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Post by sime66 on Mar 14, 2016 11:50:34 GMT
Weather conditions:Precip: Cloud (0%), Sunny Pressure: 1032mb Temp: 2ºC Wind: ENE – 10-20 knots I didn't have much spare time this morning, but I did slip in two quick runs and a tweak; no GPS; just getting a feel and looking at temps really. The first run just to get up to temp before adjusting mix and idle, and that was still pretty hot, and probably quicker. After stopping to set it up better I did another run, and it might still end up hot with a long 4th WOT (but hopefully the bigger MJ will take over more – in any case I'm aware of progression-range seizes and will keep an eye on these lower speed temps too); I'll check all that through the week, but my between-villages blast got to 125ºC, which is perfect (I got 124ºC there when I had my best #1 MD results, and 133ºC there the other day when I got the 160ºC WOT with the #3 and 'dangerous' plug, so 125ºC there is perfick). My progression temp is up to ±105 too, so I reckon my Pilot is right, subject to a better tweak of screws when I have more time, and keeping an eye on it. It still feels great; the 3rd gear that just keeps on giving.......... I hope the temps prove to be OK through the week because I'd imagine the next tweak would be to go back to BE3 or BE3+1, which I don't want to do because, in my simplified understanding of it, I see my nice new bump on the curves as being from those BE tweaks, and I like that bump there! Anyway I intend to ride it like this during the week, and if there's no tweaking needed and temps stay sensible, I'll do some MDs on the weekend. Here's this morning's plug – back into safety, (probably; subject to a long 4th WOT), and no noticeable drop in 'feel': Polini vortex, RamAir filter + elastoplast, 45/160, 140MJ, BE3+2, 170AC
Colour better, might be a bit oily because I went round the lane to check the Idle and warm starting again after the ride; a fair bit of fiddling around. It will also probably look a bit leaner after a long 4th WOT, so it's pretty good for now. - I need some long runs and big hills................
Regarding your note earlier this morning about 'tuning to order'; this has all been a real eye-opener and an education for me – not only with the original design of each aspect of the engine, specific to what I wanted from it, and all that measuring and cutting, but these rev-range/power/torque-specific tweaks we've been doing rercently, and the whole carb setting-up and modifying process. I've got a splendid engine, and a vastly improved understanding of it all – thank you again; it's been a really worthwhile exercise.
(and I've still got all my fingers).
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Post by pxguru on Mar 16, 2016 4:21:51 GMT
If the WOT temperature is under control on this jetting then that is it until the Spring. Needs to settle down and you need to get a feel for it. Happy to help with tuning any time. Surprisingly easy to get through this but that's down to you mostly. And the end result has worked out great. Once it has 10,000 more miles on it will have really proved itself. From a experimental point of view you have two near identical engines now. One a DR180 bolted together out of the boxes and set up like everyone else does and the other DR180 engine exactly the same but assembled a scientific way, making porting adjustments for how you want to ride it. And look what the power and torque difference is! All that for free
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Post by sime66 on Mar 22, 2016 17:50:53 GMT
^^ I liked leaving that as the last word ^^ But just an update to say that all's well; she's strong and lively, and cool enough - - - and I'm looking forward to Easter!! Plug after a fast blast round the hills and lanes on Sunday, max 126ºC between villages, not motorway (didn't change anything afterwards; still happy just as it is):
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Post by sime66 on Mar 25, 2016 12:53:28 GMT
This took half hour to film, and then all morning to convert, split, compress and upload, so I'm going to post it on the 'Nice Out' 'Playtime' and the 'Brief Build' threads. It's a new bullet helmet camera; I had the previous model, but this one's HD, although 30 mins of film was 6GB, so there's not much you can do with it until it's been converted to MPG or MP4, then split-up, so might as well have stuck to SD. It has a 32GB MicroSD card, which is good for 6½ hours, the battery lasts 3½ hours, but I can charge it from my scooter power outlet on my toolbox (or the one inside for secure charging). Also, because of very bright, low light, I had to have the camera pointed lower in the sky than I'd have liked; a but too much road and too little horizon and scenery on this recording really. As far as riding is concerned; these are my usual little, local test runs – some lanes and hills, which the camera doesn't really show too well. It was a bright, clear morning, but the roads were still wet from last night, so I had to tone-down a couple of the corners a tad. I think I am possibly just a little too hot, (125ºC between villages and 136ºC one junction on dual carriageway – not WOT), but I'm keeping an eye on it with some longer runs planned over the weekend, though this morning was forecast to be the best weather. I've also got a new bit of a front-end vibration, which seems to be since I changed the front and spare wheels over, so I've got my eye on that too. I might also have lost a bit of top speed in 4th since the last jetting change too, so it all might just need a tweak sometime, but I'm happy with it and just keeping an eye and getting a feel as it is.
