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Post by moomoo on Apr 1, 2015 14:13:06 GMT
Well started the bike up for the very first time since it was rebuilt. Had to put fuel down the throat of the carb though. It only run for about 10 seconds but sounded mint. A lot lot quieter than I thought it would be, but then again I suppose it should be quiet when everything is brand new.. It did have some old fuel in the tank for about 2-3 years and I'm wondering if over time it's gone 'sticky' and the filter in the tank has gunged up? Does anyone know what the flow rate should be when the fuel pipe is disconnected from th carb and the tap turned fully on? I'm thinking of taking the tank back off and giving the whole thing a good clean including the filter. The carb is brand new so I cant see there being a problem there unless some debris has managed to get down the fuel pipe. It did sound great though............ while it lasted!
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Post by bryno on Apr 1, 2015 16:08:39 GMT
I do have the flow rate in the factory manual if you need it..
But it should be pretty obvious if flow is your issue, it only needs a trickle to run at tickover, sounds like you have pretty well zero flow.
Yes, the fuel could have turned to varnish, though I'd just check the fuel pipe isn't kinked under the tank first and that your fuel line is not to long and causing an air lock, then move onto tank out and a flow check.
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Post by moomoo on Apr 1, 2015 18:35:38 GMT
There is fuel at the banjo on the carb but its difficult to know if theres an airlock. I was gonna clean the filter at the tap in the tank but I dont have the tool to get it out. There is a bit of debris in the tank but nothing to call anything. When I opened the throttle I was expecting a squirt if fuel through the small brass jet that's about halfway up the venturi but theres nothing coming out. Is there a rule o f thumb for the mixture jet and the long needle that protrudes through the filter housing? for example fully tightened and a turn out say?..If I could get it to tick over it'd be nice for now.
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Post by bryno on Apr 1, 2015 19:46:13 GMT
You mean the mixture screw on back of the carb? 1 1/2 turns out from fully in, or more like 2 turns if you have a later carb with the really fine thread on the mix screw.
There is no standard on the tickover screw.
It's quite easy to kink the pipe under the tank, also do check the length of the pipe if it's to long even by an inch it can cause problems.. I can't recall exact length but the question has been asked a few times before so a quick Google will tell you.
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Post by moomoo on Apr 1, 2015 20:20:48 GMT
Bryno I found this which is quite good I dont know if all these specs are in the workshop manual but it gives the fuel line length as 2 feet. I'll give mine a measure but suspect it may be longer. www.vespamaintenance.com/specs.html |
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Post by doulsy on Apr 1, 2015 20:35:32 GMT
Well started the bike up for the very first time since it was rebuilt. Had to put fuel down the throat of the carb though. It only run for about 10 seconds but sounded mint. A lot lot quieter than I thought it would be, but then again I suppose it should be quiet when everything is brand new.. It did have some old fuel in the tank for about 2-3 years and I'm wondering if over time it's gone 'sticky' and the filter in the tank has gunged up? Does anyone know what the flow rate should be when the fuel pipe is disconnected from th carb and the tap turned fully on? I'm thinking of taking the tank back off and giving the whole thing a good clean including the filter. The carb is brand new so I cant see there being a problem there unless some debris has managed to get down the fuel pipe. It did sound great though............ while it lasted! old fuel is very bad, friend of mine works for a tool hire place and every year has to fix two stroke machines because of old fuel lying in the tank from last year, i allready asked how long the fuel pipe should be but forgot allready lol, think it was something ending in 60  |
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Post by moomoo on Apr 1, 2015 20:41:51 GMT
Hi doulsy. Was it 60cm? That's the same as 2 feet. Did you have any trouble starting yours?
