Pulling gear cables through body.

[sime66]

One of those questions to avoid doing it wrong and making the job worse:

- Ongoing from changing the clutch; I’m changing the gear cables, and I’m going to have to change the outers, because one of them won’t take a new inner, so that decision is made for me.
- At both ends I have the outers ready to pull; very stiff at some pinch-point or other within the scooter, and in a sleeve from selector box, through scooter, probably all the way to under headset (can’t see sleeve from top).
- As I can only get one inner through, I’m going to have to pull the new outers through as a pair; I can’t see another option.

Questions:
1. I think it’s obvious that I won’t pull the new outers through the existing sleeve, so should I try to pull a sleeved pair through, or lose the sleeve and just pull two loose outers?
2. There is much more room to get at the outers from back end; will it work if I try to pull forwards through headset, pulling sleeve through as well, or do I need to pull up some slack (if I even can?), and try to pull through towards selector box. The only ‘How-Tos’ I’ve seen are pulling a clutch cable backwards, which looked pretty simple.
3. I think I’m supposed to use piano wire or an over length throttle cable; is that the best way?

This might sound a daft question after the more involved stuff I’ve tackled, but this has the makings of a balls-up if I don’t have a decent plan before I start.

I’m confident that this is the last hurdle, but she ain’t giving up, and letting me ride, without a fight……..

Here's a pic of each end in case it helps to understand:
(Not up to my usual standard - was supposed to be having a long test ride in morning sun, not taking photos and back up here ordering more stuff!)


(I know cable is wrong way - just left it there to be sure I have one inner still through)


(out of focus, but I think it shows enough)


**Just had a thought: I think I can cut enough of the knackered outer off to get a new inner through it, so I reckon I'll try that first unless I hear otherwise. That will mean cutting the black outer sleeve back though, and will leave fewer options afterwards if I still can't get an inner through.**
.

[henri]

if you cut em down you need to either save the end cap or go to local "bycycle repair man" an get new 1, as without them the outers unravel an un-adjust emselfs ,you can get around not having a crimping tool by careful plier work, it wont look pretty but will work, some p series (cant remember which years,or maybe t5's) have a stupid clip holding gear pair together up by the brake block ,this catches on the brake block making threading new outers difficult , dropping the brake block helps as ya can get a hand into the frame an guide em through easier , rather than pianio wire i use the flexi-rods that hold net curtains up to draw cables through, ya need about 6foot ,if you drop brake block careful how much ya bend/twist the cable to get it where ya can pull the pin an release it from block, as its thick if ya put a tight bend in it ,it will stay kinked an cause a sticky pedal on re-assembly,
i know its a "ball-ache" but there so compactley designed you quite often have to dismantle 1 bit just to get to another,remember ya exhaust bolt,its always tempting to try an struggle on,thinking ya saving time/effort, but mostly ya take longer or end up having to do the extra work anyway ,if you do try trimming em down ya cant take much off before there too short ,an will tighten/loosen as the bars turn , so dont forget to check em from lock to lock ,ok, H

[sime66]

I’m not trying to trim down to save the outer, I’m thinking about trying to trim down to get an inner through to pull new outer. (Just bought 5M picture wire).
I understand there might be a clip inside, and am pretty happy to take brake lever out and have a look, and even the tank if i need to. (Done those before).
The method of pulling a new outer I’ve seen is to put a xx long inner or picture wire through both and pull the new one through as you pull the old one out. That was for clutch; do you think that won’t work for gear cables – either together or one at a time? Even if I find this clip and remove it?
I used curtain flex before to get some cables through, but lack of space in headset would mean removing these outers first, which would cut my options down. – That’s the main thing I’m trying to avoid (not making it more difficult for myself by jumping in).
I’m going to get the cables ordered and go and have another look at it.
Thanks Henri

[sime66]

Here’s a quick update; leaving it now until stuff arrives:

- By cutting a short length of outer from near the selector box, I was able to get the picture wire through the bad outer, so a long inner will now also go through.
- Both cables are fixed together, and jamming somewhere; it feels like they would come out backwards, but not forwards. Something is preventing them moving separately, or all the way forwards.
- I’ve had the rear brake lever off and I can see the cables, but no clip, which must be higher up near the underside of headset.
- It seems I’d have to pull the cables down, out of headset to get at whatever is jamming them, before pulling them out completely. Don’t really want to do that until I have new cables to pull through at same time, so waiting now for cables before tackling it.
- If I can’t pull a new one (or pair) through as I pull these out, I’ll have to start afresh with a curtain flex. 

