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Post by pxguru on Dec 3, 2012 13:36:24 GMT
The Cosa clutch in my PX200 was slipping at the top of 4th. I had new plates and springs in it so guessed it needed stronger springs. I put in 8 heavy duty springs......still slipped but not as much. When I took it apart the centre rivets were all wobbly. I got a race SIP banded basket and fitted all 16 springs (8 standard and 8 heavy duty). Now it don't slip! ;D My problem is that during the last strip down the brass bush is now going black and the centre plate knackered (overheating) the clutch is not so heavy and works well. Has anyone had experience with these PK bearings? Are they any good? Or is there a better clutch set up? www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/pressure+plate+clutch+sip+_50050000 |
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Post by sbwnik on Dec 3, 2012 21:37:13 GMT
Is it a standard engine? If so, then a stock Cosa clutch is the answer. If it's tuned, and early clutch is better.
If the bush is black, something is slipping to cook it that badly, especially if the back plate is hammered too.
You're running SAE30?
I assume you rebuilt the cush drive (worn rivets) when you went to a banded clutch?
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Post by pxguru on Dec 4, 2012 5:10:12 GMT
Its a tuned 200. Cush drive is tight and both new bearings. Oil is SAE30 and level always ok. The clutch cable is only adjusted as tight as it needs to be so not to drag in gear. The bush went black in 500 miles since the last rebuild and looks like its been welding to the pressure plate. I'll order the PK pressure plate anyway, as I can use it on either clutch type. I don't want to give up on the Cosa clutch just yet. Are there any Cosa clutch plates I can buy that work with less springs?
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Post by sbwnik on Dec 4, 2012 21:39:36 GMT
I've not met a tuner yet who rates the Cosa clutch. They have a much smaller surface area, so less grip, so more likely to break away and slip, so more likely to over heat and burnout...
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Post by pxguru on Dec 5, 2012 4:32:45 GMT
It will all be fine.....it has a race basket. I dont want an old style clutch in my road scoot, they're just too heavy in London traffic. I was just hoping someone could recommend a decent set of plates  |
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Post by sbwnik on Dec 6, 2012 2:22:46 GMT
It's nothing to do with the basket, it's the size of the plates. The reason Cosa baskets need banding is because they're not as strong as a Mk1 clutch.
I used to run a standard Mk1 clutch in my heavily tuned 180, standard plates and springs handled the power easily, and it was a long way from standard. Easy enough to use round towns.
You could try carbon fibre plates, some people love them, others hate them though.
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bsr65
High Number
Posts: 114
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Post by bsr65 on Dec 6, 2012 8:36:01 GMT
the sip pressure plate in theory should work better than the brass one, but ive seen a video on youtube where the bearing had broken up and ended up in the gearbox. im with nic on the old 7 spring clutch, with standard springs they are soft enough to pull in, and they don't cost a fortune, and they work. the extra springs you have will be causing greater friction on the brass pressure plate, causing the blackness. I always buy piaggio plates but newfren and surflex are good as well.
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Post by pxguru on Dec 7, 2012 9:11:49 GMT
Thanks for the warning about the SIP pressure plate! As this clutch is nearly so close to being ok, I am going to have one last try with the Cosa clutch. I'll put in a the best set of plates I can find (Probably Newfren Carbon), with 16 standard springs. A new thrust washer and clutch arm too as they have both been in from when it was new. If this doesn't slip it should de clutch without the need to preload the cable so much and weld the bush. If it slips then its MK1 clutch and the Cosa cluch on the shelf for the next standard!
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Post by sbwnik on Dec 7, 2012 18:25:57 GMT
16 springs? Are you Popeye?  |
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Post by pxguru on Dec 9, 2012 10:58:22 GMT
Not nearly as heavy as a MK1 clutch with double springs and a 4 plate though.
With 8 XXL springs the Piaggio Cosa plates were still slipping. The 8 XXL plus 8 standard springs didnt slip. I'm ordering 16 medium springs with the carbon plates. I'll let you know how it goes...
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Post by joey on Dec 9, 2012 11:18:38 GMT
The only reason the brass plunger would be blackened is from being in constant contact with the pressure plate, I'd slacken off the cable meself??
