First thoughts on engine build in 2015 – ideas/comments invi

[sime66]

I’m not sure I’m ready to ask this yet, so this is very much a first shot across your bows to see if I’m barking up the right tree; I have another PX150 engine to play with, which I’m not ready to start a thread about yet; still getting my thoughts together. I’m just getting an idea of what to do with it, what it’s going to cost and whether I’m up to the barrel and casing work that might be needed. (Still only got 9 fingernails from last time).

I’m in no hurry to make decisions, but maybe it’s time to get me pointed in the right direction; I’m not after a racer; a good, reliable, strong torquey number with a decent top speed, but mainly good at pulling me up and down the hills and lanes round here, with maybe the occasional blast to get me a good distance fairly quickly. I’m pretty happy with what I have, but I’d like a bit more pulling power, and I just want to do the selecting and build job too, as a learning exercise, unless it is a complete waste of money.

Note: I do not want to play with the good engine I have from my 2014 efforts; maybe just shift the barrel in the spring, but that’s my 2015 ride.

Another Note: I suspect good advice would be to sort my licence and get a 200 – for the moment, lets not spend time on that subject; it’s a separate matter and I do like my scooter, and don’t intend to change it any time soon.

After some flitting through various forums last night I keep seeing that a Pinasco 177 is well-rated, reliable, not too revvy, and I can choose between C.I. and Al when I know the pros and cons better. Trying to incorporate previous advice on this forum, I’m convinced that a 60mm crank is the way to go (pxguru), and I’ve already got an electric start flywheel with the intention of removing the start ring to lighten it a bit (vespasco). I would keep my gearbox standard unless we find an improvement in ratios to suit. I would keep my 21 tooth clutch, unless 22 is going to be better (without messing up low revs), in which case I’d probably get another clutch for this engine too. I’ll stick with a 24 carb but tidy the transfer to casings, and I definitely don’t want any lairy-looking pipe, so would stick with my Sip Road 2.

You chaps know me, the riding I do, and what I’ve said previously about what I do and don’t want, so:

1. Am I wasting my money? Is this more than I need? Is it a waste if I don’t change my pipe?

2. Am I up to the job(s)? OK I know I’m going to have to match the casings, but barrel porting too? Port height and timing and all that simpler barrel malarkey can be tackled though, with what’s been learned so far.

3. Am I thinking along the right lines with my first ideas, or way off?

Links:

www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/long+stroke+crankshaft+mazzu_46000000

www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+pinasco+177cc+_80500000

or

www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+pinasco+177cc+_84110000

So:
Pinasco 177, SI24/24/e, 60mm crank, Sip Road 2, matched casings, light(ish) flywheel, port heights adjusted to optimum without barrel cutting (yet?), gearing and clutch TBA.

I have a blank canvass; any thoughts???

[hully1]

Hi Sime,

i have not so long ago had a DR180 kit fitted with a Sito plus exhaust as i also required a bit more pork pulling power on the hills. i have not had this case matched as yet or changed the gearing and still using a standard 20 carb but the difference in power even tho still running in it is quite amazing. had this fitted with all parts for around 260 quid so with you doing the works yourself i believe it will definitely be worth a shot.

[sime66]

Thanks chaps; in order of replies:

Gaz:
No lairy pipe, no butchering of 2014 engine. I’m completely flexible with kit at this early stage; and it doesn’t have to be alloy, I would rather not dremel anything except matching the casings, but might tackle it on an iron barrel. Not sure what you’re getting at with ignition question – standard PX stator, and make sure the CDI isn’t limited – simples, innit!? I am not a boy racer; I do not want a racer – how high I could rev it and how fast I could make it go are not the same as what I want from it. If it turns out I am wasting my money, I’ll have a radical rethink on what I’m going to do, but it won’t be to build something I don’t want or need.

Hully:
This is Engine No2 (2015). I rebuilt my DR180 last year and it’s turned out well; I intend to enjoy that engine while I use what I’ve learned so far to build this 2015 effort, my early thinking for which is outlined above. DR180 (2014) is a done deal apart from modest tweaks. I agree it’s a nice set up, and if what I’m thinking above is not a worthwhile cost and effort, I’m actually quite happy with my DR180 too.