I think I’ve got my head round it now, but am still very grateful for any input that might prevent a balls-up.

[rab]

Pull backwards attach a wire to the top end so you have a feeder to go back up .it takes patiants and a lot of wiggeling about stay calm walk away and come back once calm is a good suggestion when doung them

[sime66]

Thanks Rab,
I reckon I have a plan now.
It seems the trick with the gear cables is to do them both at once, backwards as you say:


(nicked from modern vespa)

Possibly, at first, just far enough down to the brake pedal hole to discover and deal with whatever (a clip?) is stopping them moving freely.
If that doesn’t work I’ll be at a point where I have to start fishing with curtain wire anyway, but that seems avoidable.
Patience, as you say, with these poxy end-jobs, when you think you’ve already fininshed!
I’ll post when the job is done to record the answer for anyone reading later………..

[vespasco]

Patience is the key.
Theres a bracing plate in the moulded chassis near the brake pedal that makes changing cables a pita.
The 'twist n shout' method eventually works for me. But more twisting and less shouting.
And i also recall the cable clamp too.

Try. Fail. Beer. (Other highs are available). Try again.
Success!

Its been a while since ive changed a cable but remember feeding a new inner from the head then feeding a new outer from the gear selector end.
But i have patience. (Or have been lucky that i was in a nice sunny area at the time).
I actually 'upgraded' my cables. I think its an upgrade anyway. After enough previous gear cable failures over the years on different vespas I now use the thiicker 8.5mm clutch cables. (Stock gear cables are. 6.5mm). I only have to carry one type of cable in my washbag full of tools and spares too. I had to drill out the pulley to suit. Oil them cables well. (If theyre not the teflon ones)!

[henri]

as rab said patience/wiggling an always attach a wire/bit of string to end of cable before it disappears into frame ,then with a sawing action an twisting you can work it past any obstructions/catches , an if it is one with a clip ,remove an throw as far as ya can an dont watch were it lands or you'll be tempted to re-use/save it , h

[vespasco]

Now i remember more. When I fed a new inner in, at the same i time pulled the old one out, with the cables butted up to each other. So the outer always has an inner in!

When i made a loom i used loom wiring to pull the wires and cables through the frame, cut twice as long.

[henri]

an on a px if cable seems to be caught at bar ends pop off ya horncast ,piaggio badge pops of ,lever with a fine screwdriver/knife on the right side as you face the scoot,mudgaurd between legs, 1 phillips screw behind badge an two going forwards inside glovebox about 2/3rds down an horncast is off ,carefully tho as the bottom 2 lugs aint that strong,an ya can get fingertips to where the cables run,
when putting it back ,put on loose an turn bars lock to lock an make sure front brake flexi-pipe is routing right an not catching/rubbing on bottom edge ,then holding horncast to leggys nip up the screws ,without stressing the lugs to much, h

[sime66]

It's all under control chaps.

I've already had the horncast off and I can see bare outers at the back; the obstruction is between the brake pedal hole, which is also bare outers, and where they enter the stem riser (for want of a better description).

I do not want to pull the cables down to find it until I have the new ones attached, which won't be until Postie brings them.

