A2 license on a PX125 ...

[Devo McDuff]

This relates to my post in the practical test thread .... I took and failed my test today. Had gone to Harrogate yesterday to rent a T5 to qualify for the A2 license but when I got there it was out of commission so I was on a LML 125 (what a pile of junk!) which was upgraded to be capable of 60mph (and to therefore qualify for the A2) .... thankfully, the left rear indicator was playing up so today I was on a PX125 which had also had the jets upped (my knowledge of this consisting of what I've read on here!) to be capable of 60mph though I never got a chance to see if that was the case with the bloody awful headwinds and rain.

I know there has been a fair bit of discussion on what qualifies for the A2 on this forum in the past but my query is a bit different. Bare with me though, I have a habit of making these things long winded

I also have a PX125 with the instruction manual having the top speed down as 50mph, I've had it marginally above that but not at the magic 60mph ....

This might be a bad idea but it's crossed my mind so I'll see what you chaps (and chappettes) reckon.

Can't really afford another visit up there and the cost of renting a bike again any time soon so I was thinking of maybe booking the A2 test online and using my PX125 and saying it has also had the jets upped to make it capable of 60 ... the closest test centre to me is Sale in Manchester and I know the area a bit as I used to work there ... 60mph roads are few and far between and even if there are any the opportunity to get up to that speed probably wouldn't even present itself. Might be worth me studying the test routes in detail which amazingly, are available on the DSA website.

Is this idea a non starter?

The other option is to just take the A1 test on my own bike and put up with it being restricted, not ideal but at least I can lose the L-plates and carry pillions.

[Lan]

take A2 i took my test and failed on my px125 the only thing the eaminer aseked was is it a rev n go lol i said no its geared besides my px can do 65

[Spence]

There's a lot of inconsistency out there, with MOT testing centres, rider training academies and rider testing centres.

The only scooters you can legally take an A2 test on are the Vespa T5 and the LML125. This is because for an A2 your engine can't be bigger than a 125, but your bike must go faster than 60mph.

The T5 has a different fourth gear cog to the PX125, giving it a tiny bit more top end hence its eligibilty for the A2. The LML125, despite being a tinny heap of sh*t, also has this T5 fourth gear.

A training academy or testing centre worth its salt should know this, but because most of them are very motorcycle-biased, you often find yourself pointing out at pains to them the legality of Vespas for an A2.

However, you should always eventually be able to get a testing centre to accept the T5/LML argument if you state your case properly, because they'll have to go away and do their research if they don't know their subject well enough.

What I doubt you'll be able to do is persuade them that your PX125 is A2 legal, just because you might have fiddled about with the engine a bit.

[Lan]

you dont seem to understand when i took my test.. and failed, i did it on my px125 and that was for a A2 licence i dint need to convince the examiner he just took it as is

[Lucia]

Um - Lan, the examiner shouldn't have taken you out on the PX for the A2, the bike doesn't qualify

If you're in doubt, ring the DSA, confirm that a T5 and LML are acceptable for the A2 test (which is definitely is), get their name and date, write it on your paper you have to take along on the test day.

If the examiner is in doubt, ask him to ring the person you spoke to at the DSA - I had to do all this a few weeks before my test because I had a HUGE barney with my test school who refused to believe my T5 was ok for the A2, which ain't nice when you're a girly and they don't think you should be there in the first place!

I agree with Spence - best not to risk it - you never know what mood the examiner will be in on the day, and he probably hasn't got time to listen to your modified scoot story - you might get one who's deadly strict and knows his salt - not worth risking it with the amount of money you have to spend on these things.

[Devo McDuff]

It's definately a grey area this one with conflicting views. Like you say, seems to just depend on the test centre and the examiner. Round Harrogate way (and Lan's) a PX125 suped up seems to cut it, even though it legally shouldn't.

The more I think about it the more I don't want to do the A1 test, really don't want to have to mess about doing another test at a later date and jumping through whatever new hoops they come up with!

Not gonna risk trying it on, will just have to go to Harrogate again for it and hope for the sake of my wallet I don't bugger up again

Ta for the advice, has helped me make up my mind.

[Lan]

my px dont have a px badge on it , and i kno he shouldnt have but it dont bother me either way, dont do A1 they change the bike test next year and its going to be harder so you might aswel get the proper jobby while you still got the chance

[Spence]

devomcduff said:

It's definately a grey area this one with conflicting views. Like you say, seems to just depend on the test centre and the examiner. Round Harrogate way (and Lan's) a PX125 suped up seems to cut it, even though it legally shouldn't.