All:
I want to do this separately to my 2014 engine because there is no way I’m having another year with my engine in bits – that 2014 engine is staying in my scooter until after next summer. Butchering it to do this is not an option, except maybe for swapping some external parts in the autumn/winter 2015.

[vespasco]

Ali v cast iron...
If you think you're going to be cylinder porting then cast iron,,,,thats the only reason id choose cast iron over ali...yes you can still port ali/nikasil but it is much harder to do (literally).
if you buy the right kit, that wont need extra porting, then for me, ali is a no brainer...
Forget the fact you cant rebore ali like you can a cast iron one.....its like saying buy a cast iron barrel so 'when' it fks up you can rebore it. If you do it right you wont ever need to rebore it!! Simple! And theres less chance you will need to rebore the ali anyway as it will run cooler/ more efficiently.
Im suprised you didnt look for a T5 engine... Im not sure, as i never owned one, but would think they would be best for tuning ?? Maybe wrong?! 5 ports, nice carb....
Ive no real experience with 125/150 kits so could not comment on the best set up for your purposes...if the pinasco for 125 is similar to the 225 then for hill climbing you should be ok.
My advice is to not go out and buy everything to begin with because as you build you will undoubtedly find out you need tuning part B and not the part A you bought only the week before... Youre in no hurry so thats good.
With a sip road, 24mm carb you will still be able to use your clutch ok.

It probably depends on whether you use a long a stroke ( ) and if the cylinder you use would need any porting to match the long stroker.. Are there kits especially for long stroker?? (There are for the 200 nowadays)
Check out the crank inlet durations on the cranks too.. Different manufacturers use different timings..its not just bout choosing 'any' or 'the strongest' or 'best named branded' long stroke, get one suited best to your kit/carb/pipe.
For example, my pinasco 225.... Is quite a torquey tourer, not too revvy, with conservative/stock like port timings! so i choose a similar crank that has 'stock like' timings to match, (a MecEur stroker), which also matched the 'stock like' pipe and carb and gears!!
If i had a high revver, id need more inlet so id go for more of a 'race' crank with a longer inlet duration so i can produce the revs easier...id need a carb and pipe to match of course!!

Having said all that of course, you may end up choosing a Polossi?!?!?! Hehehehe

And the dr for eg....... Does the dr180 need extra porting if you just raise the cylinder by 1mm?, i cant remember if that was fully discussed or not.... or is that where its optimum is already without the need for extra porting?
I realise you dont want to touch your well running engine, im just weighing up the costs, which are obviously animportant factor.....but for the cost of 1mm packer compared to a 'new' engine...its a hell of a lot cheaper to add the packer. But you know that right! And you want to build an engine using the knowledge youve (we've) picked up on of late.....
Take it account cost of bearings, seals, gaskets, cylinder kit, head? Crank, any new tools you end up buying, clutch rebuild, gears? Fastflow tap?, brakes.. Luckily for you most ofthese parts are nowhere as expensive as for the 200!!!

[sime66]

Gaz, yo’re dead right that if it isn’t enough of a different engine it isn’t worth the time and money; this decision is where I’m at, BUT that doesn’t mean I build something I don’t really want, just to justify the money spent; it would be better just not to spend the money, but I want to get away from the theory without buggering up my ride; maybe overcautious - that's me, that's my decision, my 2015 ride is not to be threatened. Also there are many new marathon tuning threads to come this Winter (if we can keep the usual suspects keen); one at a time and in depth though, hopefully. I’ll add ignition options to the list, because so far I’m only vaguely aware that a couple of options have come up on here in recent moths. It wasn’t my intention to go mad on that aspect this time, but always keen to learn stuff. I haven’t thought about my 2016 engine build yet!
….And you can keep your parmakit 187 water-cooled big b*ll*cks, better, faster, louder – it ain’t me.

