cakey
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 18 
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Post by cakey on Jul 13, 2017 20:50:27 GMT
Currently running a mallossi 210 with matching transfers a sip road 2 and upjetted si 24mm carb. It was dyno tested and has a power of 15.5 hp. I believe it has stock gearing and I feel it's far to revvy for my liking.
What would your advice be about upping the gearing to just give a bit more top end speed and just calm the revs down a tad but without killing the power.
Would just a primary drive kit do the job and what number of teeth per cog would you recommend?
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me
High Number
Posts: 105
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Post by me on Jul 14, 2017 14:31:01 GMT
DRT do a 24 primary drive cog - but it would be best to strip and put in a longer 4th again DRT have a great range of gearing - but for ease and expense the 24tooth DRT primary.
15hp don't sound much - I think the exhaust and carb are letting it down - is this what you wanted ? Ive got 27HP out of one of my Mallossi but gave up when i got 36HP out of the small frame....
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Post by pxguru on Jul 14, 2017 15:09:25 GMT
As said 15bhp isn't much. Up gearing without more power will only go faster down hill with the wind behind. With the power you have it would go better if you down gear to 68/22!
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Post by ironsloth on Jul 14, 2017 18:20:49 GMT
I've heard rumours of Lincs Lambrettas having a Lambretta pulling 47hbp on the dyno...... It pulled 40 until the owner changed the exhaust and re jetted.... 😳
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me
High Number
Posts: 105
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Post by me on Jul 14, 2017 19:43:49 GMT
47 is still not much - i'd think that would be a RB250 - i see where your coming from with the exhaust and carb options - imagine getting 49-50HP from a smallframe 180.... now thats nuts. I gave up tuning standard P2 barrels years ago i was easily getting 18HP and some got 20Hp on a good old cast iron barrel - got to admit I did use a non standard piston and a reed valve but still do-able on the cast iron...
As the old man once said "Nowt wrong with a good bit of cast iron" - As you can tell i started drinking earlier than normal tonight....
Also Dyno shhmineoo... I ve lost count of the number of tunned scooters that have come back from a dyno run then only to blow or run sh*te on the road - all good for a power run but running on the road or track always needs re-adjusting, normally in the upward direction. Jeting on a rolling road never gives accurate road conditions. OK for the power run and the "mines got this much HP" pub talk but at least 50% will need a road use adjustment.
- the 22/68 (3.09) primary ratio would make it rev out much quicker - the 23/65 (2.82) standard or the 24/65 (2.75) lengthened - i think he wants to lengthen the ratio to use the extra revs to increase the top speed and reduce the top end revs.
Increaseing the drive ratio from the 23 to the DRT 24 would be the cheapest and easiest option. Still not much power for the 210 but still a ridable scooter.
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Post by ironsloth on Jul 14, 2017 20:23:19 GMT
Yep, was a RB250, and the main man at Lincs Lambrettas agrees, that's not a true 47 because there's no wind resistance etc. just ideal to set up.
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me
High Number
Posts: 105
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Post by me on Jul 14, 2017 21:15:31 GMT
Theres generally 2 ways to measure the power output - at the wheel or at the crank - all dynos that most shops use are measured at the wheel, as thats the easiest and most conveniant way to measure the power - an output of 40 at the wheel could be 45 maybe more at the crank, the way the power is transfered through the box reduces the HP at the rear wheel... I'd go for a rear wheel power output any day as thats where it really counts.
47 at the wheel could be at least 50-52 at the crank - a great power output in anyones book.
