pink
1st Class Ticket
Posts: 65
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Post by pink on Jun 29, 2017 17:17:24 GMT
Guys. One of my head bolts is threaded in casing Already oversize! Should I drill n tap new size or any tips on good glue etc to jolt b*st**d down? Cheers all. Pink
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Post by shipscat on Jun 29, 2017 18:51:41 GMT
i've just done this today don't try re-tap your casing helicoil it instead it much stronger , you say its already over size have you gone from m7 to m8 ? i will try and upload a pic of how i did it trying to post photo's here is a load of b*ll*cks !!!
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Post by ironsloth on Jun 29, 2017 22:26:02 GMT
I agree with shipscat, helicoil is the way to go.
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Post by mijapxman on Jun 29, 2017 22:45:53 GMT
Rivnuts are ace 👍
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Post by pxguru on Jul 1, 2017 3:40:27 GMT
Is so sad. Once you get the studs back in.....never ever take them out again! There is no reason they ever need to be taken out. Swinging the engine down to take the barrel off is way quicker and easier anyway and the risk of ruining your engine is zero
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 1, 2017 10:58:02 GMT
On the other hand me and many others have taken hundreds out and never had a problem but as guru says if you don't take them out you won't ruin them. I'll just keep doing it way tho.😉 It's the same method that attaches a carb to T5 and later PXcases and no one says don't remove the carb. Have a look at the case at the carb on this thread, if your worried about threads in alloy, revnuts or quality inserts during your rebuild may be the way to go. By the way, this is me agreeing with pxguru, as his is the safe method.👍 Ride free. Jim☺ vespa.proboards.com/thread/6206/px-build
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 1, 2017 12:10:49 GMT
I've been thinking about threads in alloy cases in general and to me, the main problems have been: Over tightening the studs (not using a torque wrench) and messing up the alloy threads. Not cleaning the thread hole or stud thread, ( I use Cotton buds and thinners, ,etc),( wire brush,tap and die to original size). Cross threading the stud threads with the case threads ( more care needed ). www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/cylinder+stud+m7x140+mm+_15065700The above gives good reasons to change them but may be a touch pedantic for some 😱.
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Post by swm on Jul 1, 2017 14:29:35 GMT
Funny how sip say change em regularly when they sell em at nearly four quid a pop !😉
Cheers.
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 1, 2017 17:46:09 GMT
I wondered how long it would take anyone to notice that lol.😉 Still best practice to change them, (allegedly)😉 ( I always do if fitting a new kit along with new washers and nuts and try to use original piaggio ). And after saying all that, I can still see where pxguru is coming from!👍😉 All the best. Mij😉😀
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Post by shipscat on Jul 1, 2017 18:29:03 GMT
i completely agree with what what everyone says but we are talking about Vespa's ,sometimes sh*t happens for no reason i'm just trying to show the cheapest way to arrive at the best results with the tools you have on hand , how to drill and tap holes in the correct orientation without specialist equipment in this case maybe it will help somebody
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 1, 2017 23:26:39 GMT
Shipscat, I totally agree with you and what your showing is a valuable and worth while addition to the site ☺ imho. I'm just putting other info and view points into the mix for fixing our beloved Italian shopping bikes. All the best 😉☺ P.s I have at least 3 different size helicoil kits in my shed, used them before and will no doubt use them in the future. Imo rivnuts and timeserts have the edge on helicoils , but agree that price and equipment need has a bearing on use.👍 Jim.☺
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Post by pxguru on Jul 2, 2017 4:37:47 GMT
If you do get yourself in trouble, there several ways to fix a stripped thread and they all work with various degrees of success. There is also welding and re drilling but the metal is never quite good as the original. All I was trying to point out that there is no need to actually remove them. If they are stripped at the top and there isn't enough good thread to get a head nut on with a spacer, then, and only then, change the stud. SIP sell Malossi and Pinasco engine casings now too, they do look good (especially the Pinasco reed) but who has that kind of money to waste? Before using threadlock, some of the earlier studs were designed to be a tighter thread at the casing end others were just squashed in a vice from the factory. Either way if you look closely at a stud after it is removed there will be aluminum particles on it and sometimes a small chunk of thread. Can't get away with this too often before the threads are knackered. Taking the studs out takes way longer than swinging the engine. Piaggio have even put a little more clearance in the frame in later years, so the carb box can stay on while doing this. Just seems like a 'no brainer'
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 2, 2017 15:19:17 GMT
,unfortunately many cases I've worked on, have already had the barrel studs taken off many times and have required remedial work at these areas anyway.My mention of carb bolt threads was alluding to the thread damage , frequently found in this area too, as a result of Piaggio changing to the T5 style Allen bolts screwed into a thread cut into the alloy case and the amount of times carbs have to be removed or loosen themselves due to vibration( sometimes causing the top end to size) ,equally many Pro builder/tuners insist on fitting new barrel studs when doing rebuilds or fitting kits, some even fit Timeserts etc, in areas they consider week spots as a matter of course. I have also used the method you describe in the past and found many times, I still have had to take the studs out anyway, due to the aforementioned damage, which then make the method feel like time wasted, so horses for courses.
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 2, 2017 15:42:31 GMT
Forgot to add, helped a mate to strip a MK1 P200e engine a few weeks ago, he was going to fit an other standard type barrel with a scooterotica, "type" exhaust port tune I'd done for him, anyway the barrel was hard to come off and felt like the barrel studs were gripping it, on eventual removal we found that at some point, the threads for 2 of the barrel studs had been repaired 1 by alloy welding and the threads recut and the other drilled and helicoiled, BOTH slightly out of position which meant when it was originally rebuilt after this "fix" you had to slide the barrel and head on the cases then the barrel studs in a set sequence! AAAARGH!!!💩☠. It had and was running well for years. Oh and it was one of the many long distance National Rally going scoots from around here, that were "tuned" by fitting a 28mm ( big boys) carb and PM or Mikeck Exhaust, using a standard p200e barrel. Mostly on cutdowns 💀. It away getting repaired ( welded) at the moment.😉
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Post by pxguru on Jul 3, 2017 4:49:47 GMT
I just can't understand why so many guys in sheds take their studs out. Taking a good stud out of a good casing for the only reason of taking the barrel off is just criminal, when you can just swing the engine more easily. You can see from your recent disaster where this ends up, where it always ends up. Seen many horrible messes just the same over the years and its just sad, especially as they are not made anymore.
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 3, 2017 11:48:14 GMT
Aye, I used to say the same thing to others, it was even written about in a scooter mag feature many ,many years ago and I used to show them to no avail! So the thing is, most of the engines I work on ( not many now thru choice) belong to what a the scooter labs review called " big hitters" In my case "mostly ex big hitters"lol and have been "tinkered" with since the 80's and imho these are the guys that bought the 200 scoots new , stayed with the scene thu the leantimes and stilll have scootsl and if it wasn't for them a lot less 200s would be available.I get great satisfaction playing a small part in their history and keeping them running. No matter how they have been treated, it's part of scooter history. My history. 👌😉 (Till they're banned completely). Ride free.
Long live the rivnut , timesert and helicoil popular front.☠😵. Proudly associated to the garden shed and allotment club UK.☠💀 Beat you to it ironsloth 😉👏
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Post by ironsloth on Jul 3, 2017 17:06:38 GMT
You forgot cable tie and gaffa tape!!
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