Anyway, here's links to two films – a half-hour ride, split in half to stay within Youtube's 15 minute limit, and converted to MPG, then cropped, then split, and saved as only 720x576 mpg to get the file size down – still took all morning to upload though, and the microphone picks up the sound of the wind, not the engine, which is a shame. To do it better I'd have to use some foam, or make a shield, or use my phone to record a WAV sound file and overlay it onto the MPG with the MPG sound stripped-out, but for this little test it just ain't worth the palaver. It's Nice out, it's Playtime, and the Build is done - Here's Youtube links:
….Just checked them on Youtube; quality is pretty shabby compared to watching the original 1280X720 AVI files on my big telly, so need to have a think about how better to edit and upload; I'll post them as they are for now, but shorter, higher quality films needed, but that's more messing about than I've got time for today – I've got all Summer to suss it out, today I want to be back out riding!.....
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Post by pxguru on Mar 26, 2016 6:54:28 GMT
Looks lovely round there. Reminds me of being of holidays past. Scooter rides well, seems like little effort for it, which was the intention. is the mobile phone on MPH? Would be nice to see a short one where it goes through the gears to WOT in 4th and with the engine sound.
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Post by sime66 on Mar 26, 2016 9:23:10 GMT
(I'm just waffling whilst uploading....)
I've got a digital voice recorder (Dictaphone), which I'll try to use to get the engine sound and overlay it on the film, so I can keep the phone for the speedo. I hadn't really intended to record my speeds and temps on the film, just a bit of a ride in the sunshine, it was the low sun that made me point the camera down lower otherwise it's just glare, but now I know it can see them, I'll do some filming just for that. On the original HD AVI files you can clearly see the temp gauge too, but once it's been clipped and compressed, a lot of the detail is lost. I can perfect the method and get some better film of a more engine-specific nature (speed/temp/gear changes, etc.), this run was mainly to check the camera and memory card combination worked (there was some doubt that a 32Gb card would work), to compare this HD with the old SD one I had (which is superb on my big HD telly, but is lost on Youtube), and also to show you chaps why I wanted my low-end grunt, rather than a racer; those narrow, windy, hilly lanes (especially when wet and muddy) do not lend themselves to haring around really – you never know when there's a tractor or a sheep round the next bend. My riding is dictated by the road not the engine now, there's no engine struggling and just throttle-tickling and little WOT – none on that little ride; there's a couple of steep little hills in that film that you don't even notice – it's perfect. To explain it better; on old faithful I was WOT everywhere – right round to the stop on the bars, and really revving in all gears, but this is completely different; just little touches and plenty in reserve – on the sort of roads I'm on most of the time. I do still have an eye on the temps, a suspicion that the 140MJ has lost my top-end a bit, and a bit of front-end vibration to investigate, but that's all. It's very wet here today, I'm going to the seaside on Monday, and I have to cross the Moors on Thursday (both scenic filming), but after that I'll do some engine-biased films..................
Below is a link to just 60 seconds of film, for two reasons: 1) This hill at the back of my flat is about 16%, and from almost a standing start; it's got a couple of bends that stop me flying up it in 3rd, and 2nd is too easy now, so I'm throttling back to take the corners, trying 3rd, and then dropping into 2nd for the next bend – this hill was a real struggle for Old Faithful; it's not a long hill, but it's steep and you can't see what's coming downhill at you, so there's no chance to wind it up like on a long straight hill, and the new engine doesn't even notice it from a pulling point of view, but it gets quite hot. - You might be able to see that the temp goes to 125ºC (from 89ºC at the bottom) – I then went slow along the lane after it to see how quickly the temp dropped back down; I've got my eye on the temp build-up. 2) I've tried to clip and upload part of the original HD AVI; it has come out perfect on my computer, Youtube reckons about 30 mins to upload (60 seconds of HD!), so we'll see how the quality looks – it's yesterday's film, so there's nothing I can do about the sound for this one; if this comes out better I'll upload HD film over night in future....
(...just checked it; it's still much fuzzier than the original, but you can read the temp gauge – I'll see if uploading to FLIKR gives better results, but that's enough messing about for this morning).
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Post by sime66 on Mar 27, 2016 9:43:53 GMT
Poxy weather forecast for today and tomorrow, so my wake-up pondering has turned to fine-tweaking my jetting again......... Last night I watched back through my films to see where the 136ºC max occurred, because when I did that hill climb film crop I noticed it had already registered and that was before the dual carriageway, and it was quite a gentle ride really; it was only the 90kph between the villages, where it should be 125ºCish, so I am too hot. I also thought that short sharp hill going from 90ºC to 125ºC was a bit of a rapid temp rise, so I reckon need to tone it down a bit. It seems that to get the low-end acceleration and climbing torque I want, I lose some top-end and get too high temps as well. I've been suspecting this for a while, and I've been thinking about the options – I suspect redoing the Pilot properly and proper progression plug chops to get that right first is the sensible answer, however, here's my list if there's maybe a sensible tweak first: 1. Richer Pilot – progression temps and plug chops again. 2. Going back to BE3, or making another BE3+1 (the previous one became the BE3+2) 3. Changing the AC back to 160 4. Using a narrower air filter on the carb box; I have the Polini one, and some K&M replicas, which I bought when the RamAir one split – I have the repaired RamAir at the moment. (this won't help top-end). 5. Some of the above, and going back to a 138MJ (or a different 140; I have several brands but using the BGM one at the moment). 6. Opening a 140 up slightly – 141? (I'm going to check, but I think I have 3 or 4 140s now – BGM, Beedspeed unbranded, Polini kit unbranded, and maybe an INC) 7. Going to 142, just for a long run to see if I can live with it 'safe'. Of those, I'm favouring leaving it alone, or playing with BE3 or +1 and 141(ish) to start with; just a fine tweak? I wanted the leaner Pilot to get the progression temps up, and to help with the low-end slow pick-up, but I seem to have leaned-out it all, and compensated with a bigger Main, which has affected my top-end; it all seems to have gone slightly off-script a bit – only a bit, it is good and close, but I suspect it needs a careful fine tweak. It's really great for my little local jaunts, but I'm pretty sure a WOT on the dual carriageway would be slow and hot now, and I wonder what my long, hilly run next week with a back pack will show if I don't pre-empt a hot run by giving the jetting a tweak. I think I'm slightly on the lean side of safe for a proper blast, which is easy enough to sort, but how best - and keep the low-end, but get the top-end and the temps back? This is my plug from that fairly mild half-hour run in the films, which maxed at 136ºC:
That's better than I thought it would be, actually; maybe I'll just leave it alone, and keep the option jets handy on a long run, but I'm pretty sure I'll be too hot, although the plug doesn't say that really; I need WOT temps and plug to decide........
