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Post by cbtpwrman on Jun 15, 2010 14:38:31 GMT
Hi All,
After a bit of advice, maybe ETS can help again!
Basically I have a 97 PX 200 E GS Lusso and and I am seriously considering removing the auto lube and going for self mix for the obvious reasons, I know alot agree with this and others don't but like I say its more peace of mind than anything else.
Whats the score with disconnecting the autolube, is it a case of drainging of the oild tank and removing it? Does the pump need to be removed, also I take it the connection hole to the carb needs blocking? Also does the adjuster at the back of th carb (goes through a rubber gromett) need removing/plugging also ?
Again many thanks for any help.
Stu
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ets
High Number
Posts: 113
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Post by ets on Jun 15, 2010 18:07:17 GMT
Why on earth you do that for? Keep the autolube clean and it will run millions of miles without problems. You can do that with a normal screwdriver, it takes minutes to sort out. The only (and only) problem you can get is the little conducts getting jammed, but if you clean it every few thousands of miles you wont even get to that point. I always do the job when I clean the carb. It is good norm to keep a close eye on that too. I clean the lot every sort of 3000 miles. Which is twice a year for me. This is a short guide I wrote for an italian dedicated website. It's in italian but the pictures themselves are quite descriptive. Btw, if you really must, it is more complicated than cleaning it. Not only is a must to take the pump out, also you need to close the casing shaft, you need a different shape carb box... it really is not worth! In fact I prefer BIG TIME having the mixer. I have three vespas with mixer and two without and let me tell you, it bothers me (...a little bit...) having to measure oil... ~Really, keep the mixer in good condition and it will last long more than any other engine components. |
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Post by scooterwarehouse on Jun 15, 2010 19:59:17 GMT
Sorry but the first thing i do is disconnect the Autolube system.To me it is a hidden mechanical method of which you are relying on not to go wrong but if it does it could put you on the floor or at the least wreck your engine.Self mixing you know the oil is going in.Autolube you hope the oil is going in.Why the gamble.Name me a two stroke racing motor bike that ever relied on Autolube system. Only last Sunday I stopped and helped a girl on a PX200 that had seized twice in 5 miles.Her oil pump had failed.We put 2 stroke into the tank and she did the rest of her journey safely. Definately not for me worse than Electric Starts !
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ets
High Number
Posts: 113
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Post by ets on Jun 15, 2010 20:10:05 GMT
I find your point of view too extreme.
Racing bike do not use autolube to save on wheight and cost, some had it for a short while, KTMs to name one and are regarded as the most reliable 2 stroke racing engines ever built. Some other brands had it as well, famous is the yamaha rd.
The mixer in a Vespa is a very simple mechanism, it's 3 cogs and a shaft and dont really do any hard work. Mantenaince is key, like anything else.
What exactly failed in the girl's pump?
In fact, I think she has an air leak somewhere and putting more oil in the tank is working as placebo covering it!
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Post by scooterwarehouse on Jun 15, 2010 20:38:38 GMT
My point is mixing into the tank is 100% failsafe.I've not known many fail but for me one is too many.I have seen the pump spindle teeth wear.I have seen teeth problems on the drive gear under the Clutch.I have seen the three screws on top of the well loose and oil being lost from there. I have seen the brass pipe bolt loose and oil being lost again.
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ets
High Number
Posts: 113
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Post by ets on Jun 16, 2010 6:23:38 GMT
They're all problems due to careless owners.
Teeth problems are due to lack of oil in the casing and loose screws.... ehm ... lack of screwdrivers in the tool box?
Vespas (and all vehicles in general) have to be mantained and all important parts have to be checked every few thousand miles. Carb cleaning being on top of the list, followed by oil change in the casing.
...and I believe pre-mixing is not as safe as we want to believe. You may get stuck one day having forgotten your nice bottle of oil at home, petrol is running out and the garage where you've stopped finished two stroke! It had happened to me!
Never mind that. If you put too much oil by mistake there is a serious risk of engine seize.
It sound like a paradox but think a minute.
Too much oil makes petrol heavier which in return will evaporate with more difficulty from the jets making the mixture leaner.... raising temperature...
It is a lot easier making a mistake mixing too much oil than having a fail (which I honestly have yet to see a solid proof in 20 years of working on engines) on a mixer.
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Post by scooterwarehouse on Jun 16, 2010 7:22:43 GMT
It's not rocket science mixing oil correctly using an oil measuring jug.Well within every riders capabilities.However from my own experience of being in the scooter business for over 40 years,a large percentage of riders wouldn't know where the carb was and couldn't care less.They will ride them until something goes wrong.I do agree that too much oil can seize the engine as well as too little oil.