Thanks vespasco, you’ve picked up on two fundamental points; that I don’t want to mess with my good engine for now (maybe after I’ve built a good spare), and that I’m aware it would probably be more cost effective (but not an option for me at present) to butcher the engine I have, but really what I want to do is start with a blank canvas and apply some of what we’ve learned here so far; as long as it isn’t a total waste of effort and money.
At present I’m getting ideas together, through research and asking questions here and elsewhere, and I have until after the summer to make my mind up. So I see the order and priority of jobs as roughly this:
1) Decide if it is sensible to build an engine from scratch from the point of view of cost, whether it will be sufficiently better to make it worthwhile given the self-imposed limits (the exhaust for example), or whether I should bin the idea now before spending loads of money, and just hang on to these casings and gearbox for now, until I have a better plan for them.
2) If I decide to just hang on to them, then that is the end of the spending other than real bargains for bits I’ll need sometime, and I’ll just continue with research and maybe just do those spring tweaks to my DR that we’ve talked about. There is also the possibility that I use these casings for a full transplant while I do the two jobs on the other casings that need doing – the drain and the engine mounts; I’m kicking ideas about; maybe just that and the DR barrel in the autumn.
3) If I decide to go ahead with a build, then I will start the search for 2nd hand stuff to make my pile of bits into an engine (I already have a list for that – hopefully most of which I can find in 6-9 months to keep the butchering of my DR engine to a minimum). I have approximate prices for two sets of stuff; the new tuning stuff, and the 2nd hand engine-build stuff; I can post my spreadsheet if anyone wants to scrutinsie it; I know what’s missing because I just did it all on the DR.
4) If I decide to go ahead with the build then the technical investigation/planning can continue for 6-9 months alongside the gathering of 2nd hand bits, but BEFORE spending any money on tuning.
5) I emphasise I’m planning for autumn 2015; not spring, and my engine in my scooter as it is now is hopefully going to be some well-earned fun and trouble-free riding until after the summer and another MOT before it comes out – whatever I decided to do!
I’ll go on to read and digest (and probably ask plenty of dumb questions) about the other more-technical stuff you’ve raised later, but at present I’m trying to get a feel for whether I’m wasting my brain and money on the idea, or whether there’s something worthwhile in my thinking. I can’t really answer your technical/tuning points in any detail at this stage, but you’ve given me several other things to think about, and I will look into all of them; time is no pressure at all.

First though, is deciding if the project is a goer or not.

I do know I could work on my DR, match my old casings, play with the barrel, get a big exhaust etc, etc.; I’m thinking that the DR engine will get some proper attention after I’ve got another good engine in there to keep me on the road while I get that one up to scratch – when my knowledge and skills will hopefully have grown again………..

I’ve seen a couple of T5 engines go for big bucks while I’ve been thinking about this; I have a feeling that an old T5 is likely to have been thrashed and be as much of a money pit as good casings, and too sporty/revvy for me anyway. I also read a fair bit about 5port LML casings, but these ones I’ve bought came up, I’m happy that I got them; I’m just now deciding whether they’re a good basis for a project – I’m sure they are, but I’m not too stubborn to bin it if it’s a bad idea.

I'm keeping away from massive tuning, not just because of cost, my skills, experience and facilities, the lairy pipe, and gawd knows what else, but also because I want the emphasis on a good, strong, RELIABLE motor, lugging me round the lanes and hills, not a revvy, racer that's costing me money and down-time all the time. I want to ride the bugger, not be forever fixing it. - scooters should be on roads, not in sheds.

[pxguru]

Nice idea but I think unless you are going to build a different type of engine, for a different use, it's a bit of a waste of money.

Now you have the other engine. You could just build it as a fully standard 150 (barrel tuned for torque of course) for spares or reserve to keep you on the road if something happens to the other one.

If you just put a 1mm packer on your 180 and a better head (at the same time or separately, doesnt matter), I think you would be quite happy with it. For quite a while.

[vespasco]

Is the project a goer?

I think you will and to a certain extent, should, build an engine!
You know you want to you got the bug, so scratch the itch and you'll feel much better for it afterwards
Putting all the theory to practice is the real test of your understanding.
Is it sensible? Haha! We all know the answer to that one..
If you feel the need to get your 9 finger nails dirty you could start cleaning up all your pieces you have so far, assemble what you have (dry fit only). Use your new measuring tools to check everything you can at this stage, just to make sure the parts you have are of a good standard /with tolerances/fit! By that stage, however long it takes, you will know which parts to buy next.
I wouldn't bother swapping internals while you do this n that... Get ya new engine built , itll be ready whenever you are... Get that going while ou fix the other engine, re use the sip road and rear hub and hopefully the same gear selector (youd need to check that it will be the same one)..

