Verdict onT5 engines????

[kidda]

Hiyya folks,I'm toying with the idea of buying a T5 engine whats your verdict on them between a PX engine,is there much difference in parts etc,cheers

[kidda]

Also how much would you pay for one?cheers

[henri]

there good ,fastest 125 piaggio made stock, most have been messed with by now tho, if seized its a new barrel/or re-nicasil-ing , theres a inherent weakness in case on main bearing clutch side ,ok in use but unless extreme care taken will crack easy when renewing bearings , must use the t5 carb as inlets slightly different shape to px , an exhaust choice is limited as there diff mounts to px , most use a sito+ on em , part from that i know nuthin on em ,
oh, an they aint cheap , coz so many got thrashed n spannered to death back in the day there that expensive word "rare" in good nick , i wouldnt pay it but have seen em go for upto £500 , H

[bryno]

Depends what you want out of a motor

I ran a T5 for a few years as 125 and 172, various states of tune, honestly much prefer my stock P2 in just about every situation

But i'd certainly take a T5 over a standard or kitted P125

[vespasco]

Ive never owned a T5 engine but on paper at least, i think they're the best/one of the best vespa engines out there but will bow down to bryno s experience.
Ive often wondered why the T5 is so over looked...but as mentioned, they are a little 'rarer' than a a normal PX.
And then people put on a sito+!!?? A cheap copy of the original T5 exhaust!!
Some parts are more expensive tho'! Just as parts for 200 are a little more too.

Btw, does any one know if the T5 stator and flywheel would fit on a 200?

[henri]

thinkn the flys/stators are the same ,crank tapers same , not 100% sure ,but , as for the "best/one of the best " i'll agree with the 2nd bit , your forgetting the cosa engine , a personal fave of mine since riding one ,plug ugly til the grinder hits , but def better lump than a px anyday ,the 125 is outmatched by a t5 tho, but the 200 will thrash a px anyday , H

[vespasco]

Ive seen a complete set of cosa 200 gears for sale but at a price.
And a T5 stator/flywheel, which is why i was asking.
But I need more info on if they would fit on a stock p200 and how heavy they are. And how much air they pass. And any other mods. id  need to do?!
Ive never put the figures in a gear/mph calculator to see how different they are!?
But i did forget the cosa.. Ahem!
Yeh, i still forget the cosa. Hahaha . sorry H! But dont worry, my motors full of fugly cosa parts! Its not all bad.
The Vespa likes the cosa

[henri]

the tree n loose gears are diff ratios on a cosa , there quite revvy motors , 40mph at 4000 an get breathless at 72-75 , will look out the manual an see if ratios are in it , dont think there on beedys gear chart , more fugely cosa predujice , tho after seeing/buying 1-2 up close n personal dearly wish i could forget it , wake up sweatin sum mornings . H

[sime66]

Vespasco, there's a set listed as Cosa 200, that on closer inspection of gear teeth appear to be PX80 gears; the listing caught my eye until I relaised the apparent error:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vespa-Cosa-200-Gearbox-Sprocket-Gear-Cruciform-Main-Shaft-Next-Wave-/231560583283?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35ea161873

If those are the ones you were looking at, I'd take careful note before proceeding; I can't go back and check now, might do it again later or look for my notes when I checked it, but I think you'll find it's a PX80 gearbox.

Just for interest, also; I noticed this little job for fitting a PX exhaust on a T5. No idea if a good idea or practical; just thought I'd highlight it for the discussion about exhausts.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VESPA-T5-125-1985-1990-T5-EXHAUST-STUB-KIT-ALLOWS-A-PX-EXHAUST-TO-BE-USED-ON-T5-/291386105509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43d7f71ea5
.
.
.
.
.... I found my notes at the time; I was part-way through querying it with you chaps, but decided it was just a mis-listing, so didn't end up asking:

"Cosa 200 ratios in listing: 68 – 23,19,14,10 – 47,50,55,59
(68-23,19,14,10=px80, & 47,50,55,59=px80; is this just mislisted as Cosa 200?? )
PX 200 ratios: 65 – 21,17,13,12 – 35,38,42,57

I had thought we’d established that Cosa 200 would be the same as PX 200 EFL; any Cosanauts, or Cosa-friendly shed-dwellers care to comment? You know who you are…………"

After rechecking, I still think it's a PX80 gearbox......