This is the final jetting choices, narrowed down and simplified, with current option in red: Pilot: 45/160 – 48/160 Main: 138 – 140 - 142 Atom: BE3 – BE3+1 – BE3+2 A.C.: 160 – 170 Air: Ø58 RamAir – Ø34 Polini(foam) – Ø36 K&N(mesh)
Next job; seeing how many different 140s I have, and making sure my little box of spare jets has the ones I need for a decent ride; I want dry roads to do a fast run, but wet and windy is forecast – maybe I'll do some early dual carriageway in the morning if it isn't too windy.
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Post by pxguru on Mar 27, 2016 10:24:05 GMT
Before the fiddling commences, what is the approx rpm and throttle position of the high temp? And everything is fine apart from this temperature issue?
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Post by sime66 on Mar 27, 2016 10:34:45 GMT
I'm still pondering this after posting, and thinking along the same lines; maybe a mid-high, but not WOT issue – I'll be back with some numbers shortly..............
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Post by sime66 on Mar 27, 2016 10:51:54 GMT
This is a bit of road where I know my engine pretty well, so with a bit of thought, I can probably pin it down: On a dry road I can go faster round that bend beforehand, and get a longer, faster 3rd WOT, before a bit of 4th, before I have to slow for the village. On Friday the roads were wet, so I had to take the bend a little throttled-back, so my 3rd was slower, and my max in 4th only got to 90kph before I had to slow for the village, so say 80-85 in 3rd, and 85-90 in 4th - not WOT in either, certainly not in 4th gear that time on that bit of road:
...so it was probably when I was trying to get up to a decent speed in 3rd to make up for the slowish wet bend beforehand, so I could get a decent bit of 4th before the village; so around 7,500rpm in 3rd is when I'd say I got 136ºC, when I'd expect to have seen 125ºC – I might be able to check that from the film later, but that's my best quick answer. Yes everything else - to do with engine - is fine; I have this increased front-end vibration, which I'm thinking about/monitoring, which is since I put a brand new tyre on the front (so hopefully it's that), and also since I restocked the toolbox. I had it at high speed on the dual carriageway before, but now it seems to be at around 75-80kph. I checked my hub and wheel this morning when I pulled the plug out. I'm hoping it'll go away, I know worst scenario is engine mounts, but I want to get through the season before I tackle that, so hope it isn't.
Edit: I'm just uploading the clipped film to Youtube (about half-hour to load), but I've had a quick look and I saw 130ºC at 85kph – the 136ºC is after I've slowed down. I'll post the link to the film below when it's loaded.
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Post by pxguru on Mar 27, 2016 11:35:27 GMT
I would try just a 142 MJ on its own and see what happens. Might lose slight performance but if the WOT temperature isn't under control then the performance wasn't yours to have
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Post by sime66 on Mar 27, 2016 11:55:54 GMT
I'll do that then; go a bit safer and see, thanks. At the moment, I'd rather keep the low-end acceleration and climbing torque and lose a bit of WOT speed if that's the compromise – those dual carriageway 115-120kph WOTs were just to see where it would go, not pleasure for me or how I really want to ride it. I'll see how it all feels with a 142, and read back to see if we've been there before....... It's a bit late now, but the clipped film is loaded, so here it is anyway:
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Post by sime66 on Mar 27, 2016 15:38:47 GMT
Just out of curiosity, I dug the 140s out; a BGM, an INC and the one that came with the Polini vortex. It's clear that the BGM one, which I swapped when I upjetted from the INC 138, is smaller than the INC 140 would have been if I'd used it: Variation in 140 Main Jets: (the black line is the same length on all three)
That leads to the question; was going to a BGM 140 from the INC 138 the upjet it should have been? (to compensate for the 170AC and BE3+2 changes)..........
(the black line is the same length on both)
….answer is – NO, THEY'RE THE BLEEDIN' SAME!! So when I thought I'd upjetted for the Atomiser and Air Corrector changes, I hadn't.