The more I think about it the more I don't want to do the A1 test, really don't want to have to mess about doing another test at a later date and jumping through whatever new hoops they come up with!

Not gonna risk trying it on, will just have to go to Harrogate again for it and hope for the sake of my wallet I don't bugger up again

Ta for the advice, has helped me make up my mind.

Sorry mate, but grey area it ain't. The law is as stated.

I had a PX125 when I took my test, so I got round it by having a week's worth of lessons on a 125cc motorbike, which I then took my test on. Saved hunting around for a T5 or an LML to borrow and taught me how to ride a motorcycle too.

[Devo McDuff]

It's a grey area if a lot of test centres are not adhering to the laws you mention Spence, as seems to be the case.

It's also a grey area as a lot of people say the laws are different from what you mentioned i.e. T5 and LML being the only legal bikes to take the test on.

What is in this month's scootering magazine (which is funnily enough written by the fella I used for the test!) is that to qualify for the A2, the bike must be between 120cc and 125cc and be capable of approx. 62 mph. Nothing about model of bike. A Dyno report can be produced to prove this.

I'm inclined to go with that version as it his livelihood after all and is printed in a reputable magazine which we all read and love

2nd time round I passed mine on an upgraded PX125 and getting the A2 was not a problem.

Is one that's certainly caused a fair whack of confusion for a lot of people though

[Spence]

What I'm saying is Devo, that the law states max engine capacity 125cc, max speed as per manufacturer's specifications 62mph.

If there's a legal loophole that allows altered engines to qualify with a dyno printout (although I'm not sure how you prove it relates to your particular scooter never having done it myself) then that's all well and good, and good luck to anyone that gets one past an examiner.

I'm presuming your comment about Scootering being a reputable source wasn't any sort of negative reflection on our reliability.

[Devo McDuff]

If it's out there working for people (as in my case and Lan's) it is good for it to be publicised. The law isn't always exactly gospel. I mean doesn't the law say you can still kill a Scotsman with a bow and arrow in York ... hmm, wonder if Gordon Brown has the quaint town on his schedule any time soon ;D

You're presuming right Spence, the comment could also have easily applied to this site (reputable, love, read) I merely meant that as it's Tommy Bee's source of income he has a much stronger motive than me, or most other people curious about this, to know the score ..... and if Scootering mag are willing to print it they must be behind it too, which carries a fair bit of weight in my opinion.

[marshie]

I have read the article in Scootering which is why I asked about the upgrade kit in the other topic. I think the guys that I took my CBT with know very little of scooters, and, when asked have not mentioned having to use a different machine (can't do the changing gear with foot thing) or that I need an upgrade kit. It seems that things are different all over the country, rightly or wrongly, as with the prices of the tests which are ''Think of a Number'', which I spoke about in another thread. Cheers for your comments guys most welcome!!

[Spence]

Like you I was pleased to see Tommy Bee's article Devo, because he must surely know what he's talking about. His advice on road positioning matches what I was taught during training by an ex police motorcycle rider; however it does contradict an article published in Scootering a few months ago on 'safer' riding written by Nik of SBW which I had my doubts about at the time. So it seems that Scootering may not always contain the gospel either.

Incidentally, are you able to reasearch which other towns or cities it's legal to fire a bow and arrow at Gordon Brown?

[llew]

4 people in my club have taken and passed the A2 (not the 125 only) on vespa PXs. When i took mine in October i used my T5 but the examiner didnt check the log book he just asked me if the scoot was capable of doing 62 MPH. He asked me this after i had completed the test. This was in the Rhyl test center. They dont seem to know the ins and outs, but if you book the A2 and the examiner knows his stuff you cant take the test and lose your money!

[joey]

Just a quick one
The T5 doesnot have a better top end due to the T5 4th, it's EXACTLY the same as a P125 4th, exactly the same gearbox!
It's the porting, 24mm carb and exhaust arrangement that gives the T5 better performance.
This excerpt is taken from the DfT guidance on motorcycle training;
Category A – the practical test must be taken on a bike of between 121cc and 125cc and capable of at least 100 km/h (approx. 62 mph). After passing the standard motorcycle practical test you will be restricted for two years to riding
a machine with a power output of up to 25kW and a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kW/kg.
After the two year period you may ride any bike.
A standard PX is not capable of this speed, not even with the most overenthusiastic speedo, and with the newer catalysed versions you are going to struggle to reach a genuine 50mph!
Also notice the quoted cc 121/125 so you are also precluded from using a kitted scoot.
Basically if you want to take your test without breaking the law then you need to do it on a T5 or LML.
Here's the full link for the Govt leaflet;
www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/drs/cyclingandmotorcycling/mopedsandmotorcyclesroutesto4640
Hope this helps or at least sets things straight.