[henri]

just got in an heres my 2p , the px 80 has different ratios ive been told ,never checked as ive no desire to own one , an have also read on cosanauts site the tree has differing numbers of teeth to p's ,but that might only be on the german 200cc 10hp model , will wade through my 3 languages manual an see if ratios are stated .need too anyway as the brainiac who bought a new barrel then cracked cases on the engine i got managed to buy a 10hp barrel, DOH!!!. got a exhaust port smaller than a gnats chuff . H

[henri]

right that was tedious an rather unenlightening , only got final ratios for engine to rear wheel , the 125 - 1st 1/16.4 ,2nd 1/11 , 3rd 1/7.6 an 4th 1/5.8 , the 150 an 200 are listed as the same? 1st 1/15.4 , 2nd 1/10.5 , 3rd 1/7.2 , 1/5.4 for 4th . no mention of teeth counts or actuall gear ratios or primarys/clutch teeth . this is the same manual tho that has em jetted same as px's except for tiny mains an no mention of the dreaded rogue be6 atomiser most find in them , an next to wiring diagrams has the proviso " if you find your wiring differs from this refer back to the manual given you by dealer on purchase" ,very helpful, not,
am not bout to rip open the managements to check ,she'd let me but i'm crackered today , will do a tooth count on my box friday ,i'm not at that shed til then ,they dont match beedys final ratios for p's/px's , thats for sure , small differences across the board ,with late efl's boxes the closest match , might just be in a single clutch tooth i'm guessing from first glance .
oh an talkin of clutches , seems early cosa1's didnt have a cosa clutch ,just the old 6/7 spring wrist mangler/finger cruncher . so dont have a clue what tooth count is ,
confused as me ,i hope so dont want to be the odd 1 out all the time , H

[sime66]

.....it's not that I think they are the same, H; what I was saying is that listing for a "Cosa 200" appears to show gears for a PX80.
You're our Cosanaut - what are the correct gears for a Cosa 200? (and all the others would be handy while you're at it - you're right they're not on Beedspeed tables)- if I find it first I'll post it; I haven't looked before because I thought we'd agreed they were the same as a corresponding PX-EFL.

Soon sorted anyway; just a bit of checking when there's time.........

YOU'VE POSTED WHILE I WAS WRITING, SO I DON'T KNOW IF MINE STILL MAKES SENSE UNTIL I'VE READ YOURS.......

Right then, I've read yours now; one way or another we'll get to the bottom of it - my morning time is trying to do a bit of port work on my barrel at present, but if you don't beat me to it, I'll see what i can find and maybe do some gear ratio calcs to compare with the ones you've just posted. 

[henri]

just read the kraut-bay listing , interesting negative feedback usual e bay moaners ,its dirt cheap but not gold plated boo-hoo, 159 seems a bit steep, reckon you could get same cheaper on the sausage-bay, its def a efl internal seal mainshaft , dont know if px80's ever came with those ,being a german market derivative , would be just like piaggio to save money on a new box by using up another older design , an just changing primary ratios to suit ,might explain why cosa's have more torque low down an are more revvy than P's , have to see what sip lists for both , H

[henri]

early morning porting , bet ya neighbours love you , H

[henri]

weird , 50 tooth 3rd = px80 , 68 primary is sip-listed as px80-150 , an cosa ,125 to 200, nxt to it a 65 tooths for cosa 125-150, am gettin more confused , i'd say wait vespaco an i'll check my definite cosa200 box n clutch/primary ratios an post em friday night saturday morn , H

[sime66]

I’ve had a quick look. The primaries seem straightforward enough; from SIP - subject to some hands-on Cosanaut weekend checking:



Primaries summary:



The ‘Standard’ loose gears are going to be a bit trickier to be precise about, but ‘standard’ (57/58,42,38,35/36) include Cosa in the listings on SIP; that’s not to say that’s correct though, SIP are very broad in their descriptions of parts – it would be much better to get it from a more reliable source, but:



According to that px80 = 59,55,38*,47 (*that 38 must be wrong though, I think it’s 50), and Cosa are as EFL 150/200

That’ll do for now; time to wait and see what Henri comes up with…………….
(I cannot currently be arsed to check gear ratio numbers) 



.....and I still think that Ebay.de listing is actually for a PX80, not a Cosa 200.

[vespasco]

Glad you bought that up. I hadnt actually delved into much detail. I wouldnt have bought the gold plated gearbox without more research thats for sure and maybe a win on the lottery
Id always believed the cosa 200 was the same as late PX too.
Then i read something recently to make me think that actually, maybe the cosa is slightly different?
I think youre right tho' sime
The 150 super is an interesting gearbox.

But again , ive never looked into gear ratios too much as im Pinasco powered. The only gear ive ever seiously looked at, until recently anyway, is a 34 toother

In 4th gear, my stock late px/cosa 200 gearbox does 41mph @ 4000rpm, 51 @ 5000rpm,etc etc

So is the T5 gearbox the same as 125px? 4th is for sure. Im being lazy tbh. I could look. Just trying to steer it back on track

[sime66]

Aha! Here's one I prepared earlier (from page 1 of my marathon thread) - T5 is there with four other standard P gearboxes in yellow highlight -- before we talked about PX80 or Cosa, so maybe I'll tweak my table after this investigation:



I'll read all the other stuff later.........

...just to tidy up the PX80/Cosa thing; the main interest (for me anyway) is knowing which parts are interchangeable between P/PX-E/PX-EFL/Cosa (a T5=PX125EFL gearbox), especially when wandering into Ebay.de, where there's a lot of Cosa and PX80; it's just building up the knowledge a bit.