Conclusions: 1. This reinforces – again – that it's dodgy to switch between brands when tweaking jetting (unfortunately I'm right on the cusp of the INC/BGM sets I have). 2. Although I've put the 142 in now, and will have a ride like that, probably in the morning; I've actually got the INC 140, which is bigger than the BGM 140, which gave me the high temps, so I might still be OK with a 140. - and it looks like that Polini one was a guess on their part, so that can be butchered for a 141 if I decide to. 3. Our jetting thinking was good, (BGM) jet inaccuracy let us down, and the temp gauge picked up the problem quickly; this little bit of gadgetry is proving to be very worthwhile.
Back to the plot then; the numbers don't matter so much, but having a decent explanation for why is better.
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Post by pxguru on Mar 28, 2016 7:37:23 GMT
I have mixed jets in my collection too, now I have all the new ones (BGM). If relying onm the numbers it is important to keep the same make but we have to work with what we have. Is the 142 MJ now fitted another BGM one? If so, should be fine now. Check temps across the whole range. really close now.
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Post by sime66 on Mar 28, 2016 10:18:19 GMT
I was out while you were posting, but I think I've answered yours now, albeit a bit waffly: It is close, so I don't want it to sound like a big problem; although I still think it's maybe slightly high, it isn't out of control. This is with a BGM 142. (above 140 I'm using BGM, below and including140 I'm using INC). There is a noticeable*, but possibly not sufficient, drop in temps approaching WOT now, all other temps are fine. I wouldn't say I noticed the jetting change for climbing and accelerating, so that's good, but possibly I did at WOT; hard to say because of the wind – and this vibration, which is beginning to bother me – I might try with previous new front wheel and/or empty toolbox to find the cause; it hasn't been this significant, except at high speed before; something is different. I did the same run, but gave it a bit more of a thrashing this morning to try get a high temp, still limited by wet roads (and a lot of overnight storm debris and surface water this morning) though; I also still got 135ºC on that same bit of road, but there was a strong headwind* there today, which actually meant my speed there was lower before my slowing point for the village – I changed up at 82kph, but went no faster in 4th. I got 117ºC max at 97kph going in the other direction, which is good – no dual carriageway today; too windy to go too fast. I think the headwind was significant* because my hill climb, out of the wind, was also 5ºC lower at 119ºC (from 83ºC at the bottom), which is an improvement and probably OK. Having said that, it is maybe still too high near WOT, and whilst I can increase the Main again, I do suspect that one of the other options lower down might be the answer. Dry roads, not blowing a gale, and no vibration would help me to decide - it's been a wet and windy Bank Holday. When I say controllable, after a fast bit with hills or wind, I can ease-up and let the temp drop quickly, so I can govern the temp, which is my concern for a long, hilly run like on Thursday – a lot of uphill into the wind would probably still be high. That might all sound a bit generalised; I'll be able to be more specific once I've had a better look at the film, speeds and temps; I do know my top speed was higher, and my top temp was lower, so it's progress, but I feel it may need something else other than upping the Main again – this arose when I went to a leaner Pilot to get my Progression temp up, drilled another hole in the BE3 to get my acceleration back, and went to 170 AC, so the BE3+2 would give results; somewhere there, I think I've gone slightly too lean, but only really seeing it near WOT, but I think the bigger Main is affecting my WOT performance now too – if that even makes sense. The bugger of it is that I love the feel of it where I want it, so don't want to change it, and certainly not much. I might just wait until I see what the weather is doing, and tone it down a bit if it's going to be windy on Thursday; not much tweaking time available before then.
Edit. I meant to mention, that a BGM 142 is probably no bigger than an INC 140, but haven't checked that 'cos jet and plug are still in the scooter; will look at both tomorrow.
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Post by sime66 on Mar 31, 2016 20:39:47 GMT
Only a quick update; this last little bit of jetting is going to be sorted by trial and error, and a few long runs under different conditions. It was a cold start this morning (2ºC and frosty - I set off in the dark, thanks to the clocks going forward) but with a light tail wind and moderate speeds with a lot of climbing, my top temp was 117ºC, so I was happy. The return journey, with the same total climbing, but a moderate headwind, got to 135ºC; too hot for what I was doing really. I have no record of speed today; just sensible for the lanes - I didn't bother using the GPS speedo, this was a nice ride not a speed test, and I've broken my bleedin' speedo again, which I'll investigate on the weekend – again! A look at the plug on my return showed it to be too lean; certainly considering this was moderate speed only; long, windy, hilly lanes with no WOT and an ambient of 6ºC on the return run. As a result of that I've gone to a 145MJ, but I'm not convinced it's the MJ, and I think that the eventual optimum carburation may lie in redoing it with going back to a richer Pilot first, or going to a BE3 or +1, or going to a 160AC – I'm just going to fiddle and test the options whilst riding now, and err on the side of caution as I tweak until I get it the best I can. If this 145MJ gives me too much of a top-end loss, which I think it will, I'll have to think again. Getting a decent temp and performance over full rev-range and keeping the top-end performance without getting too hot, is proving a little illusive, but if I stay careful, I don't mind fiddling, testing and tweaking as I go for as long as it takes; I'm sure something within my shortlist of options a couple of posts above will prove to be the best I can get from the engine. Here's my plug; I saw no alternative other than to upjet the Main to 145 after this run (too cold weather, too hilly, too windy, or too fast GPS speed has been taking it too hot, and not extreme conditions either, and I don't always want to be riding to my temp gauge):
Weather conditions: Outward: Precip: Cloud (0%), (before sunrise and frosty) Pressure: 1016mb Temp: 2ºC Wind: NNW – 6-11 knots (tailwind)
Return: Precip: Cloud (0%), Sunny Pressure: 1017mb Temp: 7ºC Wind: NNW – 10-15 knots (headwind)
To help me keep track, current my jetting after this tweak is: Polini vortex, RamAir filter, 45/160, BGM145MJ*, BE3+2, 170AC
(*Worth noting that BGM145MJ is probably more like a 142, and maybe I can drop it back down later in the year anyway).
