Headless exhaust swing arm bolt

[sime66]

Will it never end!

I’m in town this morning and my exhaust slips off – much to my embarrassment, but I slipped it back on, tightened it up and got to my destination.

On closer inspection I’ve noticed that the main bolt onto the swing arm has no head. It’s holding the exhaust on, but can’t be undone.

I was intending to take a look at my exhaust soon anyway, with a view to replacing it with the Sip Road 2, so I don’t mind butchering the Sito+, but how am I supposed to get the main bolt out of the captive nut when it has no head?
I Can't see how I'd get to it to cut the bolt.
Are there any old-hand tried and tested quick methods?

[sbwnik]

That sounds odd! Easiest answer is to get a long screw driver into the cage for the nut, and prise it open, and then see if the nut will pull the bolt through. I can't see how it's ever been mounted in the first place though.

[sime66]

I think the bolt head has sheared off, either by me banging around the pot-holed lanes, or by a mechanic over-tightening it and not telling me the head came off. (I mean the main bolt on the swing arm.)
I’ll get a better look at it in the next day or so to see how much headless bolt remains.
I’ve been having a bit of a look through other threads and forums, and I've seen left-hand drills and easy-out extractors, which seems doable if there’s room, but until I get a closer look I won’t know if it is necessary or if there’s even enough space to get a drill at it.
Hopefully a big screwdriver and some stress-relief will sort it, although I think the captive nut is welded onto the exhaust with the headless bolt now rusted into it.

[bryno]

They do fuse to the swingarm in time, even worse on Classics where the exhaust bolt thread is in the casing itself.

If no joy with the screwdriver I'd do is pop the engine bolt out, drop the engine down a bit and try to tap the bolt back out the other way.

If no good, I'd try a bit of localised heat on the alloy of the casing around the bolt, then a bigger hammer .

Drilling it as a last resort, that would take a while and some decent long bits..

[sime66]

Cheers chaps.

I’ll have a proper look over the next day or so, and see if I can get it off, or exactly what has happened.

Best I can explain for now is that the bolt isn’t fused to the swingarm, it’s free inside it, but it’s still screwed solid and/or fused onto the caged/welded nut on the exhaust. The exhaust is loose if I take the other bolt off the cylinder stub, but can’t be removed because I can’t remove the bolt because the head is sheared off. It wouldn’t need drilling out, just enough to get a LH thread in it if that makes sense?

[henri]

just had similar on a mates px,he asks me to weld exhaust as its "noisy",made my teeth ache riding it to garage ,when had a look there's no downpipe from stub to box ,claims he never heard it fall off as it was blowing already.head sheared straight off bolt when tried to undo it ,as it was scrap anyway just cut it off an unscrewed the now un-captive nut. heated an soaked in penetrating oil for 3 days (about 4 heats with blow-torch)an bolt still wouldnt shift .lucky there was enough decent thread on forward end to get new exhaust bolted on, cut captive nut off an use it to bolt up exhaust ,had to drop engine an replace it to get space ,an will have to again when exhaust needs changing .but scoots ready for road again.
left-hand drills work on broken studs as heat an vibration normally frees the broken bit enough the drill winds it out ,but there expensive,extractors in my experience rarely work an if snapped leave you having to have it spark-eroded out as there tougher than drills.
so the bad news is if ya want to save exhaust its drilling the old bolt out an cutting/welding the nut cage,you'll need good hss drills an a decent variable speed drill.as the drills get bigger the speed needs to get lower or you just blunt drills,have seen a "indian" bodge were theyed drilled loads of small (1mm)holes round bolt to get it out an stuck bigger bolt through ,also ya need 3 hands 2 for drill an 1 to spray cutting fluid/coolant on the work .hope that helps,Henri

[sime66]

Oh blimey! Cheers Henri.

[sbwnik]

If it's free, then it should just pull outwards using the nut once you've removed the rear wheel.
As for the bodge using holes, I've done that myself on a regular basis on seized bolts as it releases pressure on the bolt and limits the chance of it seizing next time (assuming you grease it)

[sbwnik]

If it's free, then it should just pull outwards using the nut once you've removed the rear wheel.
As for the bodge using holes, I've done that myself on a regular basis on seized bolts as it releases pressure on the bolt and limits the chance of it seizing next time (assuming you grease it)

[bryno]

if its the bolt shaft attached to the captive bolt, you could just prize open the captive cage on the exhaust and knock the bolt through from the front with the nut still on it, you'd need to drop the engine down to get to it though..