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Post by doulsy on Apr 1, 2015 20:46:33 GMT
Hi doulsy. Was it 60cm? That's the same as 2 feet. Did you have any trouble starting yours? still have trouble starting mine, once its heated up it starts with very little effort though, takes about 20 kicks from cold, stick a full gallon of fresh stuff in, first time i put my tank in it wouldnt start unless i put the reserve on, even though i thought there was plenty in it. |
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Post by doulsy on Apr 1, 2015 20:47:39 GMT
cant remember the size, i posted on here a few weeks ago
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Post by henri on Apr 2, 2015 11:02:57 GMT
24" if my addled brain is workin , most put tank crossways on frame,towel underneath to stop scratches n cut the pipe so its just long enuff to fit , then its just bout right , H
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Post by moomoo on Apr 2, 2015 13:17:10 GMT
Thank H
Will give it a go. Bought new fuel line from Vespa. The guy told me to blow out the jets even though the carb is brand new.
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Post by bryno on Apr 2, 2015 14:58:43 GMT
24" rings a bell, that must be it  Yes, if you have run the old fuel through the new carb you may have picked up some crap in the jets, but if you can't get it to even tick over that is pretty well a total loss of fuel flow so shouldn't be hard to find the issue.. |
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Post by vespasco on Apr 2, 2015 16:40:48 GMT
Yes 24" or 610mm
There could just be an air lock in the fuel line??
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Post by henri on Apr 2, 2015 17:50:45 GMT
nock of that metric crap mate ,24" bout 2 boot lengths,or if ya want to get technical a tad longer than from ya elbow to clenched fist knuckles ,thats a cubit ,18" , an if ya fold middle finger back to touch palm from that spot to end of stretched middle finger , is 6" , 18+6=24" , things was simpler when i was a nipper ,ya didnt need a ruler to measure stuff , an now i'm rambling n def lookin like ive lost the plot ,gettin olds killin me , H
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Post by moomoo on Apr 2, 2015 18:36:11 GMT
Hi H
Gettin olds killing you?......It's coming to us all H. Any way enough of the doom and gloom I've got a confession to make. I bought a spanner to take the fuel tap out with and the mate who's been helping gave everything a good old old clean out from tank to carb jets. He fitted a new fuel pipe and cut it as short as he dare fitted it all back together, kicked it and nothing...not even a spark at the plug. I then noticed that as he was kicking the bike the flywheel was not going round....and it was loose! When the engine had been rebuilt the nut holding the flywheel on hadn't been tightened and the woodruff key had sheared off very neatly on the crankshaft! It's a wonder it started yesterday and that's why it only lasted 10 seconds.The fuel looks a though it's definitely getting through now because there's a mist of fuel at the throat of the carb when the bike's kicked. New woodruff key tomorrow and fingers crossed!
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Post by henri on Apr 3, 2015 8:43:20 GMT
scoots ,ya got to love em eh, sorry bout the ramblin misery yesterday , 2 days 2 funerals had got too me , back to happy today , scoots can do that for ya ,bless em,
an i always use a blob of thread lock on both key n nut , gives a bit more peace of mind , an a proper fly-locking tool means ya can tighten/loosen without damage to fins , H
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Post by moomoo on Apr 3, 2015 10:00:15 GMT
New woodruff key fitted and Presto!....the bike sounds beautiful. Its got a sito exhaust and it's really nice and quiet. Opened it up a bit and very responsive. I think the tickover needs adjusting so some tweaking to do yet but overall I'm a happy bunny (pardon the pun at Easter.). The missus (in her infinite knowledge) asked me when I was gonna start the Lamretta .....yes Lamretta motorbike up....I told her it's a Vespa and it's already running! LOL!
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Post by moomoo on Apr 4, 2015 8:41:24 GMT
Hi again,
My joy was short lived. The bike runs lovely...when its running.... and thats the problem. It'll run for a few minutes revving up nicely but then it suddenly dies and wont kick up again. When I take the plug out and earth it and kick the engine sometimes it sparks and sometimes it doesnt. The plug is brand new. I'm wondering if the CDI unit is faulty...it looks old (and so do I) but then again looks arent everything. Apparently you cant test the CDI unit even with a multimeter. The dealers tell me to try a friend who has a good one on their bike...trouble is I havent got any friends either. Do I take the plunge and fork out about £30 for a Ducati CDI and risk it? What if it's not the problem? Is there anything I can do to eliminate everything else first?