Just for fun, here's a little climb at sunrise, and a quick hazard perception test:
- I won't keep posting non-technical film here, but it rounds the thread off nicely to have it buzzing round the lanes like it was intended to, and this 'brief' thread will have to end sometime soon. I will do some engine ones with GPS, CHT and sound through the rev-range to WOT sometime soon though.......
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Post by pxguru on Apr 1, 2016 12:42:32 GMT
Not sure that you needed that bigger MJ but won't do any harm. Where is the high temperature? Mid throttle 5,500rpm? Might need to think about a different slide for the final tweeks?
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Post by sime66 on Apr 2, 2016 7:54:04 GMT
I'm trying not to waffle, but it's hard to convey so much info and all the factors briefly: I've got to be able to ride it long and fast and hilly now, without being limited by my CHT guage. Also, I have to prioritise looking after that barrel, which has a lot of time and work, and the expense and buggeration of the skimming invested in it; it's more important than a bit of top-end speed, which I don't even really need at the moment. I agree that the answer probably isn't with the MJ, but for now, to be able to get out and about on long rides, I had to get it safe to ride as I want, not throttling-back to keep cool; I'm just watching the gauge at the moment, which is a drag. Any hills, headwinds, speeds, and it's getting hotter than it should. - Hard to pin it to revs; it's the work it's doing more than just the revs/speed it's doing, though I did pin it down a bit last weekend. It is not just a case of WOT = high temps; there's more factors, and it's before WOT under a combination of other conditions (e.g. ambient temp, wind, hills). My priority now is to be able to get out and about and enjoy it, not spend loads more weekends riding round in circles at home, recording and tweaking; I'll keep it safe and tweak as I go – more riding will enable me to better locate the area or rev-range that needs attention anyway. I realise we haven't talked about the slide for a long while, and that early on you said it was very much in the fine-tuning end of the job; maybe we're there now, I'm not sure I'm right at the lower end, but I'll have to familiarise myself with the slide options, and to be frank, I'm not too enthusiastic about having the carb off and apart, and playing with slide options before I've had a chance to enjoy it for a bit; I'm slightly weary of it being a permanent project, rather than something to be enjoying – probably just a temporary lull in enthusiasm for the tweaking, but I want to play now. A quick summary of what we know and to answer the rev/temp question as best I can with the recording done so far: - My low-rev accelerating and climbing is fantastic, and I really do want to keep it like that. - I think the high temps are before WOT because I've been getting to it whilst avoiding WOT because I know it will take my temps up too high. - I've been easing off between hills to get my temps down before the next climb. - Long climbing or long WOT will will take my temps too high. - I've shown it too hot at only 7,500rpm in 3rd into the wind, and that 4th didn't have much more to give under those conditions. - I've shown it getting hot very quickly on short, steep local climbs; only 40kph(ish) in 2nd, which is only about 5,500rpm – it isn't just the revs, it's the work. Thursdays long climb into the wind was 3rd gear about 65-70kph (guesstimate, no GPS); about 6 – 6,500rpm. Maybe you're right it's a mid-range lean spot, but I wouldn't put money on it with so few results to go on. - My Progression temp is still on the low side of OK though. - I'm pretty sure I've lost some top-end speed/revs in 4th since the MJ changes. ...and some other thoughts: - I'm aware that BGM jets seem to come up small; I have another (I think unbranded, courtesy of Beedspeed) 142 to compare sometime. - I'm aware that your Tourer is on a 140, and whilst it's probably not right to compare, I suspect it indicates that my MJ is too high now (although I have the vortex, so maybe not?). - I think my Pilot can probably go back to 48/160 if I do a proper job of setting it up from scratch; some of those last few changes were done a bit hurriedly, and I've lost the luxury of my private lane for setting up, which is where I really took my time with it before. - I've bought another BE3, so now I have BE3, +1, and +2 to play with. - I've still got the modified (160) AC170 in. I think I've ended up very lean in the bottom-range to get my acceleration and climbing (which is great), but ended up too lean at higher revs, and overcompensated with the Main, which is buggering my top-end; I think the answer is with reigning it back a bit lower down*, which is where I'm inclined to go.......I've ridden it very briefly this morning with the 145; it's OK, I can maybe get some better speeds/temps figures tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure it'll need attention, and my inclination is to go back and try 48/160 & 142. To re-emphasise though, I'm more inclined to use it properly and tweak as I go now, rather than spend more weekends riding round in circles. Tomorrow first thing, I'm going to do my half hour loop with GPS, film and a sound recording to overlay; I'll see what my speeds and temps are doing with the 145MJ and take it from there, but my priority for now is temp over performance - overall I'm really pleased with the engine, which is already proved - this is just carb set-up, but it's better to have it safe for long runs during the final tweaks.
