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Post by sime66 on May 7, 2014 15:43:04 GMT
Cheers H, appreciate the effort when you've got dodgy net. Always enjoy your particular slant on a problem too. I'm going to get medieval, wallop and destroy its ass! (but only if I have to )
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Post by sbwnik on May 7, 2014 19:21:29 GMT
Christ, and I thought I got ghetto sometimes!
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Post by vespasco on May 7, 2014 22:50:59 GMT
I guess its too late now but for future reference,
You really only get 1 or 2 goes at getting those damn castelled nuts off. And if you do and the tool slipped, then buy a new nut (maybe the cosa conversion as mentioned).
The difficult bit is preventing the tool from slipping off over the top of the nut. Therefore you need to apply maximum down force on that (maybe not so perfect) tool to stop it slipping off before you even attempt to turn the nut. This is why its easier with the engine on its side. A torque wrench could help a lot too as you can concentrate your whole body weight on top of the tool if needed.
Hammer whacking cranks can't be good for them.
Be careful with the newer style cosa clutches as SIP have suggested that even the Piaggio baskets cannot be guaranteed to be of their normal good quality!!
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Post by henri on May 8, 2014 7:59:14 GMT
wacking the end of a bar on a nut on crank can only damage it or the conrod if you havent stopped crank rotating ,ive a 15mm bar for through little end an 2 soft wood blocks for cases/mouth to stop damage to the ali,trying to push tool on an turn it whilst holding clutch tool on is a team/octopus job.hitting 1 end of the crank to drive other end into a bearing is what disturbs there balance. sip arent the only 1's saying piaggio newer clutches are dross ,there made in china worse than india,on un-tuned engines at 30quid a pop i stick in 6 spring standards an swap at first sign of trouble.they always need checking/setting up first ,up to 150cc havent had a problem,but the 200cc are too much for the standard clutches really,there not up to the job. also some sip clutches are larger an can cause problems fitting,you need to buy a spacer for the cover,guess who makes/sells spacers,SIP.ages ago before being cured of tuneittiss have "banded"my own clutches .plain mild steel strap,heated bent round a drain pipe an tag-welded to basket .best to use like swcnic suggested the early p series clutch ,tho the greater cork area gives a sharper clutch take-up an action. the cure for "tuneittiss" might not be working anymore ,as i saw a cute little smallframe at the seafront on bank holiday an started itching/dreaming.at 6 2" i'll look like a "giraffe on a push bike" but at 60-70 mile a hour who will recognise me. H
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Post by sime66 on May 8, 2014 8:26:15 GMT
I’ll come to clutch selection later, and I really will be picking all your brains nearer the time, so have you’re discussion and let me know what you agree! It’s a 180cc, I’m too lardy for words, and my riding style might need calming down. I might also have just had a really bad clutch supplied - it lasted 700 miles. So far I’m getting the impression that a DIY banded mk1 clutch is the proper way to go, but I can’t do it myself, nor do I know anyone. I really can’t spend £200 on a clutch either, but the disposable option stinks too, if it’s going to leave me with this jammed nut again. Anyway, debate away chaps; I’ll join in later, I’ve got loads of hurdles before then………………
As far as my immediate challenge is concerned, I think I’m past the clutch nut tool stage. Yesterday’s joking aside, I do share your concern about whacking the con rod, but maybe I have been too gentle so far; I do not know. I have a blow torch now, and should get the con-rod holder today/tomorrow - I'll make a little wooden buffer, so I’m heating/cooling and tapping, and if that doesn’t work I’ll have to move onto drilling and tapping and splitting, and if that doesn’t work it’s the canal for it and get a bus to the pie shop in future.
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Post by sime66 on May 9, 2014 11:57:14 GMT
Maybe I should have got some hands-on help with this. I did say it wasn’t my strong point. The castle nut is off, but I think I went a bit too heavy handed with it. I tried hot and cold and tapping for a few hours, then thought I’d try drilling. It drilled quite easily, and I made another hole and split it, and continued until it came out in three parts. I’ve drilled too deep though, and into the crankshaft without realizing. Also, although I can still get a nut onto it, I’ve got some pretty flat threads in places. Is this crankshaft knackered? It might have been anyway, after the whacking, but if it is it might be time to have a rethink. (If it’s £150 for crank, £150 for clutch, £100 for seals and bearings, and another lump of cash for other bits and pieces then I’ll be looking for an engine I suppose, and maybe have this as a donor/project). Here’s some pics; think I’ve gone too far (preparing for a b*ll*cking):
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Post by glscoot on May 9, 2014 13:18:45 GMT
Yes, the crank has had it. you may be able to sell it on Vietnamese ebay.
If you decide to go down the rebuild, let me know. I have a crank, cosa clutch and a DR177 kit available (£150 + p&p), all second hand but it did come out of a working engine. What I will say your drive shaft & cogs are different from more modern PX & LML engines. If I remember correctly on yours there is only one shim and one cir clip and the oil seal is slightly different.
Count the teeth on the clutch and the teeth on the primary drive (large cog only)
Gary
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Post by sime66 on May 9, 2014 14:10:23 GMT
That’s knocked the wind out me sails then.
I think it’s time to pause for thought, and weigh up my options now.
I wouldn’t need the kit, but you could PM me price for crank & clutch if you like; might be the best option now. I’ll look at the cogs over the weekend – going to put it down for a bit.
