Rab
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 20
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Post by Rab on Sept 19, 2015 14:29:30 GMT
Need some help folks. Recently washed my t5 classic, next day it started no problem let it warm up as usual but when I took it off the stand it died. Changed plug fitted new dci unit still won't start. New to scooters so I need all the help I can get. Thanks in advance.
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Post by djloone on Sept 19, 2015 15:11:18 GMT
Start with the simplest stuff...have you a spark too begin with?
LOON-E
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Rab
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 20
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Post by Rab on Sept 19, 2015 18:15:06 GMT
No spark.
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Post by jackthekipper on Sept 20, 2015 5:27:00 GMT
start with the simplest simplest first......can of damp start sprayed on electrics..amazing what a drop of water can do in the wrong place
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Rab
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 20
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Post by Rab on Sept 20, 2015 10:11:14 GMT
I'll give it a go.thanks
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Rab
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Posts: 20
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Post by Rab on Sept 23, 2015 19:50:08 GMT
Tested green to white reading 60 Red to white 90 Red to green 60 Should I replace stator if so what's the best value for money. My scooter is a '96 T5 classic Thanks.
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Post by sime66 on Sept 23, 2015 21:11:06 GMT
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Post by vespasco on Sept 24, 2015 16:18:52 GMT
Yes they are pretty bad readings! Red to white should read 110 ऊँs +/-5 Green to white 500 ऊँs +/- 20
I eneded up buying a BGM stator
Or follow Simes lead and get busy with a soldering iron
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Post by henri on Sept 24, 2015 18:27:47 GMT
or if not confident in ya soldering ,beedspeed do it for bout £20 plus cost of coils n pick up , bout £30, H
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Rab
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 20
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Post by Rab on Sept 24, 2015 20:39:09 GMT
I'm gonna buy a new one because I ain't to confident with soldering, just need to know is it worth buying a piaggio or cheaper copy? ?
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Post by doulsy on Sept 24, 2015 21:13:01 GMT
would a stator from say a px125 fit p200 engine? or could you use the coils? reason im asking is because my 200 engine has sat for 25 year, 10 of wich in a garden, whats the chances the stator is ok? is the stator in my 125 engine of any use to my 200 rebuild?
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Post by bigd on Sept 25, 2015 6:45:59 GMT
Si you could get a wee side line going, "Sime's Stator Repairs"
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Post by sime66 on Sept 25, 2015 7:23:33 GMT
Don't throw your old ones out, BigD, that's for sure; beter than a shonky new one if you've got the inclination to repair. Rab, when you're taking advice on here about who rates which supplier, brand, country of origin, and searching around and trying to decide whether to spend £20 or £90, and asking the sellers those questions too and getting no reliable answers, and realise that what you spend is no guarantee of quality, or where it was made, and what you see in a photo when you buy is not what you're going to get; and unless you can walk into a decent scooter shop and look at it yourself before you buy, you'll begin to see why I decided to repair my proper old one with parts I could check and inspect before I used them. I had just bought a new one too, and when it arrived I decided I'd be happier reusing my old one. I'd also say that, given the lack of care, and shoddy stuff, that Beedspeed have shipped-out with my last few orders (not one order without error or some unusable parts in 2015), I would not trust them to make me a sandwich for my lunch, let alone something I'm going to trust in my scooter. Not to mention that you won't be able to check the parts they've used until it's back on your doorstep and you've already paid them to fit and wire it, and the two-way post. You will get differing opinions on this, but that's mine; rely as little as possible on others, and DIY whenever you can. SIP and Scootercentre have also both sent me shabby stuff this year as well, and Ebay is a lottery. For new and reliable, I'd go to Wasp (just because they've never sold me poor quality stuff, so I trust therm) – but they have such a small stock of stuff and £80 spent there is not necessarily a guarantee of quality or reliability (nor is a brand name; they're just bought in and rebranded; these big brand names don't have their own factories in Italy, and every Chinaman, , Indian, Korean etc has a home-made 'Piaggio' stamp): www.wasp-performance.co.uk/onlineshop/prod_1828015-Ignition-Stator-Plate-PX-EFL.htmlDoulsy, as far as I know, it should still be a 5 wire, 5 coil stator and the same. It isn't the engine size that dictates the stator, it's the loom. If your 125 was the same as your 200 will be – 5 wire (3 to CDI (red, white, green) and an unregulated AC (blue) & earth (black)), 5 coil & pickup then they're the same. But there's other stators with the coils wired differently or with more windings for different reasons or different looms. Unless a PX flyside casing is different to a P – pretty sure it isn't – , physically they are the same and will fit, so you'll probably be alright for a standard rebuild. To be certain, you'd have to check the wiring diagram though, which I'm not going to do, so best to see what others say; I think you can though.