*My 'reigning-in' lower down and your suggestion of a mid-range lean spot may well end up being the same thing when I've pinned it down better.
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Post by sime66 on Apr 3, 2016 18:40:13 GMT
stand back; I don't know how big this is gonna get!Quick run, Sunday morning; this result is pretty much as expected, and it will do for me for now...... Weather conditions:Precip: Cloud (93%), (light rain showers) Pressure: 1003mb Temp: 8ºC Wind: SSE – 14-20 knots (mainly crosswind) Data from video – (second lap, after a fast loop): Max between villages – 86kph – 127ºC (3rd-4th) Short burst, one junction on dual carriageway – 100kph – 141ºC (4th) Short, steep hill climb – 50kph – 113ºC (2nd-3rd) Acceleration and climbing are excellent, top speed – especially in 4th – is definitely poorer than best recorded previously, and can be fixed better than this; I'm not sure if an MD run in 3rd would show it or not; 3rd still seems pretty good. My first 20 minutes of film, the file came out as sound only and is unusable; it doesn't really matter, it was just a quick loop round the local hilly lanes. My separate WAV recording seems to be OK at decent revs, but is 'dirty' with other noises and low quality*, so it's hard to distinguish clean engine noise; the Dictaphone only records at *22kHz (88kb/s), whereas headcam records sound at 128kb/s, and MD records sound at 705kb/s, so the Dictaphone sound makes it sound lumpy, which it isn't. - all in all the recording side of things was disappointing this morning, though I'll do my best to salvage what I can from it. - I'll post anything worthwhile below later, once I've sat down and had a play. I did a 0-WOT with film and sound, but it'll take some fiddling to sync the WAV and the AVI, and I'll lose the HD video doing it because my editing software only does 720x576 MP2 and I'm not that sure the sound is 'clean' enough to be useful anyway; I'll look later. My conclusion is that I've probably sorted the temp problem, but not for sure until I do some long, hilly runs, and probably not by the best jetting option, which isn't the bigger Main, so I still intend to play with the Pilot and drop the Main sometime – or play with AC/mixer/slide, but not immediately; I can ride it like this, and that's what I'm going to do for now. I did think about the slide issue after posting before, and if that is the answer to getting this jetting right, then I must tackle it to make this build project and thread complete, but I'm having a break from tweaking for a bit first........... Here's the plug, which is better:
Here's the second half of the run (13 minutes) with the 88kb/s WAV overlay – it might make the engine seem like it's rough; it isn't – I'm not sure this method of recording sound and overlaying it is going to work, but it's all the effort I'm going to put into this Sunday's run with these recordings:
This is a 0-WOT from the same run, with the RPM app overlaid onto the film. Again I'm not sure if the WAV overlay or the RPM overlay really work as an aid to recording info – it was a bit of an experiment, which I'm not sure is helpful or not:
Using the RPM overlay, I got: 8397rpm in 3rd = 95kph (59.0mph) = OK 7025rpm in 4th = 106kph (65.9mph) = low I'm disregarding the 7348rpm in 4th because the GPS only went to 100kph, and 7348rpm = 111.5kph (69.3mph), which it didn't do on this run. - [It should, and more, but it didn't]
...( the RPM overlay is a bit jumpy, but you get to learn when it's giving a decent reading and when it's struggling to find the right signal – normally above 6000rpm is OK, so it's good for showing max revs in a gear and the drop in revs at gear change); those kph are from my gear speed table, the actual GPS kph is similar (top of this post). I'm revving lower in 3rd (but it was too high) and my 4th speed is down; I put this down to my Main being too big now, but it's staying like this for now, safe, until I'm in the mood to tweak again:
I tried the RPM overlay on a segment of the film between the villages, but I'd lost interest by then, and run out of time. The important point for this run is that the max recorded temp was 127ºC, which is OK there, and which seems to be a good indicator of it being safe elsewhere – (if it's about 125ºC there).
In both of those with rev overlays, it's clear that my speed/revs in 3rd is fine, but it does die in 4th now. I was going to do a hill climb with rev overlay too, but I've lost interest now.......
Summary; it's OK where I need it to be OK, it's safe where I was concerned about temps, it still needs a tweak, ie not so lean low-mid, and downjetting on the main when the answer is found at low-mid, but for now it'll do just fine.........
- - - intermission - - -
….....and then after I'd done a few other things with my Sunday, whilst chewing this over, and although I've convinced myself that the jetting will do for now while I have a break from tweaking, I've also realised that to get my upper rev-range performance back, I'll have to fix this low-mid lean patch (when identified and pinned-down more accurately), so I've started gathering information.
This is the list of Dellorto slides on the SIP website, other than my own 04 and some of vespasco's slides he posted before, which I'll find later and insert into this post, I do not know what each of these slides (01-09) look like or what they do, so that might be something I need to spend some time on :
Then I found SIP slides, which I suspect are more like what we're talking about – time to make the point that I don't mind collecting £3 jets for mixing and experimenting, but I'm not so keen on spending £25 a time trying these out!
