Battery or no Battery?

[qpv8evo]

Hi everyone, im new to this as I have just restored my first scoot.
A 1961 Douglas Vespa 152l2 with a P200E engine.
My question is this, I am about to completely rewire it with 12v DC electrics,the engine has electronic ignition but is not electric start,I have seen diagrams for non electric start with a battery,could anybody tell me the advantage of having a battery in the system as opposed to not having one.
Also is it the case that the DC output will only be around 2 amps and does it therefore mean that I cant run with a 55/60W halogen front bulb?
Any help or ideas would be much appreciated
Many Thanks
Gareth

[bryno]

Can't think of any real advantagesother than having sidelights and a horn that work with the engine off..

If your scoot doesnt already have a battery fitted (think all the UK Sportiques did anyway), you'll need to change the horn to a battery type, about £25..

[Ironduke]

I did away with mine only because it would have meant replacing the battery with a 12V version and I was using the space to hold the regulator that it didn't have before. Looking back I would have kept it as the horn supply because now the horn only sounds at high revs (the voltage goes up with the revs), and keeping it battery would have saved me all these snags. The new stator output should be around 80W which using ohms law should equate to just under 7 amps. You can go for the larger halogen headlight bulb but I'd advise getting some LED replacements in the rear light, this will stop the front dimming when you apply the brake.

[qpv8evo]

Many thanks for the replies,I am assuming the P200E from which I got the engine was an AC scoot?
I was thinking I just had to fit a new reg/rectifier but do I have to fit a new stator as well?
Excuse my ignorance but this is my first scoot.
Gareth

[Ironduke]

Hmm as far as I'm concerned they all are AC, unless there are some fitted with brushes most rotating brushless generators produce AC. The rectifiers job is to block one portion of the AC waveform which gives you a rough DC.
I'm a bit confused - you say the scoot already has a P200 engine fitted, this produces the 12V to your scoot so it must already be running 12V bulbs etc and should have a rectifier fitted somewhere - usually under the left panel (port side to us sea farers) What exactly are you thinking of changing?

[qpv8evo]

Sorry it seems I may have confused the issue somewhat,let me give a brief description of what im trying to do.
I have restored a 1961 152l2,it is repainted,assembled but completely bare of anything electrical, the engine was totally shot so I got hold of a known good P200E (non electric start) engine.
I have physically fitted it and all that is on the engine is a large rubber connection block,an electronic ignition pack with a plug lead and spark plug.I have purchased a brand new reg/rectifier unit which is not yet fitted.
My aim is to retain the original look of the scoot but have 12v DC electrics so I can have a decent front light,add a brake lamp and a decent pair of horns.Im not fitting indicators.I basically need to know what else do I need to obtain or convert to acheive this.Will the output from the current Stator/dynamo or whatever it is known as be sufficient to run these items after it has been converted to DC and will I need a battery to help with the load or is a battery purely for electric start engines?
As I said my knowledge is based around car electrics so im not too sure how to go about it.
Thanks again guys.
Gareth

[Ironduke]

Ok now I know what you are up to here goes...
The output will still be AC but don't get hung up on that, this is where the rectifier comes in, you will have to get hold of a suitable wiring loom of which there are several suppliers. My experience suggests they make a 'one size fits all' type looms. So some wires will be required some not, so technical know how is required. As for the output from the P200 engine bear in mind the stator was designed for modern machines so the output will exceed any requirements you'll need and usually exceed the requirements of modern machines - so you are safe.
Hopefully your stator still has wires running from it to the rubber junction box and ignition box - if so great. the wires from your new loom will connect to the rubber on engine junction box. From there they will go to the rectifier (to be rectified, see last post) to be turned to DC. This may then travel to your rear brake switch then on to the horn, light and light switch. This will all become clear when you get hold of a wiring diagram (scooterhelp.com will, literally, help) Your problem will be resolving the differences between your original wiring diagram and where it interfaces with the P200 unit, but to keep it simple the output from the rectifier is the point where the original wiring diagram takes over. Don't worry about it too much though, get the loom fitted then post again!

Cheers

[qpv8evo]

Many thanks,good info,its making a bit more sense to me now,I had planned to make my own loom since I am only running to horn,rear light and front light,its sounds from your description that the 12v runs to everything in series,two questions,what part of it makes it 12v instead of 6 and do I still need a battery (the scoot originally had one).
Im just about to search the various suppliers for conversion looms as they may be easier.

