BEAST 2 – YOU KNOW YOU WANT T(W)O!!

[sime66]

(I wrote this before the Gearbox Visualiser got so gutsy, thinking when The Beast is set up and the repairs are done on Old Faithful, I’ll be needing a new project to think about; although I’m a bit bogged-down at the moment, it’s best to think ahead and have a bit of a plan, so I’m posting this anyway).

I love The Beast; proper job, complete success; wouldn't really want to change my ride.

BUT, whilst I was splitting this engine on Friday evening I was thinking about what I’m going to do with it, and it occurred to me I should do some measuring whilst I’ve got it apart; port heights, deck height, squish, volumes and the like (maybe best attempt at measure of inlet timing and crank too without removing it – we know roughly what it will be and what cutting of inlet and crank would be needed anyway.

I’ll tell you roughly what I’m thinking about as factors:

1) I would quite like to end up with this engine back in my scooter; it’s the one on my paperwork, and it’s not so easy to put ‘The Beast’ on it instead because it’s a 150, so can’t get it verified as a 125. But I’m really happy with the engine I’ve just built, so wouldn’t want to change much.

2) I abso-bleedin’-lutely don’t want to spend much money, but measuring, calculating and cutting doesn’t cost anything now I’ve got all the tools and leant from last time.

3) So maybe I could just open my inlet and sort its timing, raise and open my transfers, get my exhaust port the right size and height and open it up in the barrel, tweak the cylinder, skim the head and sort my squish and compression ratio.

4) At some stage I’m going to have to let one or other of these engines go, but this one here has just had £400 spent on a rebuild only a couple of thousand kms ago (I’d have to check my fuel records to put an accurate figure on it; one short Summer), so I'll be buggered if I’m going to sell it for only £4-500; it’s going nowhere as it is because it isn’t viable to sell it for only the amount I’ve just spent on it.

5) The other option is just to rebuild it and hang on to it until I find a frame to put it in then sell a scooter, but that’s not so appealing to me in my garden.

I should have a good measure anyway, while it’s apart, use my morning wake-up cogitating time through the Summer to get the design sorted, and have it as Winter 2016/17 project, and maybe have it ready to put in the frame so I can do the engine mounts on The Beast without downtime (set one up while I’m doing maintenance on the other).

It would be good to do something different this time, but even if not, I could learn from what I did before, adjust if there’s anything that can be improved on The Beast performance, and generally get another splendid engine for little more than I’ve already spent on this one.

Vespasco, I know one of your options was to re-register your spare as a 125; this wouldn’t be cheap enough and its serial number is a 150. Likewise I could be looking for a frame but your’s is too far away to make it financially worthwhile.

I’m open to other suggestions, the reason I mention it now is that I was thinking about it whilst I was splitting it, and saw how lovely and new it all looks, and thinking about what I could usefully do while I’ve got it in bits.

Here’s a few photos of barrel, head, piston; it looks like I’ve had a bit of a leak (didn’t notice any problems), and it looks quite sooty, but remember this was Summer 2014; I’ve learnt quite a lot about the carb and stuff since then; I tended to just stay rich and safe, so that’s probably it; don’t worry too much about that.







































The only things I’m really noticing are the head leak, the carbonny piston, the marks on the crown where the spark plug is, and the pretty worn cruciform for so few miles. Anything else you chaps see might be of interest; the purpose was mainly to get the drain hole fixed, and I’m not looking for extra jobs yet, but might as well have a little think before putting it back together now I’ve got it split.

[mushroom]

I had a cruciform as bad as that and it rode fine and I've had one that looked better than that and jumped out of 4th constantly

[pxguru]

Fitted a SIP hardend crux in mine. Expensive but I think will be worth it. I hope I wont be seeing it for a long time.