(maybe I can see what others I've already got, and maybe the idea is that I cut one to suit?)
Erocarb list different slide-range of options for different carbs: si20 = 01, 06, 07, 080 & 09 si24 = 01, 02 & 04
This is what I have now; I can see that we're talking about A, and that, as well as being done away with, it could be moved forwards or back, lengthened or shortened, and made wider or deeper, to change the amount of air and when in the throttle position it is open:
I'll add any others I have, and vespasco's photos here, when I've found them.
8492-05? (SIP says for T5 - 24G):
SIP do a table for which slides they reckon are standard by model:
….and also a table for which slides they supply as standard with carbs:
(just getting all the info, so far, in one place)
I'm not sure if I'm modifying one, identifying a better Dellorto one, or looking at the SIP ones; just getting it together, and anyway I don't want to do this yet, but I think I might have to, so I might as well start gathering info and getting my head round it.
Now though, it's time to ride-about-a-bit and not worry.......................
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Post by pxguru on Apr 5, 2016 12:18:01 GMT
This can get really confusing and expensive if done too early. I think if your carb is set up all perfect everywhere except that it gets hot at half to three quarter throttle then you do need a new slide with less or no cut out on the back. If it's not going over 150 C then dont worry so much. Ride it around for a few weeks until you are sure what it needs. When the jetting is near optimum it will change slightly with the weather so difficult to pin down without an averaged approach.
All in all it's very close to being a nice strong work horse of a scooter
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Post by sime66 on Apr 5, 2016 15:57:08 GMT
Only confusing 'til all available info is gathered, cogitated and digested................ ....In the meantime I'll see what it's like after a few weeks; try to narrow down a bit better too, and generally get a better feel for what it's doing. I've got it in mind to do some riding along the coastal road where there are some tricky little steep, switchback hills down to beaches (and up again!), nice long straight run up the North coast too, so a good test all round – and a really nice ride. A couple of evening's reading about slides has given me a much better understanding of the subject, and I see something like the SIP 4.1 or 4.2 with the half-cutout and no cutout are what might be needed to get rid of that extra air, and richen-up my mid-range, which will enable me to drop my main again and get my 4th WOT back up – it makes sense to me now. I have a question, which a couple of days reading hasn't answered; I'm thinking of sending Mat Cooper an email list questions when I've got my thoughts together better; this first thought though, is along these lines, and maybe someone here knows for certain - Some slides, (for example #01 and #09) are listed as being in Si20 and Si24, so are all slides physically swappable between carbs? (are they all the same length, width and depth?) If they are, then a #07 has no underside cut-out (neither has a T5 #05, but it has a funny Progression pocket, and I ain't got none of them anyway), and possibly I could cut myself the little progression notch in a #07 to match the #04, which would make it the same as the #04 I have in the carb now, but flat-bottomed, so richer mid-range. Possibly, if that's doable, but it proved to make it too rich, I could also go on to do a bit of a 50% cut-out on the #07 (like a SIP 4.1), and if they proved to be the answer I could go on to buy a SIP one when I know what works and they're restocked. But they're £25, and I have a few #07s lying around for free! (I know it has those top pockets (so does my #04, but not the SIP 4s); from what I can gather so far they're just adding a bit of air to the idle, and are just some Eurotosh clean emissions trickery that don't affect anything important - we'd already disregarded them several pages back - p.#8) - question is, can that be made into a richer #04 to fit my Si26 carb?
Edit: I found a stated dimension for #04 as 27mmWx43mmL (I don't have one to measure myself 'cos it's in the scooter). The #07 I'm looking at measures 23.5mmWx41.5mmL. It makes sense that the slide would be a few mm all round bigger than the carb opening size, but it doesn't explain why SIP and Wasp show at least some of them as interchangeable. The slide channel on an Si20 carb body is only 24mmW, so a #04 would not fit, and it looks like my cunning plan is scrapped before it got going.
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Post by pxguru on Apr 6, 2016 6:25:14 GMT
How about finding some way of blocking up the front air supply hole on top of the carb. Could do this temporarily to see if it helps. Some air would still get in but not as much. The slide top pockets wouldn't work so well either, which would help you compare more with the SIP slides.
The problem with the top pockets for tuned scooters is when the throttle is closed at high speed. If the throttle is shut to less than 1mm open with the engine still at high rpm these top pockets can let too much air in. If the scooter acts normally in this situation then no need to worry but as you say they are just for emissions regulation (and economy!).