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Post by cbtpwrman on Jun 16, 2010 7:56:45 GMT
ETS and SCOOTERWAREHOUSE, Many thanks for your replys, I seem to have started off an argument!!!! Basically I have owned the scoot 2 yrs, before this I rode a variety of motorbikes but not scoots so I am faurly new to the scene, my only experience with 2 Stroke engines was as a kid mucking around with crosser's. I am an Electrical/mechanical Engineer by trade (Army 21+ yrs) so I like to think I do have some mechanical knowledge.....LOL The reason I asked, started the thread was the few problems I have had since owning my Vespa, oil leaking from the oil tank (it was loose), oil leaking at the carb (again loose), oil leaking from the adjuster screw at he rear of the carb plus a slight seaze that I am 100% sure was due to lack of oil in the fuel. Many others I have spoken/corresponded with highly recomend removing the pump etc and go to self mix. Back to my original question, do you need to remove the pump and plug the hole with one of these www.sip-scootershop.com/DE/Products/78220000/Verschlusskapppe.aspx Or just block the hole in the carb and self mix? Again many thanks for your thoughts, replys. Stu |
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ets
High Number
Posts: 113
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Post by ets on Jun 16, 2010 8:06:33 GMT
;D I like to argue my point!
A loose carb means primarily an air leak, therefore a higher temperature and relative seize.
The loss of oil is secondary importance in your case.
But generally you've proved my point, loose here, loose there... that was the reason of your problems and not the mixer itself.
....but if you really must...
As I said in the message above.
You need to remove the spindle from the casing and plug the ramaining hole.
You need to remove the mixer's cog in the carb box, it would be best to swap the carb box for a non-mix one.
The hole in the carb itself is not that important, all you need is a non-mix gasket and the hole is blinded as a consequence.
...and do not forget to keep all the parts, you may wanto to go back on your steps at some point...
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Post by joey on Jun 17, 2010 8:49:10 GMT
This is just a personal opinion, get rid of the autolube! As ETS has so eloquently stated the Vespa premixing device is a simple little beast and in most cases it is bulletproof, however, the first indication that it is no longer working is generally 2 rather long skid marks, one on the road from your back wheel locking up and the other in your knickers! I had one let go on my old T5, and the other on my P2 when almost new and neither were down to lack of maintenance. The most common cause of failure (that I've come across,) is the spindle seizing in the casing through either lack of lubrication (as with the clutch it is only lubricated by splash from the gearbox,) or swarf, and it only takes a minute amount to lock the spindle, which builds up no matter how often you change your engine oil. As I say mate I'd lose it but the choice is yours. An extra 30 seconds at the pump adding your 2 stroke is not as bad as 3 hours on the side of the road waiting for the AA. The easiest way to block it off is to just cut your autolube pipe and push in a carb box or headset screw (both fit nicely,) and wait until you next strip the motor to remove the spindle and pump pinion. And Stu, for the advice that'll be a yellow handbag, that's what you bast**ds always used to charge me!!  |
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Post by joey on Jun 17, 2010 8:59:22 GMT
Just an afterthought mate, a standard P2 with autolube runs a 116, I know from a previous thread that you've gone up to a 118, which is standard for a non autolube, so if you do disconnect then you'll need to upjet again for the Sito.
And your timing............ as ETS stated the "A" mark is standard for the P2 (23 degrees,) and the "IT" mark is for 150/125 at 18 BTDC, but take them as a guide only, they can be wildly out. I strobed a Polini 207 a few weeks back that had been seriously pinking while set at the "IT" mark but was firing at 21 BTDC, so make sure you get it strobed to be double sure.
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Post by cbtpwrman on Jun 17, 2010 14:05:22 GMT
Joey, Many thanks for the advice, thats exactly why I wont to remove the autolube, like you say an extra 30 secs at the garage and peace of mind! You say I need to go up again on the main jet, will 120 suffice? As for the: www.supermarktcheck.de/img/product/picture/medium_ff71bc8d4cce0c35e394509f1fa727e6.jpgLOL, believe it or not I am currently stationed in Herford, I take it you are an Ex Squaddie yaself? I reguarly have a few Herfie's to wash down the Gyros and Chips! Again many thanks Joey. Stu |
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Post by joey on Jun 17, 2010 19:15:41 GMT
16 years QDG kid.
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Post by cbtpwrman on Jun 22, 2010 15:01:04 GMT
Nice one QDG
Bet you did pay out a few Herfie 10 packs working on Chieftan no doubt ?
Stu
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Post by joey on Jun 23, 2010 8:39:26 GMT
They were Recce when I joined mate so CVRT all the way, but yes many a handbag was purchased and handed over.
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Post by Rudi on Jun 24, 2010 7:14:28 GMT
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ets
High Number
Posts: 113
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Post by ets on Jun 25, 2010 17:08:32 GMT
Bizzarre, I tried clicking on the one posted by you and works, both with IE and Firefox  |
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Post by Rudi on Jun 26, 2010 6:53:07 GMT
it works now...
thanks
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