This is what I'm going to do:
1) At headset end, attach new outers to ends of old outers with picture wire through both and insulation tape over join.
2) Feed down from front, and pull back from rear. - old attached to new, and both at once because they are attached to each other somewhere.
3) When I’ve gone about 6-12 inches I should see what the obstruction is (probably a clip); I will deal with that when I find it.
4) As I’m pulling from rear I will have the cut-back black sleeve jamming at the hole where I’ve removed the grommet; I expect to be able to encourage this through pretty easily and slip it off, or through out of the way.
5) As effectively I’ve just got double-length outers, they should then pull through until I’ve got new outers poking through both ends.
6) I’ll remove the old outers and picture wire, replace with new shroud and grommet at rear, and fit new inners, then fit barrels in pulleys at headset.
7) Then I can get on with replacing and setting up my selector box, which is tight and clean and shiny, ‘cos I’ve given it a good seeing to.

As I’ve got the headset off I’m going to do the clutch cable and front brake (just done the back brake when I put the engine back in).

It’s under control – waiting for stuff – will get it done this weekend (please let it be dry)…………………

[henri]

if not use a brolly ,you'll get wet riding it when fixed anyway , h

[sime66]

Right Chaps,
Cables pulled through, selector box and clutch set-up well enough to be happy that they’re all good (will stretch now, so didn’t spend too much time getting too precise with gear shifter position).
ALL GEARS SMOOTH
NO CLUTCH DRAG

It went pretty much as the plan of action listed above, with a couple of bits of extra info (below)

Things to note for future:

- There is indeed a clip holding cables together, so they will only pull backwards, and they must be pulled as a pair (If it’s the first time they’ve been replaced).
- By threading picture wire through old and new outers, AND wrapping butted ends of outers individually, and then as a pair, with insulation tape it was possible pull from rear and push from front WITHOUT needing access via horncover or brake pedal. (Belt and braces, but it worked)
- Putting the top-hats back on the inners is much easier with headlight off.

That’s about it really. Photobucket site is down at the moment, so I’ve done a Flikr slideshow for now, will tidy it up and put some scooter porn here later.

SLIDESHOW:
www.flickr.com/photos/124362908@N02/sets/72157645450101763/
(I greased it up after taking the photos)

That’s it – I’m done – where’s the bleedin’ sunshine gone…………………….

[henri]

bugger the sun,get wet n ride it ya begger ,youve earned a seaside ice cream an the rain will wash ya hands for ya afterwards ,simples, well happy for ya ,get them miles done an cables bedded in an adjusted just right ,am looking forward to seeing ya on news having a "ruck" (roll around the floor) on ya local prom with a middle aged fat guy in a "hogclub" leather an dodgy tats/haircut. margate revisited 50 years on.
off topic tho,but is it only me thats noticed that like audis have a tendency to turn there drivers into c**ks ,harleys seem to do it to all of there "born again biker" riders even worse , showing my predujices again i know but this 1 is well justified , "factory" an "custom" 2 words that shouldnt be in the same sentence unless used derogatory an followed by spitting/bad words ya mum dont like.
any way ,still well happy for ya, am just out on my bike to see if i can find a hog to bait,probably not as they dont like getting there shiny s**theaps wet, marys, Henri

[sime66]

Sod that; I just got it done before my al freso workshop was washed out:



I've grabbed bags and boxes of tools from outside, that need drying up and putting where I can find them next time. Need to get scooter toolbox sorted and tidy too - might be needing a tweak as I go.........................

[sime66]

As rain's stopped play for an hour (we'll call it a coffee break, so I don't get called a Jessy), Here's the photos, now that Photobucket is working again:

Metal Clip


My Join


Top waiting for fitting properly


Headlight out to do TopHats




Grommet and Sleeve


Using Neutral mark under handlebars




Sorted!!


I had a ride up and down the lane a couple of times, went through all my gears, stopping in neutral, slow riding using fine-clutch control, wheelies! (not really), kicking over, sitting in 1st gear using clutch - everything as it should be. -  It just goes past 4th on shifter a bit, but I really don't care about that for now.
I also tested all my electrics to make sure I hadn't buggered anything by pulling cables. -  even the speedo slipped back in, and is working!
I do still need to restock my toolbox, fit flyscreen and mirrors (only one each side - road-sensible, not Modded-up), check brakes and tyres (it's been standing a while), and generally make sure I'm ready for the road again.
I prefer early Sunday anyway, and there's less chance of encountering the types you mention at the sort of hour of morning I'm talking about! (Only deer, rabbits and foxes to dodge).
I actually find most of the old bikers round here very pleasant - more so than the scooterists in many cases. -  I'll still slap one for you though (then run away).
A**ehole drivers come in all shapes and sizes - whether I'm pedestrian, cyclist or scootering; they all think I'm a bleedin' target!!
There's a silly young c**ck here, just got a plastic scooter, revving it up and down out the front; sound like he's strangling it to do 30 - he's gonna get a telling before the weekend's out too!