Gareth

[Ironduke]

The stator windings determine how many volts come out, these are wound from one piece of copper wire and the amount of coils it forms affects the voltage, more coils more volts. So you can see that the voltage is fixed and can only be changed by fitting a different coil (although there are various devices you could fit on the output side to raise or lower the voltage - but that gets complicated) If you read back through the posts you'll see the pro's and cons of retaining the battery but I suppose the biggest con is it makes things a little more complicated when putting your loom in. For instance I notice from the wiring diagrams for P200E before 1979 the input to the battery comes from the rectifier, however the one after 1979 is charged straight from the stator, also in both cases a fuse would have to be put inline to the charging circuit. You could make your own loom, after adapting the one I got I wish I'd done my own!

Cheers

[qpv8evo]

Ironduke hi,ive just ordered my loom from beedspeed which they supply as 152l2 with p200e engine but have also specified wires for a rear mounted brake switch and side panel mounted battery and air horns,will let you know how it goes as I have been told by them that I can also power a 55/60 halogen headlamp bulb.I will be fitting an LED rear tail and stop lamp behind the original lamp casing to save a bit of current draw.I am guessing that I will need to run the air horns relayed directly from the battery.

Gareth

[Ironduke]

Hope it all goes well Gareth - Beedspeed are really helpful with the advice as well. One thing to watch out for though was the new loom had thicker wires so I couldn't get it to run through the frame tunnel and get it past the steering column. In the end I cut the loom in half and rejoined it under the fuel tank, If I was to do it over or if I was doing a rebuild I'd recommend taking the gear and throttle cables out to give some more room, it's far easier to run a throttle cable after the loom (hindsight is such a wonderful thing!)
As for the air horns - will you be operating them from your normal horn button? If so then the wiring will be straight forward. Beedspeed normally supplies some good diagrams so you should be alright

Cheers

[joey]

Don't wish to be pedantic here but on a Vespa there is no form of rectification at all. All of the current is AC.
Current is produced by the stator and reduced to 12 volts by the regulator, but it is still AC. The battery is, and always has been, trickle charged direct from the stator.
The horn on a new P2 is powered by the battery, and is therefore DC, but thats all, which is why your horn doesn't work if you've got a flat battery.
If you want to use LED bulbs for your brake light then crack on, they'll still use less power but will not work at their full potential as you will only be using half of their cycle unless you fit a rectification diode inline on the brake circuit to convert to DC, but then you're just getting too complicated.

[jetex]

As ironduke says, the stator output is AC, and is changed to DC by the rectifier. You cannot use AC to charge a battery. I did away with the battery on my Lambretta because it ended up needing replacement after being laid up for the winter, and used a Vespa reglator/rectifier. If you use the DC take of from this ( which is normally the battery charging lead) and take this directly to the horn, then you will get a good horn ( if the other horn teminal is earthed via the horn button). Everything else will work fine on AC.

[qpv8evo]

Lots of thanks to all who have replied to this one,still awaiting new loom but from what I have read on here it looks like most things should fall into place when I start fitting it up,I think I will keep the battery purely to run the horns but it seems to be agreed that it is the only thing I will actually require it for.
Will post again when it actually works.............
Gareth

[Ironduke]

Not wanting to get into a technical war I will stand by what I said. I don't want anyone getting confused. To prove where your DC and AC is just put your meter on the AC volts range and try measure volts at your light fitting - you won't get a reading. The horn is designed for DC run from the battery however I acknowledge you can buy AC horns, I must therefore conclude some scooters must use AC at that end of the scooter. I'm not the worlds expert on scooter electrics but will help with what I have direct experience of. Of course 20 years in the mob as an electrician helps.

Cheers

[Ironduke]

I found some great diagrams on the Allstyles website. There are indeed some AC models, those without electric start are pure AC, those with electric start have a voltage regulator/rectifier (key word rectifier) so 2 circuits exist there, one AC the other DC

I thank you

[joey]

I'll get my coat ;D
My apologies as I have only just found out that there is an extra socket on the newer regulators which is apparently the rectifier side of things.
I bow to the superior knowledge of a REME spark
funny how they never seemed to able to get my BV working though!!

[Ironduke]

Lol - if you can get the BV onto the flight deck of my ship I'll give it a go!

All the Best

[joey]

Duke, you AFSC?

[davetiler]

I am restoring a 1965 sprint
the wiring diagram shows no battery
so going down that route
wired it up ,not the switch on the handlebar and tried to get a spark ,nothing,does everything need to be connected
dave