[nat]

I checked my test sheet that I was issued with when I passed the test on my PX in 2004 and that says it's an 'A2 test'. On my actual licence it says on the motorcycle section '=<25KW. I assume the fella in the test centre made a mistake. If not I think I shouldn't be riding my 150 Sprint?!?!?!

[joey]

believe me mate your 150 Sprint isn't making anywhere near 25kW ;D
1 kW = 1,341022 bhp which means you're allowed to ride up to 33.5 bhp on an A2 license

[nat]

So it's based on horsepower rather than capacity?? Could you then technically ride a 150 (or even a 200) with just the CBT then?

[Spence]

No - the maximum engine size you're allowed to ride without passing a bike test is 125cc, regardless of power output.

If you pass an A2 you're restricted to 25kw or less for the first two years. As this DOES refer to power output, it more than includes a 200cc scooter. However, as motorbikes have a greater power output than scooters, an engine that size might exceed 25kw.

And thanks for sorting me out on the porting issue Joey. The only ports I know anything about are 10 year old tawny and ruby. And Ellesmere. ;D

[skrappey]

Someone has never tried to swap a T5 clutch for a PX, have they.?

[bryno]

joey said:

Just a quick one
The T5 doesnot have a better top end due to the T5 4th, it's EXACTLY the same as a P125 4th, exactly the same gearbox!
It's the porting, 24mm carb and exhaust arrangement that gives the T5 better performance.
This excerpt is taken from the DfT guidance on motorcycle training;
Category A – the practical test must be taken on a bike of between 121cc and 125cc and capable of at least 100 km/h (approx. 62 mph). After passing the standard motorcycle practical test you will be restricted for two years to riding
a machine with a power output of up to 25kW and a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kW/kg.
After the two year period you may ride any bike.
A standard PX is not capable of this speed, not even with the most overenthusiastic speedo, and with the newer catalysed versions you are going to struggle to reach a genuine 50mph!
Also notice the quoted cc 121/125 so you are also precluded from using a kitted scoot.
Basically if you want to take your test without breaking the law then you need to do it on a T5 or LML.
Here's the full link for the Govt leaflet;
www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/drs/cyclingandmotorcycling/mopedsandmotorcyclesroutesto4640
Hope this helps or at least sets things straight.

Slightly off topic but..

Yep, it's the fact the T5 is a 5 port engine which gives it the extra go, believe the LML is also 5 port..

You sure PX 4th gear is the same as T5? common conversion on a P200 is to fit a T5 4th cog, not a PX 4th cog so there must be a difference..

[mark]

Beware some of the new LML scooters have three port engines so might not come up to spec.

[skrappey]

A market for ex LML top ends after 180 conversion?

[joey]

Bryno, EFL gearbox is exactly the same as T5, the only difference was the size of the clutch and the cush drive set up.
PXE, PXEFL and T5 gearing all interchangeable.
It just became the norm for people to refer to a T5 4th when talking about downgearing a tuned P2.

[bryno]

I see, thanks

[Ironduke]

Hmm I read the Tommy Bee article and saw it took the editor to interject the comment about being able to use an LML. That raised my eyebrows because I took my test on a hired LML - from Tommy Bee! When I turned up for my test no questions were asked and I didn't expect any I suppose with the scooter covered with Tommy Bees logo's. He did a good course though, a whole day of instruction followed the next week with the test (next day would have been better but I was short notice), passed no problems.


Cheers

[Devo McDuff]

I've ridden that very bike, piece of junk IMHO, felt very tinny. I was pleased that the left rear indicator was out on the day of the test and he put me on a (upped!) PX.

Did you do the Harrogate route?

[Ironduke]

Yep it was a crap scooter but you'd find it difficult to break any speed limits on it. I had the pleasure of Bradford for my test, the only tricky bit was the estate with no junction markings at crossroads - never seen that before so I was glad he took me on the route before the test.

[Devo McDuff]

Ahh, the unmarked crossroads ... the nemesis of learner drivers/riders up an down the country. So my driving (car) instructor would tell me anyway.

[jinxed]

Ironduke and Devo, you both give Tommy Bee's the thumbs up then? Looking at doing my bike test soon and his name comes up a lot.