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Post by pxguru on May 9, 2014 15:46:31 GMT
Firstly, not surprised when drills are involved. Don't beat yourself up, these things happen. I do reckon ideally it should be changed but with that kind of damage you could get away with it Its not a 40 bhp 225! And I've seen worse running. There is enough round surface to keep the clutch alignment and you havent knackered the thread at all. The engine will need to split it to wash the swarf out now anyway. In the time that takes to get the engine sorted, if you can find a cheap/used 60mm 150 crank, then its win, win Just out of interest, before you take the crank out. Lay the engine on its side and fill up the main bearing with petrol. Just to see how long it takes to leak through the main oil seal. Quicker than 20 to 30 seconds and your oil seal was gone.
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Post by sime66 on May 9, 2014 17:12:40 GMT
Was gonna beat myself up, but I’d probably do it wrong! It’s still holding petrol after 25 minutes; think it’s evaporating more than leaking, must be an hour now. It’s a 68 tooth primary. It’s a 21 tooth clutch. Regarding the engine; it’s a 1983 PX150E engine. My understanding is that it’s right on the cusp of the EFL changes – the gears are EFL (flat crux), but it might be that it isn’t all updated, I don't know enough to say. I have not seen inside this engine before either, last time it was split, it was by others, so that’s all I know for now. It's only money, and it's all learning - and I won't do that again!
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Post by sbwnik on May 9, 2014 20:58:55 GMT
You can't update only half the gearbox, so that's an EFL box all the way through. I'm with Mr Guru, that crank is usable (assuming that's the worst of it showing), as you've managed to skip the thread area that you'll be using, and only just drilled into the shaft. Let a grown up do it next time!
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Post by sime66 on May 10, 2014 8:35:14 GMT
I'm back out of the naughty corner. Will start carefully stripping the engine. When I've had a look inside, I'll have a better idea of budget for crank, clutch etc. Got options, but don't have to decide now.
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bsr65
High Number
Posts: 114
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Post by bsr65 on May 10, 2014 9:48:43 GMT
I know its too late but I think Guru's advice earlier in the thread about using leverage (car wheel nut telescopic tool) and getting a mate to press down on the clutch nut tool with his foot would have worked.
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Post by sime66 on May 10, 2014 10:32:05 GMT
I reckon you’re probably right, I'd probably gone past that option before I even took the engine out though, but no real harm done anyway. Also if it needs all that malarkey, then it means taking engine out to change a clutch, so I’ve decided to go for Cosa now. No more castle nuts. I made a bit of a pig’s ear of it this time, but no harm done, and I’ve learned a lot from the exercise. I'm happy enough, and at least I'm making my own mistakes now.
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Post by henri on May 10, 2014 10:44:24 GMT
hi,i would use that crank again ,as pxguru said the shaft where the clutch sits is still 95%there an round an the shoulder where most of damage is still there 50%,an the threads look good on the end,thats the most important bit.dont beat yaself up you got the nut off an moved the job along .blame if there is any ,is mine an others who said drill it an forgot it was ya first go an we should of remembered to say wrap tape round drill bit at the depth youve got to stop,the width off a clutch nut,sorry,ive been ripping engines since a nipper an learnt my lessons the hard way ,usually destroying expensive bits not always my own in the process.an assumed more mechanical/practical experience on your part,despite you declaring "clean hands".sorry,well you wont forget next time an hopefully neither will i. any way grovel over,back to crank .new woodruff key an a careful de-burring of the drill marks by needle file on there edges on the part of shaft the clutch sits on,an the vertical/sloped face at base of threads that washer/cage sits on .dont worry no power tools involved an the less metal removed the better.just feel with a fingertip for any sharp edges/swarf sticking up that will stop clutch or washer sitting true an tightening down right.you can polish out file marks with fine emery paper if you want but i wouldnt bother ,before filling stuff a rag in the opening to cases to stop fillings adding to shrapnel in box/cases.a good swill out with petrol/thinners an you could flush the box out 2-3 times an throw a new standard clutch on for now,at 30-35 quid wil get ya riding whilst saving pennys for a fancy cosa clutch .just no more wheelies from the lights eh,if modern tech like that has got that far west yet. any new clutch must be checked before fitting ,clutch compressor(threaded bar an 2 washers)compress clutch an shake,if plates are loose an move its good to go,if not small screwdriver an gently try an seperate the plates as they can stick together with the oil.an any clutch needs soaking in sae30 gearoil for 24 hours before fitting an make sure ends of circlip are in the groove an not in a gap. in the future swapping to a cosa clutch with a proper nut,not castle,is well worth it,either way i always use non-permanent thread lock on both clutch an flywheel nuts for safety sake ,an permanent on woodruff keys aswell just in case . all is not lost,theres always BEER. Henri
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Post by sime66 on May 10, 2014 12:51:12 GMT
Sneaky peek - for anyone NOT out in the sunshine enjoying their lovely scooters: I'm leaving it alone now, to have a read and go over the DVDs again tonight. Will start a new thread when I get on with it. Fair bit of sludge there, and flywheel seal/bearing looks dodgy to me. Just couldn't resist a quick look inside. No Wheelies any time soon, H.
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Post by sime66 on May 11, 2014 8:22:20 GMT
New thread started - 'PX150EFL Engine Strip for Inspection / Repair'
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