VNA to VBB restauration

[boyki007]

Hi all,



I own a 1958 VNA Vespa on 1963 VBB papers. It is an import from Indonesia.

At the moment I bought te Vespa I had no knowledge at all about what to buy and where to go.

As I learned later on, import Vespa's have a bad reputation on restauration.

As I did not like the color, I made the decision to strip the bike entirely and do an entire restauration myself.

Than I can be absolutely shure everything is done correctly.



During the process of stripping I bounced on some issues and i hope you can help me out here.

1st problem: When I tried to pull the back brake cable it got jammed and I can not move it anymore. I already tried heating and wd40 but unfortunately no luck. Pulling it from the other side is not an option as the cable already is in the tube. Are there any tips or trickx to remove the cable without cutting in the tube or frame?



2nd problem: How do I remove the steering lock? It does not fit through the hole above? Or is there a bush that needs to be knocked out?



3rd problem: The vespa has a VNA fork without speedo and is on 8 inch wheels which I would like to keep. Which parts do I need to purchase in order to fit the head and speedo of a VBB model?



Already a great thanks from my side.



Regards

[henri]

brake cables an gear 1's too are a bit of a begger on vba/vbb ,they run through steel tubes inside the frame an where they come out at rear is a rust spot par excellance , ive had to resort to cutting them out before , first a patience soak in wd40 an lots of heat an molegrips n brute force ,i'd try an feed the cable back in an trim the end to a straight unkinked bit ,as where the trunnions crush the cable makes them hard to pull through outers ,
if not possible running a drill bit up the cable an can clear the tube allowing you to pull it forward ,but will give probs on trying to feed a new inner in , you can make it easy by taping a bit of string to old inner an switching it to new ,to guide it back through.
the lock comes out after the outer chrome cover is unscrewed ,i'm not sure if you need to remove the top bearing race or not ,but do remember its a wriggley tight fit ,
an a vbb headset will fit on the vba forks with no mods ,so a headset/speedo an levers n headlight , but as the vba youve got didnt have a speedo the fork leg might not have a hole drilled for the cable to run up, its on the forward face of leg/tube just above the bottom edge of mudgaurd ,have a look an if theres a hole there its a straight swap, if no hole its either drill one ,at a angle =not easy, or you'll have to swap the fork leg aswell , H

[boyki007]

Nov 15, 2014 11:23:27 GMT henri said:

brake cables an gear 1's too are a bit of a begger on vba/vbb ,they run through steel tubes inside the frame an where they come out at rear is a rust spot par excellance , ive had to resort to cutting them out before , first a patience soak in wd40 an lots of heat an molegrips n brute force ,i'd try an feed the cable back in an trim the end to a straight unkinked bit ,as where the trunnions crush the cable makes them hard to pull through outers ,
if not possible running a drill bit up the cable an can clear the tube allowing you to pull it forward ,but will give probs on trying to feed a new inner in , you can make it easy by taping a bit of string to old inner an switching it to new ,to guide it back through.
the lock comes out after the outer chrome cover is unscrewed ,i'm not sure if you need to remove the top bearing race or not ,but do remember its a wriggley tight fit ,
an a vbb headset will fit on the vba forks with no mods ,so a headset/speedo an levers n headlight , but as the vba youve got didnt have a speedo the fork leg might not have a hole drilled for the cable to run up, its on the forward face of leg/tube just above the bottom edge of mudgaurd ,have a look an if theres a hole there its a straight swap, if no hole its either drill one ,at a angle =not easy, or you'll have to swap the fork leg aswell , H

Hi Henry,

Thanks for your answer.
Feeding the cable back in is unfortunately no option as the cable really got stuck.
What kind of heat did you use? I already tried to heat it with the help of a paint remover tool for approx 2 mins combined with WD40 but had no luck.
I also tried to drill the cable up from the rear of frame, but the cable is to far in the tube.
I am considering to cut the tube open on the inside where the gas tank is located and hopefully a can reach the other side of the cable.

About the lock, I will need to remove the top bearing race, but how will I do that? Shall I also replace the one on the bottom?


Regarding the fork, I was thinking in buying only the suspension arm as shown below from sip scooter.
www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/suspension+arm+810+front+_78723000
This suspension arm should fit and already has the hole drilled.
Or could I be wrong about this? As I am not an expert at all learning through the process of restauration.

Best regards.

[bryno]

The VNA brake cable is different to the VBB, inside the frame tube is just the inner cable the outer cable runs from the hole in the back of the frame back to the brake, it is a short run.