I forgot about those lml engines,,complete n brand new for just a few £££s!
I can highly recommend a cheap crank and drive shaft puller, from india for £20...(i dont think id wait for their xmas sales tho')!!
Time is on your side...you may end up picking up something so cheap it may sway you into going this/that direction..
Ill be following anyway!

[sime66]

Not many votes in favour of my little tuned-build scheme then. Fair enough, maybe I will just do a simple build for a spare to give me the peace of mind to get on with non-urgent jobs that need doing to the DR engine. Timescale TBA; no hurry, no pressure. Not really keen on building less of an engine to save money though; maybe something will crop up while I’m gathering bits. I’ll definitely be happier tweaking if I have a decent spare to fall back on in case of mishap or delay. Also maybe the £500 can go on my licence instead, which had crossed my mind before grabbing these casings - there's no 'use-by' date on them though, and I'm glad I've got them whatever I do with them..

Maybe in the spring I’ll just measure and raise DR barrel as planned, and then get on with full licence. pxguru, you have grabbed my curiosity again with another of your little clues; you just chucked in reference to a ‘better head’ (normally reserved for Saturday nights here); it’s on my list to ask; vespasco has talked about it a few times too…………(I’m often just fighting to keep up with you two, and when I do catch up, you shoot off onto something else, which keeps me on my toes anyway).

Got the old-P vs EFL gearbox question covered, vespasco; I’ve got the old box coming with the cases, and I’m looking into an option to buy an EFL box elsewhere – price will dictate decision. (Buying EFL box vs buying old-P selector box and extra arseache). I’ve been chewing this all over for a while before going public with it since I got the casings.

You’re right; I’ve got to build something, rude not to, and I ain’t got to decide what its going to be tonight, and I can stay flexible for now whilst getting the other engine bits together. Glad I picked some brains though. Plenty to get on with before then anyway as you say.

Gaz, video No5 might be before you joined our happy gang; that is my first engine start-up and ride after the complete rebuild in the summer, and my wheelies in that were due to some interesting clutch characteristics first encountered and since resolved after much head scratching and reworking (look again; you’ll see I had it facing the wall when I kicked it over the first time in case it went off on its own) – there’s plenty of old threads that cover it extensively if you enjoy the fuller-bodied-thread!

It’s probably already clear, but how vespasco described his Pinasco: “Is quite a torquey tourer, not too revvy,” Is far more on my wavelength that gaz’s: “good for thrashing and mile munching”.
Congratulations, by the way gaz, but when your kids are having kids you might find your perspective mellowing a bit.

[henri]

dont get cold feet now sime ,the bug has bit an theres only 1 cure for a case of tunetiitiss an thats a radical "walletectomy" an yes it is a painful/invasive as it sounds .
first thing firsts , get/build borrow a engine cradle ,makes a build loads easier an ya can run ya new engine out the scoot,if ya cover postage n gas/wire costs i'll knock 1 up for ya, an also makes the engine usefull as sculpture/ornament/bedside lamp base when its not in scoot ,
right nitty-gritty, ali versus iron barrels , both have plus points ,an as vespaco said if your careful n confident the better heat dissapation of a ali barrel outways the extra expense of any re-plating if it seizes, if ya planning on porting work go iron but if you can find a ali/nicasil barrel with the port timings you desire go with that, horses for courses ,
an theres sum validity n gaz's opinion ,keep ya dr180 an sip pipe , but if developing another tuned lump to slip in for high days n holidays you'll only get the best bang for ya buck if its matched to a decent pipe, 1 exhaust cant do 2 jobs , an as gaz so elegantly says "nothin compares to when ya laccy-band goes twang" or words to that effect .
an as for the p versus efl box , both will fit in cases ,p runs a xmas tree in bushes in the cases ,the efl 2 circlip shaft box runs in the cases on the clutch side n a steel top hat bush in fly side on the tree , ya can switch between em but its got to be all efl or p ,ya cant mix trees n loose gears , i think i'd look at cosa gears , rarer n hard to get ,but ask anybody who's ridden one ,ugly but better in all other ways, i'm not sure of the ratios but having ridden a stock 125 n been impressed am doing the research to find the trick, will post ya any results i get , H