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Post by henri on Apr 4, 2015 12:50:18 GMT
measure the pick up resistance first , they fail just as much as the cdi's , an as the scoot will start from cold an not from hot eliminate a stuck on choke , an i know youve gone all piaggio original for parts , but a pattern cdi just to try is less than half a ducatti one , am trying to remember the wiring colours , the pick up should measure 105 ohms +- 5 an windings are 530 i think ,+- 20 , havent a manual/notebook to hand but a search on here should throw up the info, if not "modern vespa" site def has it ,
an the usual checks aswell ,sparks from lead without cap, make sure lead is firm in cdi ,an its rare but plugs can be bad out the box , an make sure the white/earth lead from stater is a good earth aswell as yellow/earth from cdi , i have seen readings for multimetering a cdi ,but think they where for fancyer aftermarket ignition systems, i think it was on the smallframe vespa forum , will check, am home tommorrow an will also check my above figures an post the wire colours , think its white/red 105 ,an white/green 530 , but i never trust my memory an usually do it from a note book , ok, H
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Post by sime66 on Apr 4, 2015 14:12:36 GMT
I always have to look it up before doing it too; I just grabbed these from Modern Vespa; they’re similar – take your pick, also me and several others have covered it on this forum before too; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- check resistance between green (not the kill switch wire, the other one) and white wire, should be 500 +/- 20 ohms. check resistance between white and red wire, should be 110 +/- 5 ohms.zero = short circuit. got infinity = broken windings. ---------------------------------------------------------------- STATOR VALUES, HOW TO TEST USING A MULTI METER STATOR VALUES FOR YOUR INFO the LML stators are identical except for the push connectors to the piaggio versions. The following tests can be carried out to a Piaggio Vespa stator in exactly the same way. a sep cribb as follows THREE IGNITION GROUPS: 1. green(LT) 2. white(EARTH) 3. red (CDI trip wire) TWO LIGHT GROUPS: 4. black (EARTH) 5. blue (UN REGULATED AC)(more you rev the engine more voltage it makes) to test the ignition (set metre to resistance ohms)put your black probe to the white cable (earth) and then make circuits with your red probe to: 1. engine case (should be short circuit or less than 1ohm). if not you have no earth continuity. 2. red wire (should be 93-120ohms) if it is outside of this your pickup (halls effect sensor is f**ked) 3. green wire (should be 450-540 ohms)if values fall outside of this your single ignition coil winding is damaged. to test the lighting groups put your black probe to the black (earth) cable, then: 4. test to engine case, again this should be a short circuit less than 1 ohm. last test on blue cable, start engine, set metre to AC voltage metre. 5. on engine idle it should be pumping out minimum of 21-38 volts at 600 rpm + you can get peak voltage to these values on a good kick of the starter pedal if you take the spark plug out first. all these values are common on all electronic vespa stators. In addition to the above electrical tests you should physically inspect your stator. Look for breaks in windings, loose studs, dry soldered joints etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Found mine: vespa.proboards.com/thread/3831/stator-overhaul...I had similar problems – would always start after a struggle, then run if I kept the revs up, then run well for a but, but always cut out when warmed up and would never restart until the next day. Ended up replacing stator and CDI, but that might have been one going and me buggering the other one forcing it to run when it really didn’t want to – never did decide which went first, but both were buggered in the end. |
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Post by henri on Apr 4, 2015 15:31:17 GMT
thought i was close , but lml staters have the lower values simes states , piaggio the highr numbers ,eg 105 n 500 ,ok, H
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Post by moomoo on Apr 4, 2015 17:00:57 GMT