That cable you have fitted looks the wrong size that is probably why it is stuck, again the VNA cable tube is thinner than VBB and if the inner is too thick, it will get stuck.

Do not cut the tubes unless that is you only option, again unlike the VBB as there is no inner cable running the full length of the tube and no cable stop at the brake pedal end you are going to struggle to get a new inner cable working smoothly if you have a bit of the tube missing.

The steering lock will not come out with the forks in, you have to remove that ring as already said, but then the lock pushes into the fork tube to come out, you can't take it out without removing the forks.

[bryno]

Have you removed the short outer cable from the brake hub end so you can pull the cable forward and backwards?

[henri]

the suspension arm or link is only needed if your present one doesnt have a speedo drive ,i dont know vba's aswell as bryno but thought the speedo less 1's still have the drive just its blanked off ,piaggio was producing economy models by just leaving off the expensive bits ,like trim/chrome/speedo's etc.so am guessing that along with the link you will need a axle with the gear teeth on it to drive the speedo,
the fork leg is what i was meaning when talking of a hole for speedo cable ,does yours have one where i described ,
to remove the steering bearing races a long bar or broomstick is used as a drift to knock them out ,hitting around the edge evenly or they will tilt an jam in.i use a bit of concrete reinforcing re-bar ive put a bend at 4" from end an cut the end to be "square" ,it fits on the lip better that way,
new races arent that expensive aswell as bearings so you might aswell replace top an bottom ones ,
as for heat ,i start with a heat gun an if that wont get it hot enough ive a blow torch an to get it red hot ive a bigger torch which runs off a big gas bottle .
H

[boyki007]

The cable came out finally.
I used loads of WD40 at the back and at the front I wrapped the remains of the cable to steel bar.
That way I could pull with both hands.
I guess I'll make sure to buy a VNA rear brake cable then. :-)

About the fork, mine does not have the speedo hole at all so I need to buy a complete new one.
To make things easier, I ordered an entire rebuild VBB fork online in Italy.

The lock also came out. From the bottom :-).
Turns out that the opening below is larger than above.
Question: As the bearing races still look pretty good, can't I just leave them in there?

Thanks in advance.

[henri]

if theres absolutely no sign of damage/rust you can leave the races in , its best to replace the bearings any chance you get so still get new ones.
where does the front brake cable run out of the leg , when i got my super it didnt have a speedo cable an they had run the brake cable through the leg where speedo should of come out, instead of right down at the bottom , some vespa's have 2 holes n some 1 , if theres only 1 its for the speedo, if your vba has no holes it probs like that from factory, have to ask bryno as ive never owned a vba but i think he's 2 ,1 he restored . H

[bryno]

Good news on the cable, worth looking at what outer it has, as said earlier the outer on a VNA is supposed to stop just inside the hole where it enters the back of the frame, so it's only a short run, check there is a stop for the outer cable in there.

Not aware that the VNA had no speedo, the ones I have seen do have, a unique 2 part headset and a rectangular speedo, VBA and VBB have a one piece headset and the shell shape speedo, what headset do you have?

You could just buy VBA or VBB forks and the hub with the speedo drive, would be pretty easy to find given lots of people bin them for 10" forks. Be aware though that there are 2 different wheel stud sizes, VNA should have IIRC M8 threads and VBB have M10, so you want the one that matches your rear hub bolts (or swap hubs over).

I'd change the top and bottom races and bearings, they are really cheap.

[henri]

ive not seen one but have read about "austerity " models ,cheaper ones with no bling an i thought a plastic blanking plate where speedo should be ,depending on local markets/law , this is a indonesian 1 so dont know much about them,an seems to be a mismatch of chassis n papers aswell, so well could be a scoot built from parts to sell/export , a picture of the headset would help identify it . H

[boyki007]

Nov 17, 2014 19:03:20 GMT henri said:

if theres absolutely no sign of damage/rust you can leave the races in , its best to replace the bearings any chance you get so still get new ones.
where does the front brake cable run out of the leg , when i got my super it didnt have a speedo cable an they had run the brake cable through the leg where speedo should of come out, instead of right down at the bottom , some vespa's have 2 holes n some 1 , if theres only 1 its for the speedo, if your vba has no holes it probs like that from factory, have to ask bryno as ive never owned a vba but i think he's 2 ,1 he restored . H

hi Henry,

I have honestly no idea where the brake cable runs out. I just pulled it without paying attention...
I know that the speedo cable should run through te fork at the bottom. Perhaps this is also the case for the brake cable?