[sime66]

Not cold feet at all, H; just accepting that Design ‘A’ needs a bit of work before Issuing For Approval. I am building an engine in autumn 2015; just don’t know what yet. But you and Gaz are talking about an engine that I simply do not want to build or run; no matter how much knicker elastic it has it still ain’t comfy. I will build an engine that I do want for the reasons previously stated; not just the liariest I can build – I have made that point several times now. I’ll go away and have a bit of a better research and think, maybe come back and be more specific with my questions when I have a better plan, and in the meantime collect ordinary engine bits for the build that aren’t decision-dependant. a) I’m not keen on building bog-standard other than some value in having it as a spare so I can tweak the DR without being off the road, b) I can see the valid point made above that there’s not much point building the same again, c) but I don’t want a big grunting revvy job that’s going to look nasty and spend more time in bits than on the road either – there’s my current point to work from. I don’t want my exhaust to do two jobs at all; there is only one job I want from it and I’ve said that it isn’t hugely different from what it does now, so I will see what raising the barrel does to the pleasure in my ride whilst planning too. Even if that proves to be a good improvement, as I’m sure it will, spending this year planning and next autumn/winter building is something I want to do – not just for the finished engine, but doing it – as a planned off-season exercise, not the strip and repair and missing the summer I did before. You brushed on a couple of things that got my interest though.

· I know I can do a complete swap for an EFL gearbox, christmas tree, primary; that is my intention if this EFL box is cheap enough to warrant it, mainly so as to use the EFL-type selector box and not have to mess about with gears when I swap engines. Your description of how the box sits in the cases did not clarify what I thought was a simple matter when I read: “p runs a xmas tree in bushes in the cases ,the efl 2 circlip shaft box runs in the cases on the clutch side n a steel top hat bush in fly side on the tree”. , which left me thinking I’d be best just to have a bit of a look when I get them side-by-side; thanks. I think you’re saying there’s a difference in how the Christmas tree sits – I wasn’t aware there was; I’ll look at some exploded drawings later too if I remember. They fit if swapped as a whole, is the main thing.
· I’m also keen to find the source of Manufacturer’s Technical Design Data that will give me their timings that you and vespasco refer to; I haven’t yet come across that sort of detail anywhere, and it would be very handy. The reason this has got my attention is vespasco’s reference to “Check out the crank inlet durations on the cranks too.. Different manufacturers use different timings..its not just bout choosing 'any' or 'the strongest' or 'best named branded' long stroke, get one suited best to your kit/carb/pipe.”, and then your: “if you can find a ali/nicasil barrel with the port timings you desire go with that”. I’ve been reading mainly supplier’s info with general descriptions; what it does, fits and what mods are required, some forum feedback/advice on opinions and experiences of set-ups, and some previous advice to me on things I didn't do before, not proper design data with timings; if it exists I’ll make it my goal to find it – I haven’t yet though, the best I’ve found so far for barrels is port maps on scootercentre.com for some kits but not all, from which I could calculate timings. Inlet timings is an area I need to spend some time on too, anyway.

The quest for knowledge continues; for me it’s as much about the research, learning and applying some learning, as it is about scratching the itch – the extended shed-dwelling, tweaking and repairing blown-up engines is not the aspect of this that appeals to me. I want to know enough to plan and do a good, reliable job, and then enjoy it on the road, not keep going back to it – I want to be worrying about my paint fading in the bright Cornish seaside sun, and the salty sea breeze messing with my rust-work, not whether I’m going to blow up on the way home, or have a scooter gathering dust and grime in a shed, or cat’s p*sh in a garden; that’s what my 2015 is about………. (and 10 fingernails)

I’ve got a feel now for where my initial thinking was off-target; Plan B to follow………………….

