A quick one back, vespasco – it is forecast for a particularly wintry Winter too:
Thanks chaps, I'm pretty clear on what to do, in what order, and when now – all taken in and noted down as my instructions for next several hundred miles. I'll take it as easy as is sensible for each stage of progress, keep updating, and we'll have some numbers soon enough!
I've been messed around with orders for the stuff needed to fix stand - “wrong address” on package, apparently. Have decided instead of getting the hump, I'm going to leave trying to get jobs done during this week, I've reordered, and I'll have all the stuff here Saturday morning when weather is forecast to be good as well, and can do some more miles on Sunday morning after that. Pointless getting the hump and rushing when there's really no need. Have also given some thought to when to retorque, and decided I might as well do that after the first strobe because I might want to tweak the stator a bit then anyway, and to do that I need a decent tick-over, and to fiddle with that I need to sort my stand and these few other jobs out and get those miles done, so just walking away from it for a day or two, taking a break from it and doing other jobs, instead of listening out for deliveries..... (Ordered rims, ordered new hub; haven't ordered tyres).
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
2% at next fill (in my petrol can), I'm intending to do another 100 miles before playing with mixture screw – have got idle sorted; here's some notes I jotted down when I got back, which covers it I think – I can change if I've got stuff in wrong order.
Things I have done so far: Sorted Stand spring Sorted Idle Increased 3rd and 4th to 6,000rpm(ish) 55kph and 75kph.
Things I'm doing next: Checking plug – not chopping; just a look Going to 2% next fill for another 100 miles, then; Checking plug again – new plug without gasket and with CHT sensor ring. Sorting mixture screw and readjusting idle to suit* Strobing Retorquing Then another couple of hundred miles before plug chops, rejetting etc. MicroDyno and 0-60s.....................
Things I've noticed: Seems to like starting with throttle open Still rough and spluttery at low revs in low gears, but that's good. Pulls in 3rd really nicely on hills. Accelerates better from a cruising speed, which the old one never did; it only really accelerated well at low speed/revs. Still lots of pull when I change into 4th at about 6,000 rpm. All my old change-up points on familiar roads are late now - getting to them quicker. Although I'm running in and being careful, and using small throttle movements, it's pretty much performing in 2nd and 3rd much the same but without winding up the throttle; obviously I haven't pushed it up in 4th yet, but it's very noticeable how well it already performs compared to old engine - without thrashing it.
Edit: * I had noted that you previously mentioned being careful to get idle jet right 'cos many seizes in that range, so if you think I should attend to that as priority I'll bring that up - should I do some miles at 2%, before or after checking idle jet, and when relative to playing with mixture screw - and how am I checking idle jet? lower throttle chops? - not sure about best order and procedure for that bit.
Once its set up to run cleanly it will improve to another level!
Once running 2% for a while it is possible to start playing with the mixture screw. It might take 100 miles to get it adjusted right. To make setting up easy the idle and progression must be correct before bothering with the main jet.
You put your timing on I.T. at 18 degress right? Strobe it to check it but I would leave this where it is until the main jet is done. As its essentially a touring set up it could go to 20 degrees but see how it goes first.
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
I've set the stator off the IT mark a tad, aiming at 19º, and used my timing disk and TDC before head was on to set and mark some bold strobing check marks at 19º, so when I do my first strobe I'll know how close I am, and which side of that mark:
Forgetting the main jet for now, and given that this next period of tweaking may take a while, and that I'll do some more miles first with the only change being 2% before doing either, should I do my mixture screw alone first, before I play with my pilot/idle jet, or vice-versa, or tweak them together? My idle jet is rich I isn't it (55/160), but I have a 52/140 (and 48/160, but you chaps didn't seem interested in that one – I can get others too, but at £7odd each I'd like not get loads of wrong ones, and I think one or other of those first two will be good). I do need to get more familiar with each circuit, what throttle-range each covers, how they overlap, and which jets, and screws effect them; I can read-up on that while I'm doing my next 100 miles. I found a little graph, but I don't think it's for SI carbs; but something like this for my carb (I know vespasco did some nice clourful mark-ups too) I know that I don't know this bit well yet, but I will:
19 degrees is even better. Makes sure it strobes correct and leave it there. Be sure to know what detonation sounds like, just in case you are ever running too weak. The way I see it is the more retarded the timing is, the worse the mid range gets.