If you are going to sell one engine it might be more interesting to make a fast one with an expansion

[vespasco]

It had crossed my mind sime, you have a 125...but i know you want to keep it

i can't see anything obvious that you've not already spotted

I'm still using the same cruxiform as, hhmmm? 10000km? it's the same one as when i first built the pinasco! although during my last rebuild, i reversed it this time, although it was still in better condition than yours sime. Good ol' TDH gearbox

plenty of choices and plenty of time to consider what to do with it

[sime66]

Don't know why we're all bangin' on about the cruciform; I only mentioned it to save any replies the bother of stating the bleedin' obvious!  tee hee. 
Seriously though; I remembered you'd turned yours over, vespasco, and I had thought I'd probably tidy mine up and do the same; flip it until I get round to doing whatever it is I end up doing with this engine. We had a chat about those SIP hardened ones, I think when you did your Tourer, pxguru? This engine was before that, and I decided against it on The Beast. One thing I do remember deciding I didn't fancy tackling on this one before though, was the cush-drive, so that might be a contributing factor, and deffo will be on the list when I do this engine. I'll have a decent look at the gears too; no gears jumping on this one, mushroom..
It will all go back together as it is for now, because now I've done my mounts and drain I've got a complete, no problems, running-lovely-when-removed spare, in case The Beast goes bang! I'll clean the piston and head (to measure), and lap the barrel-to-head mating surfaces to sort the little leak.
I'll do all my measuring as planned; I'll allow one weekend then get it tidied away. That all needs doing whatever I decide to do, and if I've got some numbers to cogitate I can start playing with options better.
There's Autumn jobs to do on the Frame (disc shocks and rust rear and above engine), and engine mounts on The Beast too (while it's out to do the rust), so this one is Winter 2016 at the earliest.
I quite like the idea of building 'a fast one', but unfortunately I'd rather do that to the other engine if I did it, and have this one to keep, and pretty-much like the one I've just done, so I've got a bit of a dilemma there. My reason for doing it this way round was thought-through at the time (so I'd have one in to ride and one to build at my leisure), but it's left me unsure how best to proceed now that one's come out so well.
No hurry though; just getting my thoughts and my numbers together..........
(I've been stubbing my toe on it in my bedroom for the last six months, so at least there's progress now, and those couple of jobs tackled and sorted).

[pxguru]

What I would do is not touch the beast once it is jetted in. Keep it as your new engine and leave it all in one piece and just ride it, often and for many years, over many of your Kilometers, just fixing the things that go twang (usually the clutch and even more so now you have actual power).

I suggest Old faithful should be put in a new frame (often easy to find engineless scooters on ebay) and would be interesting for the readers to do something faster, tidy up many of your spare parts in and around your flat. Use your antique PHBH28 and a decent fat expansion. Try to spend as little as possible, have a bit of fun with it. Then once everyone sees you have a cira 25bhp DR177 for sale, you will have no trouble selling it

[djloone]

Very true Guru...cmon Sime crack on

LOON-E

[sime66]

(my broadband is having a Friday night go-slow; I’ll have to check this in the morning…………….)

….So Crack-On we did………………………..

Lets say then the challenge would be to get as much as possible out of the used DR177 on Old Faithful, but spending as little as possible; things I would need to decide whether or not outlay is needed:
1) Expansion pipe; new/second hand (plenty of time to keep an eye out) – what make? I’ll look up the ‘shootout’ to remind me; there were only a couple that beat the SR2 for a 125/150.
2) Piston; use existing or Grand Sport (=£90)
3) Will my old head be OK to use with GS piston?
4) Crank; use existing 57mm or new long crank? – alternatives to Mazz (£115) (Tameni) (Polini is £230) (Serie Pro is £170) (Pinasco is £220)
5) I’d have to repair and upgrade cush drive
6) I might need new 3rd, 4th gears; though I’ve inspected and they look OK to me.
7) A decent clutch will be a big outlay. (£200?)
8) I’d probably need new shocks on an old frame (£150?)
9) I might need the disc forks on this one, so delay doing the swap on The Beast
10) I’ve got Si24, PHBH 26 & 28 to play with; lots of bits needed too if I go with PHBH
11) Depending on whether I change the crank or not, I might need to change some bearings, but all seals too. (probably bearings actually, because I’ll be opening the inlet).
12) Flash-boy’s CDI?
That’s just half-hour thinking; I’m sure I’ve forgotten some stuff. I like the idea, but I can’t see a cheap 25PS engine that’s going to last, built from from Old Faithful with little cost; what are the items I need to spend money on, and what can I use what I have to spend as little as possible? I don’t want to build another expensive motor.