(When we’ve had a bit of a rest after the last two marathons, who reckons the next topic should be exhausts in January? That or cylinder heads. - Not just yet though, eh).

[pxguru]

I just can't get past how expensive this is going to be to end up with the same type of engine. Once the new engine is in the old one will never go anywhere again.

How about this for a plan? Your EFL engine has just been rebuilt and is in good condition. If you must have two engines economically re build/re condition the new one, as it is, as a standard 150 with a few tweeks to make it go properly (will probably perform as good as your DR goes now, if we help you with some Dremel practice on the 150 barrel). Then do all the work on the EFL engine and DR kit. DR kits can really be tuned well and reliably if just looking for a touring set up. Apart from the tuning you would only need something like a 60mm crank, seals, gaskets, fly bearing, banded basket and a proper head. Wouldn't cost so much and after you could sell the 150. Probably break even.
Properly tuned and set up engines last pretty well.
My approx. 33bhp high rpm Polossi has many of the same parts as your 150 and has not been split for 2 seasons and done about 8,000 miles. With the type of engine you are after you won't need a spare

[vespasco]

Haha!

Last night i started write something along the lines of guru ji... Such as, you almost have the motor you want aleady....but then didnt post it as i know you dont want to do any more work on your efl engine until next year....yet.... Im still with guruji, or i was upto the point when he said it would need a stroker... I was thinking if its only a top end rebuild (for the 1mm packer) then its a weekend job...(one ive got to do soon too).
your clutch should be fine?! i think you bought a nice one already?

Plan C - buy a running plug n play motor, anything, put up with it for a few weeks/months, until you swap out the crank etc on the dr..fit the dr, sell the other motor potentially for the same price... In the meantime you can still carry on collecting parts for your engine project.

As mentioned, once your 'tuned' engine is in, it wont come out very often, especially if you build it right, which with all the advice on here n there im sure youll do a fine job...
(Mine didnt last too long due to me thrashing it everywhere i possibly could/user error. All the main components were still ok (- clutch)!

I think your sip road will do what you want it to do too.,and achieve the torques n speeds you want.it can do your 2 jobs...it works on your mildly tuned motor (probably not to its full potential) and theres more to have from it too, enough for your needs I'd say. How well the sip road would work with the stroker set up guruji mentioned, etc im not actually sure...

Good luck with finding the manufacturers specs!! Some are out there, on sip/scooter centre pages, here n there...its worth having a look at them, when youre looking at kits and cranks and data. If yoj can find them!! I went for a pinasco mainly because of peoples opinions, which were the 'torqueiest' most stock-like kit for 200 but a little tricky to get right. i like a challenge! Other reasons were its ali, everyone else has malossi and was cheap on ebay

The gearbox, normally cheaper and easier to find if you buy as a complete set,which as h rightly pointed out, youre gonna need anyway,then swap out any indivual gears you want later/separately. Its also possible to swap the primary shafts to suit your cases...youd have to measure what you have to be sure tho'.. You can actually buy the flyside steel top hats too!
Main drive shaft/crux etc will still be the same for cosa or px

Id be asking myself,,,, what would happen if i packed a 1mm gasket under the cylinder without porting, or swapping the crank, or head etc...would that alone give me what i desired?
If thats not too desirable, id be looking at stroker cranks for the dr and using that motor, forever!!
Ok. Probably not all what you wanted to hear but its worth saying?!

[sime66]

I haven't read yours yet, vespasco, but I was also in the process of replying in agreement with the clear common sense of our guru, so I'll post that 'cos I've already written it, then see what yours says, but yes; quick simple build, don't waste money, get me a spare (for my own peace of mind and to keep me on the road if nothing else), have a practice with that barrel, then concentrate my efforts on getting the DR tip-top..............