That working range diagram for the jets is similar for an SI. It has the same idea just different devices. Setting up carbs confuses the hell out of most people, tweeking sometimes gets done before the important stuff. It can take months to get the fine tuning completely done. And don't get me started on the weather effects! Doing things well and in the right order is the key to getting it done quickly.
The sequence for getting your SI basically set up is quite straightforward. If we make 2 assumptions then it will be really easy (Adjust it to whatever slide you have already and keep the BE3). These can be tweeks for later, if needed at all.
1. Get it running acceptably on some jetting that you guessed or copied. done, tick! 2. Adjust the mixture screw for ideal running. 3. Fit a pilot jet with the small number so the mixture screw ends up 1.5 (or so) turns out. 4. Adjust the progression with the big number on the pilot jet (while keeping the now set small number the same(ish)) 5. Adjust the MJ by feel 6. Adjust MJ by plug chops 7. Ride as fast as you like
Isn't it amazing when you think about this engine and the old one. Both DR180, 57mm crank, SIP road, SI carb. The only difference is some porting
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
Thanks for the SI set-up crib sheet for the next bit; it's just what I need, a list to follow. 19º it is then; glad about that, and don't intend to tweak it unless necessary or advised to, I know it's only a guide position, but I wanted to see how close to it I am for starters. With all of this setting-up now, the last 5% is not something I really want to struggle to achieve, nor do I want to be having my jetting too close to the edge; there's a point before that where Ill be very happy with what's been achieved without feeling I'm close to blowing-up. Having confidence that I'm going to get where I'm going will always be top of my list of priorities. Having said that – Yes, and Wow; it is quite an eye opener what a few well-aimed tweaks can do to a shabby-old kit, even at this early stage of setting-up. Had a quick 50km ride this morning on 2%; all's well – I've filled the tank again and next I'll go on to adjusting the mixture screw. I won't do much riding now until the weekend, and I have a small list of tweaks to do too, but I'm feeling pretty content, and confident I'm not going to blow it up unless I do something stupid.
To get an idea of where the MJ stack kicks in, try taking it out completely when idling. It still idles! (Dont, ffs, drop the MJ down the carb)!!!!
To give me a good idea about the idle settings and jettings being correct, i blip the throttle and expect the revs to drop back down asap, without any hesitation literally, within 2 - 3 seconds. Do this with a warm engne!
When riding and run in some more, you will really feel that MJ working and will probably be amazed!!
Keep an eye on your temps. Obviously temps will rise the more throttle you give it so you will have a new benchmark as you get faster.
I look forward to hearing about your 4th gear riding and how well it pulls.
I had a last little ride out on mine yesterday, before i go away for 5 months (holidays, not the slammer). Im gonna miss the Vespa. Ill be checking your progress when i can and no doubt ill be looking for ways to keep mine in front of yours!!!! It sounds prett darn good sime. Keep it up
Hope you have a fantastic adventure, vespasco. Keep in touch with us when you can. Back for the Spring; I'll be ready for ya!! (Should be tweaked by then).
Sime, you can keep the mixture screw cautious by finding out where the correct setting is, then taking it out another 0.25 turn. First job is to get it right.
Have a great trip Vespasco!
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
You must have read my mind; I was just pondering whether to go in by degrees or to set it up properly now, so I'll do that – get it right and back-of a tad; thanks.