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Post by henri on Apr 6, 2016 6:59:50 GMT
as pxguru says , the top pockets can over lean on chopped throttles after a long thrash .an to my understanding the main suspects for slip road seizes, were after a wot thrash the shutting of throttle suddenly an completely on slip road or a downhill section causes a temp spike .the suddenly leaned up mix an loss of cooling from no fuel being fed in can cause it to nip up . its better practice an can compensate for this , to roll off the throttle gradually an treat the last few miles of a run as a "winding down" /cooling off lap . i suspect this effect an the temp spike that occurs when a engines turned off is the main cause of seizes/burnt pistons that get blamed on bad fuel . as all the storys ive heard have similar points .after a high speed dual carriageway/motorway run , a quick fuel stop then back out an upto speed to make up for lost time an 3-4 miles later crunch . the fuel gets blamed but i reckon its the double temp spike from a chopped throttle an turn off +rushed fuel stop overwhelms the cooling system causing a friction/heat cycle that can only self replicate an end one way . thats my theory ,anyway . H
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Post by sime66 on Apr 6, 2016 15:54:12 GMT
Damn good plan. Bunging the hole up as we speak; pre-empted an improvement by returning to 142 – will give it loads and see what we've got now...... I'll also have a better look at when these cut-outs and slots come in to play as the slide moves next time I take the carb off. It's good really to get slides discussed here before we're done, even if I do end up just buying a SIP special, but after a play about with it. Noted all comments about top-pockets, shutting throttle off at high revs etc. Cheers Chaps.
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Post by sime66 on Apr 7, 2016 8:52:04 GMT
I've been chewing this over, but can't satisfy my curiosity, so I'm just gonna ask;
It's bugging me that I've drilled my BE3 to give me extra air low-mid to get rid of my little flat spot in acceleration, and now I'm about to restrict the air in the same part of the rev range* - won't they just cancel each other out? I realise that in the BE drilling I'm adding air and changing the mix in the Main circuit, and with the slide change I'm adding less or no air to the mix afterwards, but is there a reason why this is different?
Edit: Maybe it isn't the same part of the rev range*; is it that the BE3 drilling is leaning the low-mid range where I want it, and the flat/blocked slide is enriching higher up the range (which has been leaned by the drilling too), say mid-upper, which I don't want lean because I'm getting too hot there and above. When I have the carb off next time I'll measure where in the rev-range the slide slot starts and finishes, but that's the most plausible theory I can muster for now.
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Post by jimscoot on Apr 7, 2016 23:15:39 GMT
Hey Sime there's a current discussion here modernvespa.com/forum/topic145921It should clear up a few things about slides and atomisers. Towards the end of the thread is where it gets into slides. I think what you've done to your be3 atomiser just helps atomise the fuel more efficiently. The slides with cutouts help reduce emissions and fuel consumption they should not effect the way the fuel is atomised in the emulsion tube. The slides with no cutouts like the sip 4.2 will eliminate very light throttle lean out..say after a WOT run and you snap the throttle shut. If your scooter is not pinging I would not be to concerned and your temps don't seem to be an issue in my mind. Its when you start running an expansion chamber and you can hear it ping then the slides with no cutouts come into play. Like px guru says..just block that hole to begin with but it won't be the same as a solid slide because it can still draw air from the throttle slide pin, so it won't give you a true indication.
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Post by sime66 on Apr 8, 2016 8:37:28 GMT
Thanks for the link Jim; I'll read it this evening. My understanding at present is this: My BE3 mods are targeted to where I want an increased leaning, which dealt nicely with a slight low-rev flat spot. I'm aware the slide cut-outs and top air pockets do not affect the mixer, but they are leaning the mix, depending on what and where we're talking about. I think you need to be clear whether you're talking about underside cut-outs or top air pockets; this is also why in some of those other threads elsewhere, people end up confusing each other. My #04 at present has both; none of the SIP #4s have top air pockets, and they go from no underside cut-out, to 50%, to full. You're right I don't have a problem; we've previously noted that you're happier running with higher temps - I know when my temp and plug are OK; I'm not fixing pinking and my engine is great as it is, I'm just dealing with a slight possible lean patch, so that I can downjet the Main again, which I think I've overjetted at present to compensate; all that's going to achieve is give me silly speeds again that I don't even need, but getting it spot-on and covering subject of slides while we're at it, are worth the extra effort. So I'm happy just tinkering at my own pace, keeping my scoot running nicely with no heat-related tragedies, and learning as I go. I have blocked the hole, I'll see over the weekend if I've got my temps down; if I see an improvement, I'll experiment with MJ again, and consider a SIP #4-type slide; probably a #4.2, which has no top pockets and no cut-outs; they are £25 so I want to be pretty certain before I buy (granted, blocking the hole is not a 100% test) , and they're low in stock and I'm in no hurry anyway, so it's all cool.
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Post by pxguru on Apr 8, 2016 14:59:22 GMT
I think you got it yourself, the "over temperature" was at 5500 rpm and the orignal flatspot at 3000rpm. Very different in terms of what to do.
The top pockets are more economical. If they are no issue and on a tourer, I would say you need to keep them.
After riding it a while, if under any normal hard riding and uphill, you can't force it over 150 degrees C and as Summer approaches this will be more difficult, I say this may not be an issue at all.
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Post by vespasco on Apr 8, 2016 22:34:52 GMT
i'll be checking out this thread later and catching up on whats what, now that i'm back in uk..... nice to see you're on the road and giving it some i'm itching to get back on mine
and start tweaking! hahahahhaha
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Post by sime66 on Apr 9, 2016 5:15:13 GMT
Hello mate! Back in the UK; wondered if you'd decided to stay. Been all sorts of interesting little tweaks on this to get her purrrfect. Plenty of time for all that though. I'm off out now (cold and damp and just before dawn - get used to it), more later..........
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