[sbwnik]

Just get mole grips on the nut Bryn

[bryno]

Not sure how Nic, if I read right, bolt head missing, shaft still screwed into the captive nut, so only way its going to come out is by knocking it back through the swing arm towards the frame after freeing the captive nut from the exhaust.. i think

[sime66]

You’re dead right Bryno, that’s how I see it.
Or if I’m lucky I’ll try to unscrew it first with LH drill or Easy-Out. – No harm done if I’m going to take the big tools to it anyway, and I’d much rather do that than drop engine, and I have a nasty feeling the captive nut is welded on a Sito+.
Anyway, going to check it out now…..

[henri]

if the head sheared of its likely the shaft is seized in the swinging arm ,the captive nut cage would give before bolt sheared otherwise ,its loads weaker.you can have a go by just undoing the lower shock bolt an dropping the engine but if bolt dont move with gentle persuasion (chinese number 2 screwdriver,the 1 pound 1)using a bigger hammer will probably just mushroom over the bolt shaft.its not much work to drop the lump an get proper access.if you have to drill it out it will probably be cheaper to get a mate/engineering shop to do it in a pillar drill than buy decent drills,you'll have to drain gear oil before putting it in the drill.its quite hard to get a drill to go straight down a bolt,they tend to want to wander of into softer ali arm.
the drill around bodge can be done with 3-4 holes as close to shaft in the ali spaced around it,then lashings of wd40/deisel/hot oil.give it time to soak in then heat as hot as ya dare ,as bolts scrap you can use freeze spray or keyboard cleaner (held upside down)to try an shrink it ,most bolts come out without drilling with patience/heat/soaking.
the indian bodge i refered to was drilled allround by the blind epilectic on his day off from frame-stamping,an needed the hole being trued by a oversize drill an a steel sleeve pressing into the swingin arm ,there was holes going all angles an i was worried about the strength of remaining arm.that was 3 years ago an put back with a st/steel bolt an loads of copper grease never had a problem getting exhaust off for annual clean/paint on a parked in sea air/ridden every day scoot. H

[bryno]

^ Apparently it's lose, not stuck in the swing arm, so knocking it out the back is easiest way..

Can't do this by just dropping the rear shock bolt, that won't give any more clearance, main engine bolt needs to come out and drop down a few inches at the front. Don't need to disconnect anything to do this so its not hard, just support the engine on something like a trolley jack/blocks of wood, a second pair of hands helps as the motor will tilt over and they are a bit of a pig to man handle.

If the captive nut is welded (isn't on a standard pipe, not sure on the Sito) then a bit of dremel action on the weld will sort it, the cages are pretty thin steel so you can prize it open to release the nut and knock out the bolt still attached to it.

[sime66]

You’re right again Henri, worse than I thought Bryno. I’ve done what I can for this morning:

· The head is sheared off, and not recently. I have no idea when or how, but I have a feeling I know a man who does.
· The exhaust is loose, but the bolt shaft is VERY solid in the swingarm.
· There is no access to the captive nut end, except to get some penetrating oil in there for now.
· I’ve loosened the main engine nut, but not knocked it through – the bolt is free and turning though.
· I’ve loosened the bottom shock bolt.
· I’ve tried freeing up the sheared exhaust bolt with center punch and big hammer, just to see if it is at all loose, and to get a pilot for trying the drill.
I can’t see the delicate tools working though, so it will probably have to be engine dropped/out and some proper drilling.
What I have to decide now is if I’m going to take the engine somewhere, or take the scooter complete somewhere before I do more harm than good. That will depend on who has the knowledge and the tools around here.
The mate who fitted the exhaust is the same mate who repeatedly told me he could find nothing wrong with the scooter, when I found the stator and CDI were knackered – we no longer do business, but I don’t really have a substitute either. I was hoping to tackle everything myself this year. I do not have workshop tools, or even a shed; this morning’s little shufti was in the garden in the rain. I reckon I could get the engine out (another credit to Sausage DVDs, bless him), but I’m not sure I’d be confident to replace it.

I’m just off to cry in my beer.

No, mustn’t grumble; I just need to have a think about the next step, which is
A) Be sure that it won’t unscrew, which is pretty certain already.
B) Find an engineering workshop and/or garage before deciding whether or not to take engine out myself. I suppose engine out and try hot and cold etc first.

[bryno]

Ahh bit of a pain..

Personally, I'd drop the engine out at this point (or at least drop the front down), then get the captive nut and exhaust off anyway you can and try a punch of the bolt from both ends, it may budge. Try the penetrating oil if you have time, but you'll need to remove the engine to give that a chance and prop the motor so you can make a pool of the oil around the bolt and give it time to work.

If you have one, a hot air gun to heat the casing around the bolt may help as the alloy will expand quicker than the steel bolt.

If that fails you can opt to drill as suggested, or find a garage with a bench press which may be able to press it out.