….been clearing the decks to get lots done on scoot this weekend (tweaks and miles), woken by it blowing a gale and hosing it down, and the radar is 'orrible:
Not sure what the plans are, but I ain't playing around outside in that! I'll think of something; maybe start looking at the old engine...........................?
I haven't done much this morning because of the weather, so still on 200-odd miles; hope to do some decent riding tomorrow....... I did adjust my mixture and idle, and will tweak that again and maybe strobe tomorrow – after a ride; and I also had my first look at the plug. It looks plenty-rich; (safe: 3% & open mix screw for this plug below – and now wound in and down to 2%, so should see a difference next time), and it looks like it's become a bit loose too, which might account for some of the rough running and idling. I've put the CHT sensor under the plug and tightened it right down now, and I'll have the cowling off again to strobe, so will check it's good and tight again then. This isn't any sort of plug chop; just the plug after first 200 miles:
looks promising that plug , alls going to plan so far ,chuffed for ya ,well except for stand spring . good tho , as when its all working out 100% thats when i panic ,paranoid? me? ,not when i KNOW gods out to get me.an whats this worry about the weather ,youve waterproofs n ya skins waterproof .pouring downs perfect for running in ,lots of short low speed hops from shelter to shelter/warm up spots . an if it is going to break its traditional that its raining ,just dont go out at night ,wet n dark will be tempting fate a tad too far i reckon . that n god wont see its you n not me ,an he's a real grudge bearing spiteful git were i'm concerned , i only farted in church once but will he forgive ,H
if its got wheels n makes a noise I wanna play with it, skateboards included coz "skate-punks rule",
Thanks, H; so far so good is good enough for me. The plug was what I'd hoped/expected to see, apart from the muck up the threads; I suppose I didn't notice that because it was running deliberately rich. I don't mind riding in the wet at all, but it was very windy too, and getting soaked twice by going out in the hosing-down to do the tweaks before the ride was what put me off this morning – but I got my tweaks done this afternoon, so I'm ready for a good blast tomorrow – whatever the weather. If the Big Fella's still picking on you, maybe he'll leave me alone to get on with this without too much agro! I'm sure he'll get round to leaving me in the middle of nowhere sometime soon enough. Plan of action: 1. Another big, long blast, keeping an eye on temps now that I'm on 2% and I've wound in the mixture screw; I might up the revs/speed a bit too – the odd little tester. 2. Redo mix and idle after long run, at present it's (spaco; fine-thread) mix is 2¾ out and idle is 2 out. 3. Strobe to see if I'm near the 19º, maybe adjust stator while I'm retorquing if necessary, 4. Retorque and tighten everything – judging by the plug threads I reckon it needs it. 5. At 300 miles, hopefully with temps, mix and idle all good, start playing with the idle jet, if necessary, noting previous advice: - small number to get mixture correct if I can't get it with the 55/160, then big number to get the progression right (not sure if that means pulling smoothly at low revs, or checking it isn't too lean there, or a bit of both; still need to read-up on that bit but couldn't be arsed today). Anyway, next job is to have a bit of a blast, see if it likes my teaks and wants some more. Still going to plan..............