I'm working on engines at the moment with around 175cc and outputs of 50HP at the crank, were looking at getting the barrels matched up on the small frame blocks. But, and lots of buts, me thinks going down the billeted blocks is the only way i can get them to work... Phuuck those Italian tunning houses and the access to the CNC machined cases. I need money and lots of it.... anyone got next weeks lottery numbers they want to share. (but with only me)
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Post by pxguru on Jul 15, 2017 7:03:42 GMT
- the 22/68 (3.09) primary ratio would make it rev out much quicker - the 23/65 (2.82) standard or the 24/65 (2.75) lengthened - i think he wants to lengthen the ratio to use the extra revs to increase the top speed and reduce the top end revs. Increaseing the drive ratio from the 23 to the DRT 24 would be the cheapest and easiest option. Still not much power for the 210 but still a ridable scooter. Are you advising this guy that his scooter with a 15 bhp reading from a Dyno, will pull a 24/65 gearbox on the road and actually go faster? |
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me
High Number
Posts: 105
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Post by me on Jul 15, 2017 8:34:40 GMT
Cakey did say its far to revvy for him now - suggesting that it is revving out past what he's comfortable with so the 24 front sprocket will obvioulsy bring the revs back down and not loose and speed. maybe it would go faster with a slight tail wind and on an incline.
Swapping out the main drive cog would involve a full engine strip so the 24 tooth clutch sprocket would be the quick and cheapest option.
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Post by pxguru on Jul 15, 2017 10:06:40 GMT
The Cosa 24 tooth helical is £75. I think we are saying similar, at best it would nearly go as fast at the standard 23 tooth but not any faster on the flat. Would certainly rev less, so would fix that problem but would not be in 4th so often, as it would struggle even more than the usual 210 does.
The feeling of revving high would go away if it had more power in mid range. I think this is where the focus should be.
Cakey, where is the timing set to?
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 15, 2017 14:12:56 GMT
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cakey
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 18
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Post by cakey on Jul 15, 2017 16:52:06 GMT
The Cosa 24 tooth helical is £75. I think we are saying similar, at best it would nearly go as fast at the standard 23 tooth but not any faster on the flat. Would certainly rev less, so would fix that problem but would not be in 4th so often, as it would struggle even more than the usual 210 does. The feeling of revving high would go away if it had more power in mid range. I think this is where the focus should be. Cakey, where is the timing set to? |
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cakey
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 18
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Post by cakey on Jul 15, 2017 16:53:42 GMT
The Cosa 24 tooth helical is £75. I think we are saying similar, at best it would nearly go as fast at the standard 23 tooth but not any faster on the flat. Would certainly rev less, so would fix that problem but would not be in 4th so often, as it would struggle even more than the usual 210 does. The feeling of revving high would go away if it had more power in mid range. I think this is where the focus should be. Cakey, where is the timing set to? |
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cakey
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 18
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Post by cakey on Jul 15, 2017 17:03:19 GMT
The timing was set at Readspeed I believe it's 18* tdc.
The engine was in the bike when I bought it and I was told it was standard. I fitted the 210 kit to give me a few extra horses to pull up the hills better. When I removed the old cylinder I could see a polished con rod and ported casings so I wouldn't be surprised if there could be a short T5 fourth gear in there as well would that explain the high revving
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Post by pxguru on Jul 16, 2017 6:19:19 GMT
If it is 18 degrees, then its ok but 19 would be better. Check it with a timing light to confirm.
So much for the engine being standard. Any chance that it might be a 60mm crank?
The T5 4th only changes the speed by about 2mph. Is important for pulling 4th gear but won't notice so much. The feeling of revving high is because it is struggling with the low power.
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cakey
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 18
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Post by cakey on Jul 16, 2017 23:13:22 GMT
No cant be a 60 mm crank it only has the cylinder and head gaskets that were supplied with the 210 kit, I found the drt 24 tooth clutch gear cog for standard 65 tooth on sip website would that do the trick?
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Post by pxguru on Jul 17, 2017 5:33:19 GMT
I think the 24 tooth will be a waste of money. Will be an interesting experiment but a waste of money. A malossi 210 kit wasn't the best choice for a tourer set up. With a 60 mm crank the Malossi 210 can be made to pull better but still not as good as others.
Now you have the 210 I would focus on making it more powerful before any gearing change. When it gets near 80mph with the existing 23/65 gearing, then it will then be time to up gear.
