and I thought you may be interested in it too. Also the last T5 Malossi 172 I opened was very quick and had a tight squish but the piston had eventually started hitting the head, due to not following a sensible rebuild schedule due to the owners inexperience. Good luck with your build. JimβΊπ
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