Too wet and windy to see or hear much enginny-goings-on really, (and what is wrong with Sunday morning ƒʊͼʞwits who can't see a bright orange blob coming at them!!) but I had a good rapid (defensive-riding) ride anyway, and my Mellow is returning to normal now I'm home, so: New tweaks meant experimenting with kicking (throttle/choke) a bit this morning, but started on 3rd/4th kick, big white cloud, which cleared quickly – the opened-up exhaust is like a leaf blower! Still spluttery at low revs and low gears when cold, put choke right in and just kept revs up – I'm sure a lot of this is just me being not very proficient (or patient) at tweaking carb; I'll get it. Top speed GPS Speedo 80kph (5,500), GPS tracker 73kph (going to ignore tracker max in future). Mid 60s in 3rd (6,000) but there's much more there – in 3rd anyway...... In truth, that's about all the speed I wanted to do in these conditions this morning anyway, especially with drivers, with last nights booze still in their veins, jumping out at me – need that on wet roads; cheers. Max temp 147ºC (sensor under plug) on a long straight, maxing at 80kph (GPS Speedo) – repeated several times with same result. Will do a bit of dual carriageway sometime soon; get a bit more of an idea what 4th is like. Normal running around town temp mid-90ºCs, low 100ºCs. Idling temp – don't know; still fiddling with getting it to idle on its own – I'd say it's about 70ºCish though. Seems much more power accelerating in 3rd than there is in 4th but I haven't opened it right up in 4th and I expect that will improve with mj tweaks anyway, when we get to them – running-in without mishap is more important for now. Had one odd incident, turning left at lights, staying in 2nd to accelerate up a hill, gears slipped, couldn't find any gear, it revved up and down a fair bit (on it's own?) and when I found 2nd it was sluggish until it picked up. Not just a gear slip or a false neutral, which can instantly be corrected; it seemed more definite and prolonged than that. Rode round again and couldn't repeat it. Might just be that everything is due for a tightening-up, which is my next job – after strobing, which I'll now do during the week. Might also be clutch slipped, could also be crux loose on rod, but it was threadlocked, so doubt it – not going to worry unless it does it again anyway; just a one-off oddity for now. I had no other trouble with clutch or gears, or anything really, and the engine temps are well-safe for now, so a good run, and a clear set of objectives next time I go out to play..................
Going to try to record weather conditions with my ride results for reference later: Precip: Low cloud, heavy drizzle blowing in off moors Pressure: 1025mb Temp: 14ºC Wind: SW - gusts, 16-27 knots
Might sound a daft Q Sime (remember im out of the scooter loop for a lot of yrs) but how are you getting your running temps?..im used to riding my gsxr..temp gauge on my dash..mid 70s running about...90/100ish in town..105 and my fan kicks in, would be very handy having temp displayed for those "She canny take nae more" moments
That revving on its own sounds odd. What number plug you running? This happens when overheating or air leak. Concerning.
Need to get the pilot jet adjusted correctly could just be that. The richest pilot is the 55/100. It might be running too weak at low throttle. Have you got a 55/100? Dial in the mixture screw and you can see whether a 55 is too big. I would think its about ok though. Set the tickover as low as possible and wind the mixture screw in until the revs pick up. Should be at near 2 turns out at that point, on a fine thread carb and with the correct pilot (55 number). If you end up at 1 turn or less the 55 is too big. The progression is where the pilot jet is maxed out and the main jet stack begins to feed in more and take over. This starts to happen when the throttle is over 1mm open. The bigger the big number (160) the more air gets in and the weaker it runs at low throttle.
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
Pxguru: I think I made it sound worse than it was, especially as it didn't do it again, even when I tried to make it do it. I am not sure it was revving on its own – I was practically coming to a halt, trying not to stall – so keeping revs up, and trying to find a gear – on a hill, I could well have thought I'd found a gear, revved it and found I still wasn't in gear, then done it again once or twice whilst slowing to near-standing, which would also explain why when I got a gear it was slow to pick up. It's a particularly nasty little corner; the lights are downhill and I turn left, there's those horrible old-fashioned (and wet today) metal studs in the road across the junction that I have to cross carefully whilst turning, and then it's straight uphill with oncoming traffic because of parked cars on other side of the road. My plug is a B7HS, It isn't overheating at any speed/revs, it may be an airleak (see threads on plug previously as a possibility), but it was a one-off and I'm now going to have a proper play with carb and a retorquing of everything before I do any more running-in riding (other than warming it up to tweak). Other than that one-off everything is fine, and I'm not even sure I should have mentioned it as I couldn't repeat it. This weekend I rushed the tweaking a bit yesterday afternoon when it dried up a bit, so I could get out and do some miles this morning. I think miles aren't as important as setting the carb up better at this stage, so I'll make time to get it right before anything else. I do think this idle/mix/pilot thing is just me not being very good at doing it, and you've explained it a couple of times, so instead of nicking time to do it, I'll wait until I've got time to do it properly and conditions are more helpful. I bet one of you chaps could have it purring in no time, but I'll suss it and learn from it. I can't just pop outside and play with the scooter with the engine running here; I have to take it round the lane to do it so as not to brown the neighbours off; it's not ideal, in fact none of this weekend's tweaking or riding conditions were ideal at all – wet and windy, spray, mizzle, poor visibility, slippy wet roads, sleepy drivers; but it's done now and it got me out for a good ride, and back again; it still runs nice after the tweaks, and the temps are sensible.