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 17, 2017 13:54:07 GMT
Is it the Malossi 210 sport( as many people view it as a premier league touring kit) or mhr ( that some people still tour with) kit you have?.
I know someone with the 210 sport, upgear and vortex exhaust that loves the torque hit😉.
Check what Sticky says in the YouTube link I posted above.
Horses for courses, I realize it may not be to everyone's taste😉.
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cakey
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 18
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Post by cakey on Jul 17, 2017 16:38:33 GMT
Right chaps I've decided to put an end to this right now 🖐This engine is coming out and a standard p2 is going back in for now !
The mallossi engine is going to be stripped and used as a donor to build a proper engine something around the 35hp + , I've just had a tax rebate and I'm spending it on me for a change 👍.
If you were going to build an engine for your scooter what components would you use e.g. Gearing, clutch, reed valve or rotary, carb, exhaust etc and why?
More of a torque monster than a revvy street racer !!
Thank you in advance 🤝
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Post by pxguru on Jul 17, 2017 18:37:49 GMT
And I suppose it has to do 80 mpg and last for 50,000 miles  Well done on the tax rebate but it is only possible to get to 35 bhp with rpm. Have a look on youtube, anything over 30 bhp is a screamer. The Malossi 210 (old 210) you already have will make 25 bhp as it is without spending anything much, just some intelligent porting. Will need a real clutch and 24 tooth to go with that but thats about it. |
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cakey
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 18
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Post by cakey on Jul 17, 2017 18:54:11 GMT
If your pushing the 80 mph I wouldn't mind it screaming but at 65-70 mph it's annoying my tinatus
👂
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 18, 2017 9:04:13 GMT
Look forward to hearing how you get on, bud.
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cakey
2nd Class Ticket
Posts: 18
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Post by cakey on Sept 19, 2017 19:17:52 GMT
Engine has been stripped and new bearings and oil seals have been fitted. The gearbox has a t5 4th gear and the primary is a standard 23/65. The clutch is a cosa type! I've fitted a BGM 60mm crank (rotary). As the casings are ported for a Malossi kit I'm going to get the 210 sport kit.
A couple of questions for you would the DRT 24 tooth clutch gear work with the short 4th gear (lengthen but not too much??
Also best place for the cylinder packer below? Or above? Taking into consideration the gearing I have.
I plan on using a 26mm or 28mm pinasco si carb and jl exhaust? Any advice would be appreciated cheers
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Post by mijapxman on Sept 19, 2017 20:24:40 GMT
DRT do a 24 primary drive cog - but it would be best to strip and put in a longer 4th again DRT have a great range of gearing - but for ease and expense the 24tooth DRT primary. 15hp don't sound much - I think the exhaust and carb are letting it down - is this what you wanted ? Ive got 27HP out of one of my Mallossi but gave up when i got 36HP out of the small frame.... 'me' seems to be the guy to help, hopefully he's reading this and will point you in the right direction, mate 👍. Cakey, you say you have a Cosa clutch, is it a strengthened one? Does your 60mm carb have inlet timing modifications compared to a standard carb? Has your carb inlet on the casing been ported, to enlarge the inlet timing? Rough Rule of thumb is gasket below gives power at higher revs, on top give more torque at lower revs. The link below 👇 shows another option to using a gasket at the top of the barrel, other heads are available from other manufacturers/ shops. www.mrp-racing.de/CNC-cylinderhead-for-Malossi-210-MHR-Sport-TOURINGI'M m not recommending this head, just showing another touring set up, if you read the description. Further reading below 👇 www.pressreader.com/uk/scootering/20170321/283828623326549You may wish to try a gasket at the top of the barrel and a 23 tooth clutch first to see if you like it, then think about the 24tooth at a later date? Possibly with a change to a box type exhaust. Other members may wish to join in, with their opinions, which may be better than mine, if they have had more experience of these of these parts combinations.☺ Good luck. Mij☺ |
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Post by mijapxman on Sept 24, 2017 11:07:46 GMT
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