Whichever way, I'd say engine probably needs to come out, its not that hard..

You can give it a proper clean and inspection whilst out!

[sime66]

It’s not all bad.
I’ll get the engine out on the weekend (I’ll worry about putting it back later).
I’ll have a couple of days patiently soaking/heating/cooling/whacking/swearing; I'm in no hurry now it's buggered for a while.
After that I have two recommendations for the same bloke-with-big-tools on a local Industrial Estate here, who can sort me out.

I’ll get a SIP Road 2 to cheer meself up when it’s done.

Bryno, that’s proper Cornish tractor mud and cows**t, not just any old muck.
You’re right though, it is a good chance to give it some TLC!

[bryno]

Cool, one tip when dropping the motor out - leave the gear cables connected and remove the whole selector box (put it in 4th and you will be able to unhook it from the gear pushrod, its abit tight though)

Saves hours of messing around setting your gear cables up after, have fun!

[henri]

if ya can drop the engine an have a memory your well able to put it back in ,an with sausages dvd as ya late night scooter porn its a step by step.didnt know him personally but have heard he was magic if unconventionble. if 2 people are recommending the guy with the big boy tools an a bit of patience/heat/soaking dont work ,he sounds like ya best bet.the other guy prob meant he couldnt find anything wrong he could fix ,so said it was ok.do like bryno said about selector box an that will save ya half n hour an when ya re-connect the 2 stroke oil line throw some oil in petrol aswell ,2% as the pumps take a while to bleed up.
if ya worried about where things go ,take photo's or go old-skool an label with masking tape ,any problems ask the forum. cheers H
P.S before heating wash the ali ,the heat goes in better if not trying to get through a layer of caked on muck, an apart from my mates px exhaust have spent the last week welding up a sportique that had been restored (read,skim of filler/sheet of unpainted steel spot welded on/layer of underseal to cover the crime) then left in a leaky cowshed for 6-7 years .the smell of red-hot cow poop an gear oil/road grime is still following me around 3 baths later.
also somebody mentioned pressing the bolt out ,be careful as ali ages it gets brittle so unless the swingarm is well supported behind you can break the casting,drilling is the best option if its really stuck tight.had a bloke who didnt want to pay me 25quid to replace his mounts/bushes as "there's a big press at work i can do it in my lunchbreak" he ended up paying me 150 quid to weld the 2 bits of his swingingarm back together an i couldnt resist charging 25quid for the new mounts aswell. 
dont let my horror storys put you off,the guy was a know-it-all an wouldnt ask or listen ,you seem to be able to take advice , H

[sime66]

I feel pretty confident about getting the engine out. Good advice on here and some sessions watching dvds and I’m itching to crack on. I’ll watch them again and do a checklist to follow.
I am not so confident about putting it back together, but that’s me, and like loads of other jobs I’ve done for the first time with help from here, they seem much more straightforward once tackled, and it’s all good learning and less relying on others.
There will be plenty of photos, for me to use for reinstalling later, and to post here as I go.
I picked up before about the selector box, I tackled that recently when investigating what turned out to be cruciform and gear shift rod – Sausage did it like that too.
I haven’t got autolube, so one less job.
I’ll be buying some copper grease though!
In the background, my brain is cogitating a board or similar to roll the scooter onto, so I can tie her down with her bum in the air . It’s all a bit wobbly on bricks at present.
Thanks for input chaps; it’ll be fine, and I’ll do some updates……….

[sbwnik]

Bloody engine mounts go in with a length of threaded rod, a couple of bits of plate and a pair of nuts. A little grease to start them off, and done.

Bryn, even easier on the selecter box is to take the nuts off, pull the studs, and then twist past fourth gear on the grip, generally they pop straight off that way.

[bsr65]

did this job on a mates t5 a few weeks ago, if only piaggio made the hole 0.5mm bigger and used a stainless bolt this common problem would end. anyway to do the job if you could get the exhaust off that would help, back wheel off, scoot on its side mark the casing along the lenth of the exhaust bolt as a guide, centre punch the sheared bolt then start with 4mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10.1 high speed steel drills (good quality new one;s)with a good electric drill (bosch etc) you'll find the drill sits on the hub shaft and the hole will exit just to the side of the old bolt, junior hacksaw to get the remaining bolt off and jobs a good un. hth

[sime66]

Thanks bsr65.
I’m going to see this bloke, he may prefer it with engine in anyway.
I’ll also have a better idea of confidence in him and cost comparison against buying loads of drills once I’ve spoken to him.
Most here reckon ease of job and cost will justify engine removal, and I'm prepared to do that.
If he wants the engine, there are still a few things I’m going to try before taking it out, and if I do take it out there are things to try before taking it to him, but I don't want to make the job harder by starting a wonky hole or breaking anything in it.
When I do the pilot hole to try the LH drill and easy-outs I’ll get an idea of how doable drilling is in situ like you say, but it’s encouraging to know you did do it, so thanks for that.