Yes pxguru; that’s pretty much the plan from what you said yesterday, and made sense then, except for the just building a 150 bit, but I reckon I can justify that from point of view of cost saving, and as a practice for the DR engine barrel work, so:
1. Knock up a budget 150, but with some proper attention/practice on barrel; to make myself a spare and have a bit of a practice; maybe ongoing through year, rather than later on, whack in scooter late 2015.
2. Do repair jobs on DR casings.
3. Do some tuning barrel mods on DR engine, which with a 60mm crank and ‘proper’ head will be enough of an improvement to satisfy my modest needs.
4. Possibly sell the 150 build to get some money back, and because my DR is going to be a splendid effort from point of view of performance and reliability, because it is only a modest tune, which is all I want, so I don’t need to keep a spare in a cupboard for years (yes I do read and remember what’s been written before)
I’m happy with that; I get to do my build, don’t waste loads of money, and end up with a bit of a tune to my DR, which I’m pretty happy with anyway. – That makes perfect sense to me.

Just one hitch – haven’t got crank, barrel, piston or head with this new one; wasn’t bothered – didn’t expect to want to use them. So maybe continue with plan, but see if anything comes up for top-end; I have the crank from my previous build, which I replaced although several of you said I could re-use it. So, I'll just get on with gathering bits for now..........

[sime66]

Vespasco, your stuff quickly:
Don’t much like plan C – I’ve got half an engine now and I want to build it; it’s my spare, (until I’m happy I don’t need one) and I’ll know what’s in it. Don’t really want 2 ½; that would be greedy!
Time is no pressure, don’t need to bring any plans forward unless I want to; the DR new-tune will be slow, steady, and tip-top quality with good advice, good care, and plenty of time to do it because I’ll still be on the road with the spare engine I’ve built. Therefore once back in it won’t need to keep coming out, as you say.
If the SIP Road is coping with your Pinasco 225, it’s surely going to cope with a few barrel mods on a DR180, with or without the crank – I think the crank will be a goer; I’ve read back through what pxguru has written in my threads before and it is a recurring message that has now got through. I absolutely do not want a big ugly pipe; the SIP Road 2 will be adequate.
Scouring Net for info is something I’m happy to do of a quiet evening, when in the mood, but can be a drag when you’re looking for something specific – I’ll keep routing out info; see what I can find.
I know where there is a 2nd hand complete EFL gearbox and I’ve asked if it's available, when I have the price I’ll decide whether to use it or the Old-P that comes with the casings; I have a choice of two complete gearboxes, maybe with some loose cog mods as well; nothing complicated about the gearbox issue at all. I still don’t know what these top-hats are though, and you’ve mentioned them too, so it wasn’t H having a mind-wander – I’ll suss it out; it’s gone to top of my curiosity list now. If you just mean the bit that goes in the flyside casing, I hadn’t given it a thought before; just reused it. – they are different between old-P and EFL, is that it?
Since writing a couple of days ago, I’ve read a few bad stories about bad (tight) tolerances causing seizes on Pinascos, which has given me cause for caution. It’s not an issue now anyway because I’m no longer looking for a kit upgrade, and I suppose that comes down to what you said before about measuring everything, not just hoping it fits.
Yes, I’m tempted to do a quick barrel measure and probably bung a 1mm in, just to see; it’s all reversible in any case. Lets see how the mood takes me early next year – bound to be needing to tweak by then! I’m mainly looking forward to just enjoying it though.
Yes I reckon I bought a good Cosa Clutch. Conflicting advice at the time about the banding, so was swayed off it, but got a 16 rivet SIP jobby, put an extra set of springs in and got the reinforced circlip. It’s a SIP 93401000(basket) & 93182000(circlip), newfren corks and plates, and 21t thingumy-bob. I’m not averse to the idea of usng that one in new P150 and getting a better (banded) one, but that was the one I settled on before after petty thorough investigation – not as flash as your beast though! (I know I don't need two clutches, and leaving a clutch for ages not used in a spare engine is probably not a good idea; just saying I'm not stuck with what I have - don't think I'll need to, but I don't mind changing it). It's only money!

I’m pretty happy; I said I’d change my mind if you lot told me I was barking up the wrong tree – this makes better sense; nothing is set in stone, but it’s a good plan.

Last word tonight:
Just had a quick squizz on SIP; still none the wiser about this top-hat difference:
(Not important at all at this stage, but I still think they're the same for 125/150; 80 is different though).