Loon-e: I put a CHT sensor ring under plug, cable through body, up behind horncast and into headset (not necessary, but tidy), and a little CHT gauge above speedo; see first page of this thread for my option and fitting; there are other options (SIP Speedo/Koso gauge etc.– the rich-kids have SIP speedos, but I think the PX one looks 'orrible), more detailed discussions here:
But I got it from UK seller with 72” extension lead thrown-in, but they're not listing any more; it was £40 for sensor, gauge and 72” lead. The one I have has a sturdier sensor ring than SIP/Koso, but what seems pretty fragile wiring, which I sleved; I'm not yet sure if it was a good option or not, depends how long it lasts. In fact I wasn't really yet convinced by any of them lasting long, as you'll see in the discussions and pros/cons of each, but I wanted to make a decision and have something working before running-in this engine.
A good idea of sensible/safe temps can be found in the discussion here:
Had it wide open in third yet? I wouldn't be able to resist
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
Just having my coffee and then going out for a play........... The thought of doing a bit of a blast has crossed my mind, but I'm going to do my tweaks first. Main bug-bear at the moment is getting it to idle, this morning is the first chance I've had to spend some time on it. Will report later...............
Right then chaps, instead of riding round I did a bit of tweaking and strobing this morning, and it's all pretty good.......
Everything took a turn or two to tighten, so that was a job probably a bit overdue, and might-well have helped the mix/idle tweaks I did this morning too, and when I come to the question later about timing, bear in mind that flywheel is coming off anyway** to tighten the rest of casing bolts, so a tweak of stator is no problem. I've got my idle and return to idle nice now; this will also make riding easier too, so hopefully we're on the way to getting this carb job done now. My mixture screw is at 2 turns out, and my idle was at 2 and had another slight tweak in a bit more when warmed-up, so about 1¾ – that's as best I've been able to keep track of recent adjustments; if I need to be more precise I'll have to start again, but that's where I'm at, and this is my idle – rev – return to idle, which seems good to me:
(I did have it idling slower, but it eventually cut out, so I wound it in a tiny-tad more; maybe I should have wound the mix in slightly instead to pick the revs up? - it's close anyway).
So from there I went on to checking my timing, which was initially just set on stator using just cast-in timing marks, but marked accurately at T.D.C. and 19º, so that I could check properly with strobe when I got to this stage. Bear in mind that 19º was the target, but that it is a guide figure – a start point. If I've got my plusses and minusses right in my head, this is showing slightly off 19º, slightly further from T.D.C., so slightly advanced of target (between 19-20º). I can adjust this now to get it right to my mark (the flywheel is coming off anyway**), so doing so is no problem, but the 19º is not a real number, just a guide, and I read back to see you'd said up to 20º was OK for tourer. - I'll take your advice on whether to do that now or as part of fine-tuning (maybe I'll do it just for the practice of adjusting and getting the direction right more clearly in my head or maybe I'll leave well alone!)..................