[henri]

as bsr65 says you can drill in-situ but the hole does go slightly off- line,new exhaust will still fit an swinging arm is thick enough not to be badly weakened.most times when drilling steel out of ali castings the drill will try an wander off-line into the softer metal ,even with engine out unless its in a pillar drill with cases clamped well down.if your going to diy with a hand drill you've got to pull drill back out every 15 seconds or so to clear the swarf an fill the hole with coolant/cutting fluid .or your drills will overheat an blunt/burn out.machine mart sell coolant for about 12 quid a litre ,but it's just oil/water mixed ,with a dollop of detergent in to stop em seperating .a washing up bottle with 50/50 oil n water an some washing up liquid an a good shake gives you a homemade version,just giv a shake before using everytime as they will separate out quickly .an its best to use clean oil as its carcogenic that way an way worse with used oil .
decent left-hand drills are expensive ,ive some stashed in my drill collection ,but are really only for removing broken studs/bolts out of castings there threaded into .yours isnt threaded just seized with iron oxide an ali oxide combined ,as bsr65 said bigger hole/st steel bolt =no prob ,or even cheaper piaggio get a work experience wage slave an a pot of copper grease when assembling ,an put the extra 3 euro's cost on the scoots price ,i'd pay it .you'd be better off spending the cash for left handers on decent new drill bits or the local guy with big boy toys.not had a exhaust done but similar drilling jobs on other scoots/bikes have cost me from 5 to 15 quid ,depending on size hole an difficulty clamping it down square=time taken.i only use my local engineering firm when my bench mounted drill is to small to fit the job on ,an as the guy is a biker he does it fairly cheap as it makes a change from boring repetive batch work.
my bet is if he says i'll take the engine out himself ,he's just after the 2 hours pay to remove/replace it to bump upthe 10-20 quid for a quick drilling job he's going to ask ,30 quid will get ya a half decent set of drills an ya get to keep em for other jobs aswell. cheers henri

[sime66]

I’ve got it pretty well covered I think.

This bloke seems spot on. Totally happy for me to take the lump to him just to drill it out. I explained it and he understood. Quick job – £30/hr; hopefully ½ hour.
He’ll be good to know, and I can get my MOT done there too. He even had a tatty old small frame in the workshop. I have a good feeling about him, and I sorely need a garage/workshop for when I get out me depth.

Having said that, I have told him that I’m going to have a go myself – in situ, and if engine has to come out I’ll still have a go, as we discussed on here, before taking it to him. I’d already bought the Easy Outs and LH drill bit, so I might as well have a go. I don’t mind buying tools at all because I’m building up as I go. I think there’s a much better chance of me doing it once I can get at it from the captive nut end and/or get the exhaust off and soak both ends. I’m starting it tomorrow, and will take it there at the end of the week if I need him.
There's no problem as long as I don't make the job worse, so I'll be careful and quit if it's going tits-up.
I am much less concerned about taking the engine out now anyway. I’ve also knocked-up a splendid little ramp to lash the scooter to.

I’ve got a stainless bolt and copper grease for the new exhaust, and I understand now about keeping the bolt free during the year, and removing the new exhaust yearly to paint it and look after it. As the scooter is living outside now the underside will need more regular attention too, so I’ve got it in mind to give it more planned maintenance.
 


If I end up with - new exhaust, new job tackled under my belt, some new tools and a new Tame Mechanic, I’ll be quite happy.


I've got to be suited and booted today, but tomorrow I'll be getting me hands dirty.....................

[sbwnik]

It's how you learn, and there is no finer feeling than when it fires up (usually one kick after the one where you've started panicking about forgetting something!) and you know it's all your own work

[kru251]

Well, I have used these in the past (still have my set from 20 years ago) and a lot cheaper than a Mechanic plus you have 'em to use again!!

Screw extractors

Along with Plus Gas Aerosol (best of the penetrating fluids by far) you should get along OK with some heat applied too.

Plus Gas Aerosol

[sime66]

Started a new thread "Engine out.........."

[glscoot]

This happened to me a while ago, sanding disc on the grinder to get a flat surface, drilled small pilot hole added a bit of heat to the area and punched the bolt through. Exhasut knackered in the first place, so couldn't give a shiite about butchering the exhaust.

COPPER GREASE

COPPER GREASE

Worth putting on all the engine 'D' bolts. exhaust bolts.