Has someone wound you up this morning, H?

[henri]

nah,not wound up, cept my ongoing feud with god ,only sat on bike to go to town ,get a chook for roasting tommorrow an it lashed it down ,went back in for waterproof leggys came out an its sunny,
my beef about hogclubs is a long time thing,as a "old" biker/scooterists ive no probs with born again mods/scooterboys/scratchers an classic bike/car owners ,except mg drivers coz they dont wave to other classics only mg's, there all out there on 2 wheels/old motors an share the difficulty/dangers that brings ,but any idiot having his mid-life crisis an buying a "factory custom" joining a pretend bike gang an prob having some bad ink on his skin aswell,then looking down on other bikers coz they didnt buy a agricultural machine built for dead straight american distance highways ,thats sold as a loss-leader,the profit for h&d comes from membership an shiny add ons/customising???.
ridiculous, imagine a scooter sold pre-moded by piaggio an the pee-taking its rider would get turning up at a rally ,or a factory custom cut-down in matt-black,hilarious . i'm an ex-dispatch jockey , 3 years an over 400,000miles ,an the rules always been if a faster rider comes up in ya mirror you give him the line/road , most riders still do it,even racer wannabees scratchers as its taught at there track days (fantasy camps really for big kids), but not hog riders who seem to think we all owe homage to there shiny tracters an get quite prissy when ya overtake em,specially in traffic on a scoot,my personal favourite sunday afternoon entertainment,had 1 chase me 2 weeks ago for about 2 miles ,an when i pulled over took my helmet off an threw me gloves down,to have a frank exchange of views ,he suddenly realised he wasnt really a "bad ass biker" an pulled a u turn nearly getting t-boned an ran off,i had to go an calm down the mother n 2 kids who's quick reactions saved his life.seen him twice since but he recognised the bike/clothes an ran n hid ,he dont know my scoots tho ,so will have that frank exchange 1 day ,
sorry this rant is well off topic ,but ya did ask, an hopefully its passed a rainy 20 minutes reading the diatribe ,so if suns out now ,what ya waiting for,show that auto kid how its done an wheelie past 1 handed making rude signs with other hand, but carefully of ya new clutch eh. H

[sime66]

Love it!
Get it off your chest, H

[vespasco]

How's that scooter of yours sime???
Sounds like you've got it all sorted??!!!
Congrats

[sime66]

She’s a little darlin’.
Done 100km since yesterday, and nothing to worry about.
To be honest, I really want to have a break now from working on it all the time.
There’s a few little jobs to sort before MOT in September; nothing that I can’t easily do in a few weeks time when I’m in the mood again.
Will also have to deal with rust as next non-essential priority. Want to do it before winter, but cannot currently be arsed.
But I’m scooting again, and happy, and it's still summer.
Thanks for asking, and thanks everyone for all the advice too.

[rab]

good on ye sime get on her and and ride until it breaks or rains too heavy enjoy the beast its what its for

[sbwnik]

I've always found that the easiest way to change any cable is to remove te old one first and not bugger about with trying to feed one down using the old one. Start at the horn cover, pop it over the weld in the chassis and then out the back.
Thread the inner through from the handlebars, into the outer where is sticks out behind the horncover, then pull it all tight.

[sime66]

Fair enough, but this was how I’d read it up, seen it done and planned it, it worked very well, and it is how I’d tackle it again next time.

[henri]

second time is always easyier ,as youve got a idea/picture in your head of where the cable should run ,an practice def makes every cable you do easyier than last 1, an a vespa lives or dies by its cables ,so you'll def get the practice in eventually ,h