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Post by henri on Sept 25, 2015 8:58:22 GMT
wow ,nice rant there sime ,could of been me for a minute ,100% agreement . doulsy, all px stators are the same ,125/150/200 exact same .there even same coils n pick ups as pk's ,just pk's have a different baseplate . if your stators sat for years the thing to check is that rust hasnt started in the laminates.the layers of steel plates coils sit on .if theres rust there it makes the stator coils do weird things ,no voltage or crazy voltage spikes .if its rust free its probably good to go ,they dont "go off" with age ,so long as a stator/electrical fault isnt the reason your p200 got laid up in first place that is . Rab , if youve the money its worth buying genuine for peace of mind alone . i'm tight n use lml genuines from india ,but can re-wire/re-solder if they turn up crap.look for "lml genuine" in listing an on packaging ,an in photo's the better quality 1's have brown blobs of melted plastic on soldered joints sealing them . but it is a gamble either way ,so best if ya can to buy from a english seller so returns are possible .as sime said ,wasp performance are seeing some of my money nowadays an have never steered me wrong since gazpx pointed me in there direction . H
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Post by bigd on Sept 25, 2015 9:19:51 GMT
Wasp doesn't have T5 Stator plate in stock at the minute, looking like Sip or Beedspeed for a genuine one. As Sime says it's a bit of a mine field about the quality.
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Post by sime66 on Sept 25, 2015 15:16:26 GMT
Wasn't really a rant; just my morning wake-up ponderings............. It is a bugger though, not knowing what you're buying, even if you're prepared to pay for quality. Doulsy's just asked on the other thread about all the other bits, and it's the same answer again – bleedin' nightmare. Don't want to steer Rab's thread too far away from his initial enquiry, but I've been cogitating on this during the day, because of Doulsy's compatibility question, and then BigD saying a T5 stator is different to PX/E, so I had a little mooch round on SIP when I got home (good for info, if not necessarily to buy). For a 5 coil, 5 wire stator, there's quite a few choices, and one thing we haven't yet mentioned here, but which I came across when I swapped my 3-pin to a 5-pin reg/rec, is the wattage of stators and reg/recs. See here (bottom table): www.sip-scootershop.com/files/catalogue/index.html#/367At some stage (circa Cosa/elestart/indicators/battery) the wattage has increased from 80W to 90W and 120W. So I don't know what wattage my old stator is rated at, or how to measure it, but if I were buying new, and spending on something decent, I'd be looking at the wattage too. BigD; are you sure a T5 stator is different? If so, is it physically different (maybe for the flywheel, or is it wired different? Or is it just because it's a 120W? From a quick look at SIP I can't see, other than wattage, that it is different – for example, this little baby is Piaggio, for Cosa/PX-E/Lusso/T5/'98/My, and is 120W: www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=23387100I'm not sure how much of a problem you chaps have with brightness of bulbs because I have my indicators on my DC circuit, and have a halogen headlight so no problems; or with batteries charging for your starter motors, if that's your thing ya poofs, but unless a more powerful stator would mean having to replace the reg/rec as well, that 120W would be a better choice wouldn't it? - I doubt you'll find wattage stated on cheapies anyway. I did write it all out and add it up a few years ago; might dig it out sometime........ Also, H; I notice the LML is 96W too, so for £50 might be a good'un as you said (as long as quality is OK, or like you, it's worth checking/servicing before using): www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/stator+plate+lml+for+lml+125_85180000...Just thinking aloud really, and seeing if you chaps have thought about this, or have picked up more about what's needed, what's available and if it effects anything else.