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Post by pxguru on Dec 9, 2012 11:45:39 GMT
Thats exactly the problem! Slacken it off any and it drags! And I don't like any nasty noises coming from my brand new gear cogs!  |
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Post by sbwnik on Dec 9, 2012 12:49:47 GMT
Take your plates out and make sure they fit inside the jaws of a 17mm spanner. Any thicker and you'll possibly need to modify the basket slightly. I can't remember the depth - 18mm - but it's very hard to find any basket with the right depth cutouts for the tangs.
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Post by joey on Dec 10, 2012 8:59:45 GMT
Have you rebuilt it correctly?  ?? Not being funny kid but there is a specific order for the steels and if you put them in wrong they do tend to drag.......... First steel is the thick one, it is noticeably thicker than the other 3. Next is the plate that has a small notch cut out of the internal teeth, again it's quite easy to spot and it should be the only one with the notch. The other 2 don't matter. Sounds daft but I only found this out about 18 months ago after having dragging issues, no problems now. |
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bsr65
High Number
Posts: 114
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Post by bsr65 on Dec 10, 2012 9:24:53 GMT
I replaced my old style clutch with a cosa one bought from sip, (soaked the plates over night) but the clutched dragged badly, on inspection one of the steel plates was warped, a new plate solved the dragging. im sure iv'e read elsewhere the basket cutouts should be 21mm deep
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Post by pxguru on Dec 10, 2012 10:48:52 GMT
Thanks for the advice  I now have a few things to check. I am certain the thick plate is in 1st. I have never noticed the second one having a notch but will do it anyway. The basket is a SIP race one so I expect it to be deep enough but will measure to be sure (there was plenty of slack getting the big circlip in last time). While I have it to bits I will still fit newfren carbon plates and 16 XL springs. Check the steels are not buckled. New thrust washer, brass bush and little actuator arm. New big nut and blue thread lock as usual. Will let you know how it goes. Is not slipping and not dragging too much to ask! |
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Post by pxguru on Jan 17, 2013 20:19:25 GMT
Fitted the new clutch today and all the actuator parts. Put in NewFren carbon plates and 8 SIP XXL springs. Not tried on the road yet as its freezing cold. Running in the garage it feels much lighter to operate. It is a bit grabby as it starts to bite but will need to run it for a while to see how it settles down. As long as these plates don't slip at high speed I'll be happy!
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Post by kru251 on Jan 17, 2013 23:57:52 GMT
Well that sounds like a plan coming together.
There must be scooterists & bikers all over the UK who have done 'dark hours' rebuilds etc and now can't wait to get out and about but weather prevents this. I know I am. I've just been rigging up a piece of h/duty plastic 100mm pipework to duct exhaust gasses outside the garage so I can test engines etc in there without knocking myself out!!!!
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Post by sbwnik on Jan 18, 2013 21:54:59 GMT
Just ride it when the snow lifts |
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Post by kru251 on Jan 19, 2013 1:21:34 GMT
I wish....................................
Just know I'm going to get to the state where spring has sprung and sunshine abounds and I still have another 7-800 miles of running in still to do!!!
Plus need to get the Vespa mot'd & taxed and the Royal Enfield mot'd & taxed too. Well, you know how it gets; Busy!!!
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Post by sbwnik on Jan 19, 2013 2:30:40 GMT
Do 50 miles a week between now and then. An hour and a half a week, and you'll be a long way towards getting it done. That said, OCO is living in the garage this week. |
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Post by kru251 on Jan 19, 2013 14:21:53 GMT
Do 50 miles a week between now and then. An hour and a half a week, and you'll be a long way towards getting it done. Oh for the chance! My driveway on the 18th Jan!  |
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Post by Lucia on Jan 28, 2013 11:58:44 GMT
Lol. |
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I now have a few things to check. I am certain the thick plate is in 1st. I have never noticed the second one having a notch but will do it anyway. The basket is a SIP race one so I expect it to be deep enough but will measure to be sure (there was plenty of slack getting the big circlip in last time). While I have it to bits I will still fit newfren carbon plates and 16 XL springs. Check the steels are not buckled. New thrust washer, brass bush and little actuator arm. New big nut and blue thread lock as usual. Will let you know how it goes. Is not slipping and not dragging too much to ask!