(I'll do your 34T 4th gear speed table sometime too   )

[henri]

vespaco , the super box is for 8" wheels , in yours you'd probably top out at 50-55mph ,but get there very-very fast, mostly on the back wheel alone , hilarious in town but murder on longer runs , H

[vespasco]

Ive had a quick play with the
www.scooterhelp.com/tuning/vespa.gear.calc.html

T5 gives the same speeds as a 200 but with... a T5 4th but by using different ratios.

Heres the 150 super gear box with 200 primary...
I thought it was a common? thing back in the days?
I think i may still have a 150 gearbox too!!

Heres the stock 200 for comparison....

[doulsy]

So? If you had an old rusty needing restored stock p200 engine? Would it be best to restore that than buy a second hand t5 or new lml engine?

[henri]

a re-built p200 lump would be worth same money as a t5 lump to buy , an the t5 lump would probably need work to start with , a new lml would lose value soon as you unwrapped it , if youve got decent p200 cases ya best bet n cheapest option would be to restore that i'd of thought ,new crank/barrel/bearings/seals an sundries would top out around £300 , thats the buy in for a crackered t5 lump, an you'd have practically a new lump, that wouldnt have to be full throttle to go decent speeds like the t5 is . H

[doulsy]

May 25, 2015 8:58:41 GMT henri said:

a re-built p200 lump would be worth same money as a t5 lump to buy , an the t5 lump would probably need work to start with , a new lml would lose value soon as you unwrapped it , if youve got decent p200 cases ya best bet n cheapest option would be to restore that i'd of thought ,new crank/barrel/bearings/seals an sundries would top out around £300 , thats the buy in for a crackered t5 lump, an you'd have practically a new lump, that wouldnt have to be full throttle to go decent speeds like the t5 is . H

cheers, no really bothered about being the fastest, would prefer reliable.

[henri]

go with the p200 then , dont tune keep stock , decent quality bits an you'll have a reliable machine with decent cruising speeds , H

[doulsy]

May 25, 2015 15:49:14 GMT henri said:

go with the p200 then , dont tune keep stock , decent quality bits an you'll have a reliable machine with decent cruising speeds , H

been looking at parts for a long time, beedspeed has parts listed as standard, £300 for piston,barrel and crank alone, what bearing and seals would you recommend?

[henri]

those must be genuine bits ,as when a looked around a barrel/piston kit was bout 100 an a crank bout the same , as your keeping stock you dont need fancy seal n bearings , theres bearing kits on e bay for around £30 for every bearing ,SKF bearings what piaggio use as stock, its tempting to upgrade the clutch side main bearing as its the one that gets hardest time , i use japanese 9 ball ones over the skf 8 balls , there 22 quid each , your not going to need "viton" seals ,just the stock ones will be more than adequate .H

[henri]

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151662823594?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT £28
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Crank-Racing-MAZZUCCHELLI-Crankshaft-Vespa-Rally-200-P200E-PX200-MY-Cosa-/121622579029?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c51454755 £96
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VESPA-SUNDARSCOOTS-VESPA-PX-200cc-ALUMINIUM-CYLINDER-BARREL-KIT-WITH-PISTON-SET-/271871958262?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f4cd4dcf6 £135 for ali
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vespa-200-Cylinder-Barrel-Piston-Kit-Italian-/281414045034?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4185958d6a £135 for italian iron , rms .
or www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VESPA-PX-200-COSA-CYLINDER-BARREL-PISTON-KIT-Zylinderkit-66-50-MM-/251803226910?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aa0a4531e £60 quid for indian iron that hasnt sat in a italian customs house to have its nationality "changed" or in beedys wharehouse to have "swiss" stickers put on ,
tho if ya do go mazzy crank , dropkick the mazzy little end bearing , there swearing blind there was a "bad batch" an fault is cured now , but are still refusing refunds as there "for race only" , i'll not trust em again , a stock one will last better ,no need for a jap kawasaki kh400 1 ,
as they say "you pays ya dosh n takes ya choice " , by goin beedys more expensive all in kit your just saving some research/bargain hunting time , i find it fun an i'm tight so i shop around , H

[doulsy]

Thanks i will look at these when i get home tonight.

[doulsy]

looked at those links H, think im gonna pay the extra for the standard(as beedspeed call them), only bearings i can see are the ones you posted, whats the best seals and gaskets i can get? im rebuilding this myself from the sausage DVD so i only want to do it once, fingers crossed. oh aye, thanks for taking the time to put the links up.

[henri]

best gaskets out the box , RMS ones ,or VE(uk) ,cheap indian gasket kits often need fettling to fit perfect but there what i usually use ,lml 1's, but i'm tight ,
as i said above you dont need to get viton seals but there the best but also cost the most, otherwise the blue seals are good ,am struggling to remember there proper name , H