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Post by henri on Sept 25, 2015 15:38:41 GMT
t5 stators only have 1 timing mark ,an its for 15deg btdc if memorys working , an also flywheels different but think thats a lightened/weight thing not internal diameter . so in theory a px stator could be fitted on a t5 , you'd need to mark outside of flywheel where the magnet cross over/timing trigger point is then mark cases where this is at 15btdc.then set the leading edge of pick-up on stator to this mark .this would give you a rough timing that engine would run on so you can strobe it to get exact.same deal as converting a points to lectronic where cases dont have timing marks . yep sime the lml is in the middle for wattage ,an also if anybod chooses one the values on metering are different to px/pk's .lml owners club tech page has them as from memory its 470-480 rather than 500-+20, an 95-+5 rather than 110-+5 , but dont trust my noggin to off remembered right . given choice between sip n beedys would take sip everytime on stators , as beedys pattern "swiss" stuff is just indian under a code-name , only swiss thing i'd buy is a cuckoo clock ,but have never worked out how to mount it on my scooter .have to go nxt to my ashtray i guess . H
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Post by sime66 on Sept 25, 2015 16:58:18 GMT
SWISS is Swiss Auto Products (manufacturers), New Delhi. Their website link doesn't work, but they have a Facebook page: www.facebook.com/swissautoproductsI suppose at least they do brand their own stuff, rather than put someone else's trademark on it. - Still to be avoided though. That's good info on the T5 stator, H; and starting from scratch with no stator timing marks - thanks for that - just to tidy up the curiosity really. Next job will be helping Rab take his flywheel off, change the stator and set & strobe the timing then.............. Are you ready for that, Rab? - Don't throw the old one out!
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Post by henri on Sept 25, 2015 20:57:09 GMT
just been wandering on faecesbook , guy on the t5 pages stating time to p200 23deg btdc , so am not sure now ,always doubt my memory thats why i keep manuals to hand .cept i'm away til morning an will check then . as much as i dont trust my memory thats nothin compared to my mistrust on facebook . the clot thickens , H
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Post by sime66 on Sept 26, 2015 4:17:12 GMT
Can't sleep; got to dish out a bסּllסּcking to the bloke doing my barrel in the morning – don't ask; I'll update that when I can................anyway, time to do some ferreting on the T5 timing: (The chaps at Woolacombe this weekend are probably just finding somewhere to crash about this time of the morning) Haynes says:T5 Ignition timing advance at 2500-3000 rpm: 16º BTDC. That might be a bit outdated (for modern fuel?), so for comparison, this is what Haynes says for the others: P125X & P150X: 21º ± 1º BTDC. PX125E & PX150E: 18º ± 1º BTDC. P200E & PX200E: 23º ± 1º BTDC. I think it was you, H, who recently said not to strobe at tick-over; this suggests checking it at 2500-3000 rpm by the looks of it, so that info's been filed in the memory banks too. I've been thinking about this setting timing with no marks malarkey – just for idle curiosity really; seems to me: * You need to know where the woodruff key is at TDC (woodruff key location is cast into outside of my flywheel, but can be measured with flywheel off) * You need to know where the woodruff key is relative to the trigger (magnet crossover) on the flywheel. * From that you can work out where the trigger (magnet crossover) is at TDC. * You then need to mark that on the casings, and then also your timing advance; I'm using 19º BTDC. * The stator then needs to be rotated so that the pickup (you reckon the leading edge) crosses the flywheel trigger at that timing advance mark. (with stator timing marks you're just approximating pickup rotation to correct advance then checking against your own timing markings with strobe). BUT, that's only a set-up point to get it running; then you need to strobe to get it right, whether there's stator timing markings or not. (dodgy sketch, but it is 4am - & I've shown wrong edge of pickup, but I doubt anyone will look anyway):
Lastly for this morning, checked ignition timings against Beedspeed table, which confirms 16º BTDC, and a tweak for modern fuel (maybe the 15º I think you said before?):
(…...think your Facebook chap was having a brain-fart?)