I always have to look it up before doing it too; I just grabbed these from Modern Vespa; they’re similar – take your pick, also me and several others have covered it on this forum before too; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- check resistance between green (not the kill switch wire, the other one) and white wire, should be 500 +/- 20 ohms. check resistance between white and red wire, should be 110 +/- 5 ohms.zero = short circuit. got infinity = broken windings. ---------------------------------------------------------------- STATOR VALUES, HOW TO TEST USING A MULTI METER STATOR VALUES FOR YOUR INFO the LML stators are identical except for the push connectors to the piaggio versions. The following tests can be carried out to a Piaggio Vespa stator in exactly the same way. a sep cribb as follows THREE IGNITION GROUPS: 1. green(LT) 2. white(EARTH) 3. red (CDI trip wire) TWO LIGHT GROUPS: 4. black (EARTH) 5. blue (UN REGULATED AC)(more you rev the engine more voltage it makes) to test the ignition (set metre to resistance ohms)put your black probe to the white cable (earth) and then make circuits with your red probe to: 1. engine case (should be short circuit or less than 1ohm). if not you have no earth continuity. 2. red wire (should be 93-120ohms) if it is outside of this your pickup (halls effect sensor is f**ked) 3. green wire (should be 450-540 ohms)if values fall outside of this your single ignition coil winding is damaged. to test the lighting groups put your black probe to the black (earth) cable, then: 4. test to engine case, again this should be a short circuit less than 1 ohm. last test on blue cable, start engine, set metre to AC voltage metre. 5. on engine idle it should be pumping out minimum of 21-38 volts at 600 rpm + you can get peak voltage to these values on a good kick of the starter pedal if you take the spark plug out first. all these values are common on all electronic vespa stators. In addition to the above electrical tests you should physically inspect your stator. Look for breaks in windings, loose studs, dry soldered joints etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Found mine: vespa.proboards.com/thread/3831/stator-overhaul...I had similar problems – would always start after a struggle, then run if I kept the revs up, then run well for a but, but always cut out when warmed up and would never restart until the next day. Ended up replacing stator and CDI, but that might have been one going and me buggering the other one forcing it to run when it really didn’t want to – never did decide which went first, but both were buggered in the end. |
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Post by moomoo on Apr 4, 2015 17:09:17 GMT
I've checked the ignition side using the multimeter and all the values fall within the values that you posted.I am assuming then that all is well in the stator. I took the CDI unit to a Vespa dealer in Leeds and he tested it and said it was fine. I don't know how to test the CDI unit using a multimeter....are there any readings to indicate if it's working correctly or not. I have swapped HT leads and removed the green wire that goes from from the ignition switch to the CDI unit but there is still no constant spark at the plug when it's kicked, sometimes theres a 'weak' spark and then none at at all, it's all a bit flummoxing! Btw I left the flywheel on when I tested the ignition, is that OK?
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Post by sime66 on Apr 4, 2015 18:06:24 GMT
I’ll try to answer you before the old-hands get back; I know it’s been frustrating for you.
I don’t know if or how you can test a CDI (I’ll keep an eye on here to see if H comes up with some numbers though); the normal way is to swap it and see if it fixes it. It’s not such a bad idea to get a cheaper CDI to check it, and keep or carry it as a spare on longer journeys. It was the same with mine – ruled out fuel problems, checked and replaced all HT and plug, did stator readings, it only leaves the CDI.
You can have the flywheel on to test the stator (You need it for the Blue, A/C, anyway if you wanted to check that) – you’ve just had yours off so a visual inspection of wiring is probably unnecessary, BUT, without reading back through your posts, which I’ve only read briefly without getting involved so far, have you checked your timing? Visually on the stator markings, and strobing? – I’m sure you have, or it’s been mentioned already. Also that your flywheel isn’t rubbing or knocking it out of position? Note also what kru said to me about loose rivets on the stator in my thread.
I reckon you’ve got to wait for H to give us some CDI testing info, or bite the bullet and try a replacement one; you have pretty much eliminated everything else and you’ll be glad you did if you spend £20 and your baby comes to life!