[boyki007]

Nov 17, 2014 22:39:36 GMT bryno said:

Good news on the cable, worth looking at what outer it has, as said earlier the outer on a VNA is supposed to stop just inside the hole where it enters the back of the frame, so it's only a short run, check there is a stop for the outer cable in there.

Not aware that the VNA had no speedo, the ones I have seen do have, a unique 2 part headset and a rectangular speedo, VBA and VBB have a one piece headset and the shell shape speedo, what headset do you have?

You could just buy VBA or VBB forks and the hub with the speedo drive, would be pretty easy to find given lots of people bin them for 10" forks. Be aware though that there are 2 different wheel stud sizes, VNA should have IIRC M8 threads and VBB have M10, so you want the one that matches your rear hub bolts (or swap hubs over).

I'd change the top and bottom races and bearings, they are really cheap.

Hi Bryno,

The cable had no outer at all and I do not see a stop also.
My headset also comes in 2 parts and has a green light on the top , but it has no speedo.
Therefore I already purchased a second hand headset which comes from a vbb.
I was able to purchase a completely refurbished fork from Italy.

Thanks for the tip about the nuts as I was not aware. I still have my old rusty nuts. I'll fit them first and see what size they are.

I also thought about changing both races, but given the fact they are painted (old paint) too they are quite difficult to knock out.

[bryno]

Cool that headset and forks will be fine, do you have the speedo drive in the hub?

Re the brake, the tube on yours looks like the correct VNA one, i.e it is simply an open piece of tubing, if that's the case then you need the 'stop' in the tube at the back of the frame or you won't get the brake working.

The stop should be just inside the hole at the back of the frame, it allows the outer cable to go through to the stop, then reduces to a hole small enough for just the inner cable to go through and run through the tube.

That 'stop' will be there unless the frame has been messed with, if it is missing you'll need to improvise a solution to stop the outer cable from pulling right through the tube.

[henri]

ya could maybe use a "tophat" cable end from other cables to be a cable stop in tube , H

[boyki007]

That could be tricky...
I tried to drill the cable out from the back.
Maybe a washer will help?
From which side should I gide the new cable in?

[henri]

feed the inner in through the pedal end ,reach under where tank sits an feed it out through tube ,on a vbb this is when ya feed outer up inner ,wiggle it through rear tube an push it forward til it seats up near pedal, from bryno's description of vna cables i guess you put the shorter outer on an seat it in cable stop in rear tube .
if your drilling has got rid of cable stop ,either fit in a cable adjuster or top hat to replace it , the stop is there to stop outer creeping into frame an exposing/un-adjusting the cable tension , so it doesnt need to be "heavy enginneering" ,soldered in or if lucky the right size cable adjuster will screw into whats left of the tube ,i reckon its worth a look in your nearest motorcycle shop at lever-end cable adjusters ,if scoot 1's arent big enough . H

[cleeve919]

Nov 15, 2014 21:15:56 GMT bryno said:

The VNA brake cable is different to the VBB, inside the frame tube is just the inner cable the outer cable runs from the hole in the back of the frame back to the brake, it is a short run.

That cable you have fitted looks the wrong size that is probably why it is stuck, again the VNA cable tube is thinner than VBB and if the inner is too thick, it will get stuck.

Do not cut the tubes unless that is you only option, again unlike the VBB as there is no inner cable running the full length of the tube and no cable stop at the brake pedal end you are going to struggle to get a new inner cable working smoothly if you have a bit of the tube missing.

The steering lock will not come out with the forks in, you have to remove that ring as already said, but then the lock pushes into the fork tube to come out, you can't take it out without removing the forks.

Hi Bryno,
 I am new to this forum and have just started restoring a 1962 Douglas Sportique. It was a wreck and for sentimental reasons I am trying to bring it back to life.

I am currently welding the central frame section but due to severe corrosion don't know the detail of the cable exits at the back of the tunnel. Found this post which looks helpful. Can you advise how the tube for the rear brake cable terminates at the back? Is it just welded to the bottom part of the wheelarch mudguard with a hole for the inner to go through? Does the outer cable just butt onto this hole on the external (wheelarch) side? Also, how does the larger tube for the gear cables and clutch cable terminate at the back? Mine had approx a 1 inch hole in the centre of the backplate. Does it just pass through the hole? Mine had a corroded end but the cables had a rubber tube over them closer to the engine. 

Best regards