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Post by vespasco on Sept 27, 2015 19:01:02 GMT
One thing to consider with fitting a px stator to T5 is the back of the stator, where it sits over the flywhee bearing housing. I only mention this as the T5 has a larger fly bearing, meaning less clearance between the two.
On early Rally cases, which use the same size fly bearing and seal as the T5, the rear of the PX stator needs modifying to fit. Maybe, im not sure, the T5 would have the same problem?
16° BTDC is correct
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Post by henri on Sept 28, 2015 7:05:56 GMT
not sure about the rear ,havent heard any chat on that , but the slots for screws n timing adjustment need elongating to get it round to 15btdc .i remember nick saying he had to file his ones to retard his p200 as it was eating pistons regulary. i think theres more meat on rally cases ,thats why there the tuners choice ,t5's are notorious for cases cracking on bearing changes on the flyside as the bearing housings real thin .even when done by right methods n somebod who knows his onions , micro-fracturing from hard use leaves em a disaster waiting to happen . an lets face it what t5 didnt get hard usage at some point,that was the point of em, a 125 that could drag a p200 , H
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Post by sime66 on Sept 28, 2015 8:06:16 GMT
I hadn't realised the baseplate on a proper T5 stator was different; with a smaller OD and notches instead of slots. I suppose the baseplate ID for the crank/bearing overcomes any differences there too, but you both reckon a PX stator fits with a bit of work – and perhaps the notches lengthened if needed. Some pics – to brighten the place up a bit:
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cb
1st Class Ticket
Posts: 64
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Post by cb on Oct 2, 2015 16:34:41 GMT
Hello sorry to hijack this thread but I am having issues with my spark and want to check my stator plate. Am I reading this correct before I start on my bike? Red wire to white wire on cdi to read 110 ohms +/- 5ohms and green wire to white wire to read 500 ohms? I take it I can do this by just pulling wires out of the cdi and not have to get to the stator plate?
Thanks in advance..
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Post by vespasco on Oct 2, 2015 17:43:08 GMT
Yes thats correct cb For a T5 (and most other PX i thought) 500 ohms +/-20 110 ohms +/-5 This will test the ignition coil on the stator, one of the things needed to make a spark.
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Post by henri on Oct 2, 2015 20:08:46 GMT
as vesp's says , same readings on px/t5/pk ,try this ,http://vespasmallframeforum.proboards.com/thread/9612/torque-figures-ignition-measuring-values , the full values for a stator n cdi box when metered , H
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cb
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Post by cb on Oct 2, 2015 20:17:58 GMT
Thanks vespasco....
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cb
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Post by cb on Oct 2, 2015 20:19:17 GMT
Just tested stator values. 515ohms white to green and red to white 111ohms.. So looking like not the stator plate for no spark
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Post by henri on Oct 2, 2015 20:29:14 GMT
thats good , good news but means ya got to look elsewhere , so not allround celebrations just yet ,H
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cb
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Post by cb on Oct 2, 2015 20:38:41 GMT
I think its the HT lead, the end that goes in to the cdi unit H. I have screwed it on to the spike inside, but the lead comes away in my hand far to easily which makes me think the connection is rubbish. Any tips on how to get this end of the HT lead to connect correctly?
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