That’s all I can think of really; hope you get it sorted – sun’s coming out for rest of hoiday……..
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Post by vespasco on Apr 4, 2015 21:59:15 GMT
Well, i think you're all right on the figures really, depending on which model/stator you have. (I go by an old piaggio manual for px200), as above green-white = 500+/-20, red-white = 110+/-5 But its true to say even if they're a little bit more out (like another +/-10ऊँ) they still work I went to start the vespa today. And for the first time ever...it didnt start :0 No spark! Typically i just sold a perfect complete engine with a perfect cdi so i cant check my cdi! (The only sure way to check is to swap for a known good one). If a new/different cdi doesnt make a difference then look at the stator. Readings as above ^^^^ Take your readings with the cdi disconnected. So ive also been looking at stators and cdi s, just in case, deciding on the BGM cdi and stator from Scooter Center Im hoping ive still got a spare cdi somewhere... The box of treasures has been raided a few times recently :\ |
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Post by henri on Apr 5, 2015 8:24:29 GMT
ive had a quick look an cant find the cdi figures again , tho memorys saying they where for bgm/khleper 1's anyway , am home today an can meter a known good one ,ducatti an see what i get ,ok,
an also will look out the name of the re-programable ones for ya vespaco ,scooter centre do em , kyrptronic comes to mind but isnt quite right , if ya feeling slightly rich at bout 80 quid that is , H
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Post by vespasco on Apr 5, 2015 20:14:14 GMT
Well, ive just come back from an hours ride,which means its working again! I found an old cdi, didnt know if it worked though. I found a couple of worn wires, almost broken at the spade connection. Althpugh im not sure if i done that when i pulled the wires off the cdi. I cleaned them up. Connected the other cdi. Still no joy. So i ruled out the cdi (kinda thinking theyre both ok) and moved on to stator. I wasnt happy with my ignition pick up and bought a new one a few weeks back. Fitted that. Had to file it down loads to clear the flywheel. I did notice the ends of the HT lead were black/looked slightly burnt! So cleaned that up (too short now really)! A dodgy wire caused that i suspect?? Tried again, still no spark. Next, disconnect the ignition switch from cdi, (the end green wire coming off the cdi) not suspecting it would be the fault as it doesnt move, its well put together, and untouched. But! Yes! Spark! So i checked the continuity and found the readings jumping all over the place. Re checked wires. Found nothing suspicious. Then somewhow, all was well again!?!? Gremlins!! So i re connected the cdi id been using for years and it started first kick! I strobed the timing to 19°. Warmed it up. Adjusted the carb again And all is well again!? Maybe some of that will be of help to you MooMoo Edit: ive had me beady eyes on a programmable 'Kepher' ... Thats what i said when i saw the price of those! Thankfully theyve sold out atm!! |
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Post by moomoo on Apr 5, 2015 21:08:31 GMT
Hi vespasco,
Thanks very much. ANY information is worth keeping in mind and to be able to reference in times of need/desperation. I have however took the plunge and ordered a new stator and cdi unit. I did actually take the green (ignition) wire off the cdi unit in case it was earthing out anywhere . I did the extensive ohm meter and continuity reading checks but although all the values were within the values posted I have still had no joy. I actually had the cdi unit checked at Chiselspeed near Leeds (they have a machine that tests them) and he told me the unit was working perfectly fine. I'm gonna fit brand new parts vespasco in order to eliminate ANY possibility of those parts being faulty. I will try the bike again and if everything is OK (fingers crossed!) I'mm gonna take the ohm meter and continuity readings between all the terminals on all the components. Thanks for your reply vespasco I'm certain it will come in useful to many.
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Post by sime66 on Apr 6, 2015 9:15:45 GMT
Glad you got it sorted vespasco, didn't doubt it for a moment - hope you enjoy BH Monday now.............
Moomoo, I replied to your PM a couple of days ago...
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