Other factors:
It is also a fact of living in Cornwall, that freighting stuff (a frame for example) is a bugger and an expense (not to mention viewing from down here); likewise selling is hindered for the same reason.
I also have some reservations that if anyone wanted a 25PS engine they’d want one based on a Dr180 or one built by me.
(Best to get these doubts out the way first, eh)

Anyway, these last few days I’ve been cleaning, measuring and rebuilding. There’s not much to say; there’s a few things I’ve decided to ignore for now because the likelihood is that this engine will now sit until I make my mind up to do something drastic with it, but in the meantime it is tip top and ready to run. Here’s a few photos and some data for ‘old Faithful’ before transition into ‘Something Faster’ (sort of in chronological order; clean, build measure, dims, calcs):

Inlet timing:













The worst of the Gears - all good:







Nice new Drain:







Stator marked and returned - marked timing on cases for strobing.





Cleaned all mating surfaces:













Port map - odd shapes due to carbon build-up in exhaust ports:

















Port heights:



Deck height:



Cleaned piston crown:









Head volume check:



Squish Check (cleaned combustion chamber):







Quick Port Timing Calculations:





Timings 'Old Faithful' before any work:



My Spreadsheet - All 'Old Faithful' Data, including last Benchmark MD and gearbox visualiser (you can see why I thrashed it all the time):



Back together - New engine mounts and drain; no drips at all after three days:



Just fiddling with moving all ports (not barrel), and opening Inlet and Crank, which was my intention before 'Something Fast' was suggested:





Shelved now, where I can’t stub me toe on it, until inspiration and inclination get the better of me. – Or until I need it if I blow The Beast up……………………

[djloone]

Love it man, when you do something..you really go for it..i take my hat off ...you really gotta source a frame and build

LOON-E

[pxguru]

Been away,back home now and a little more time.

This doesn't have to be expensive. All the standard parts can take the strain. They will be good for at least 10,000 miles if you don't do wheelies or burn outs. If you want to spend some money then maybe some better crank bearings but those you have are new so why bother. The clutch side main can come out for tuning and go back in!

1) Expansion pipe - you will need one, anything fat and long (and not made with rizla paper!)
2) Piston; use existing or Grand Sport (=£90) - Something with thinner rings for sure. What ones fit that barrel? (always good to hone after tuning anyway; hide all the marks)
3) Will my old head be OK to use with GS piston? - DR head will be fine
4) Crank; use existing 57mm or new long crank? – 57mm will be faster for this project, so good to go already
5) I’d have to repair and upgrade cush drive - BGM heavy spring one
6) I might need new 3rd, 4th gears; though I’ve inspected and they look OK to me. - gear cogs look fine, Double hard crux will be needed though and new gear selector
7) A decent clutch will be a big outlay. (£200?) - Always an issue. - A normal banded one will be ok for a while. Gearing will need to be 20/68 if you were wondering
8) I’d probably need new shocks on an old frame (£150?) - probably but who knows what you will get
9) I might need the disc forks on this one, so delay doing the swap on The Beast - try to buy a disc frame and all will be so easy
10) I’ve got Si24, PHBH 26 & 28 to play with; lots of bits needed too if I go with PHBH - going to need the PHBH. Will be able to get it right quite quickly, as they are easy to set up.
11) Depending on whether I change the crank or not, I might need to change some bearings, but all seals too. (probably bearings actually, because I’ll be opening the inlet). - new seals for sure
12) Flash-boy’s CDI? - not needed (mine blew up a few months ago and I dont miss it so much)

Might not cost so much in the end. Will be a great way to clear out your flat

[henri]

my my sime ,you have been a busy boy ,will re-read agin after work an comment if i think of anything .H

[pxguru]

This kind of thing is what I was thinking.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vespa-px-125-scooter-/291796772816?hash=item43f07167d0:g:szQAAOSwMNxXZmYk

[sime66]

Yes, I saw that yesterday.
I have the engine, headset and wheels to put it together and sit it in the road legally, but MOT runs out in a week, and I ain't starting fiddling with something new in the middle of Summer, and my Autumn projects are already planned (if there's no more surprises). Also arranging collection from Mansfield and Delivery to Cornwall; you've got to add at least a couple of hundred quid.
I've got the idea though, but far from ready for it yet.....