Here's a film and a screenshot, trying to show it accurately – bear in mind there is a slight parallax error because of angle of filming, so gap might look greater than it actually is – I tried various angles and this is the best bit of film I got of it:
Your idle-rev-back to idle sounds ok to me. As for progression /160 idle... Id go by how smooth it feels damn...im.on my phone and cant see your queries now.... But as for giving it the big 'un in 4th (or 3rd come to that), keep the mj large, over large, and work your way down. Youll likely find youll have to readjust a little on the idle but sounds like youre close enough to only have to tweak the carb just a little. Timing.. Id leave alone until the carbs tweaked and if you feel it needs more then advance a little but again id say youre close enough to leave it alone.
All sounds very promising. I bet theres a nig grin on your face when you open it up ?
I haven't given it any WOT yet – not felt the stop at full-throttle; maybe close in 3rd - not sure, but marked it now to give me a better idea of where I am; haven't wanted to in 4th, and in 3rd it doesn't scream at me to change up, I'm past 80kph (7,000+) – where I used to change up on Old-Faithful when I was giving it loads - and changing up on this one because I should, rather than needing to. I'll maybe leave it longer in 3rd to see where it goes to, but in 4th I'd say I'm aware it needs less m.j. to get much more out of it – that may be nonsense, but it's how it feels to me. (I keep thinking what pxguru said earlier about the big mj limiting my revs to keep safe to start with). I think I'll do a bit of dual carriageway, leaving it in 3rd long-time and see what the temp does, then maybe do the same run in 4th to see where it revs to, without going silly. I don't need to be impatient now, and I love it, but want to convince myself that it's going to go in 4th too, sometime soon............................ If I'm alright on the dual carriageway, (I can go faster there without worrying about people pulling out on me) maybe I can do a provisional M.D. and 0-60s as a benchmark for carb tweaks......... There's no more queries really, once one of you clever chaps has given an opinion (without warnings or concerns) I'm happy, so if you like my idling-rev-idling, and my timing as they are, I'm pretty content with things. Still going to take the flywheel off to tighten rest of casings bolts – even though I just built it I hadn't realised how few of them I can get at with it on. Then it's back to riding-about-a-bit, I think the miles will do themselves now (when time permits), so a bit of experimenting with jetting.........
Runs really well and sounds fine. If thats as slow as the tickover goes then its still running too rich. Wind the mixture screw in until the revs pick up. Then turn the tickover down. If you give it a sudden 1/4 throttle from tickover it should just rev up and not cut out or dip or feel 'fluffy'. If it does you have gone too far. If thats 2 turns out you might need a 52 pilot. Timing is perfect. I would put it back there after the re-torquing is done. If the timing is ever a delicate issue on a scooter then the problem is usually elswhere. Normally the head profile or a badly set up carb, retading the timing just hides any other issues. Once you are really happy with the tickover/starting ho and cold/slow moving pull in gear, then its time to sort the MJ
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
Great; that makes me happy. There's definitely another tweak I can do with the mix in a bit, and then the idle out a bit – try to get it a bit slower. I did have it slower, and it idled for ages, and only cut out whilst I was fiddling getting the strobe connected up; I can get it slower – after it cut out it was quicker and easier to do the idle by hand to do the strobing, than fiddle with a screwdriver on the mix screw this morning, but as I said above I thought I should have done it the other way round to be right. It started 2nd kick cold and straight-away hot, so that isn't going to be a problem. (tick-over without cowl is 75ºC-ish) When cold it was a bit lumpy to start with, but that might just have been because the need for choke was changed by tweaks – I think I put choke in too early this morning. When warm, slow manouevering was excellent, and it picks up smoothly too – a better, longer ride with my U-turn and roundabout will establish if this is consistently better now; I was only up and down the lane today to get it warm. - That's fine-tweaks anyway, and if it takes a bit of fiddling, the practice will do me good. I'm very pleased to have good feedback on this bit; thanks both for taking the time. So, I'll give idle/mix another tweak then; maybe play with that jet if I need to, then go on to some playing in 3rd and 4th with a view to seeing what needs doing with mj. A good end to the weekend's tweaks; cheers Chaps!