[vespasco]

I think youve got it sussed now sime.
Sounds like a plan
Dont worry too much about the top hat thingy... You may not even need it. Wait until you get your cases and have a measure. Its all possible anyway. Just dont use a piece of brass gas pipe instead of the steel top hat (this is what i found in my engine once after giving it to a 'professional' to blue print!!! F'in cowboy shouldnt be allowed to advertise his services. Ive never had much luck with vespa mechanics! (Thats why i prefer to diy)

What ya going to build Gaz??! Will we see a a screaming monster coming over the hill??!!!

[henri]

the point i was trying to make bout the tree bushes is , you can run either box in your cases ,a 1 circlip shaft or the 2 circlip efl one , the holes in casings are the same just the bushes differ, that steel top hat is for a efl box ,at other end the shaft sits staight into cases ,on earlier shafts theres a brass bush .
an ya lucky vespaco to of got a gas pipe bush, the last px engine i bought that had been "tuned" was bushed with insulating tape ,guess it was only way a 8" wheels tree n 10" output shaft would mesh, plus the loose gears were a mix-up of 8 n 10 aswell,
an i see what ya getting at now sime an understand your opposition to going full-on with a lairy pipe ,am thinking your probably on a good plan an should get a nice ridable reliable engine at the end , H

[pxguru]

Glad you like the plan you know it makes sense!
Should be able to find some barrel on ebay. better if it has a piston but if it hasnt got a piston you can rebore it with a new one after porting practice. Fine to use that old crank. Do you have the back hub with the spare engine?

[sime66]

We are all agreed then; a much wiser approach to do a thorough, technical exercise of tuning the DR I have, (and am pretty happy with anyway), using all the stuff we’ve been thrashing out and learning, rather than carelessly bolting some flash bits together for a quick thrill, like we all did as kids anyway.
Also, because I personally have to have the belt and braces, I’ll knock up a quick, cheap build for a spare first (as I’ve half-started the job anyway), to tide me over so the DR can be out for as long as it takes to do a proper job. This is a good plan, thanks chaps.

Henri and vespasco: I think this top hat business will be clearer to me when I have the two trees side by side, so probably best now to wait until then unless to satisfy our curiosity, and expand our knowledge, so I’m happy to continue with it if you want to explain what I’m missing. I do not question what you say (A SIP exploded drawing does not out-trump a lifetime in a shed), but last night, thinking that’s what you meant (about the hat(EFL)and bush(Old-P)), I went looking for the differences on the SIP exploded drawings, and I couldn’t find one. The part I showed above is listed for all 125 and 150 PXs, Old-P and EFL (where I’ve underlined in red). I know the sort of bush you mean though because I found one, but it was listed for PX80 (and 100). As I say, it will be clear when I have them in my grubby hands, so no need to thrash it out until then really. Here’s the other one, which I think you mean, but I can’t find reference to an Old-P 125/150 needing it – I will look again though:



pxguru: I’ve got my eye out for barrel etc now, ironically there’s a Pinasco 180 just cropped up on Facebook (£80 – condition, just a few words and photos), but I didn’t want to cloud the issue again by mentioning it, or buying a dog. It won’t be difficult to find a barrel and bits.
I dug that crank out and cleaned the threads I’d gone ‘a bit too medieval’ on earlier today too.
The quick answer about the hub is that I don’t have a hub for the 150 build. The long answer is I want to get at least a back plate, ideally a hub too, if I can locate one in the next few months; I’m not sure whether or not they would swap. Also that I believe, without full investigation yet, that the hub I’ll need is determined by the diameter and the location of the seal, I see there are old and new hubs, but I’m not sure if the gearbox or the casings is what decides which I need. The threads and splines are the same aren’t they? The hub on my ‘83 now is for a frame that takes an external 30-47-6 seal, I’ll know the other shortly, and the gearbox soon enough, but the new Old-P casings do also have the external seal like my casings. If it’s determined by the gearbox it’s another reason to use the EFL gearbox.
When I did my rebuild before, my conclusion then was that engine was a bit of a crossover with an EFL gearbox in an older set of casings, which is what the Old-P might well end up being too. Sorry if that sounds a bit vague; still reading it up, so that’s all I have on that subject for now.