modpx
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Post by modpx on Jan 12, 2013 22:35:10 GMT
@guru...we have to talk about the compression ratio! I´m studying...
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Post by modpx on Jan 12, 2013 19:58:32 GMT
Well, that's good then. Trouble with 'urban myths is they perpetuate and become 'fact'! Cheers for clearing that up. I keep toying with the idea of tuning the PX200EFL I have, but with a tuned Lammie to contend with etc I have to look at the reason I bought the PX in the first place; reliability!!! Might whip the engine out & check the piston/barrel for potential new piston & rings refresh though and while it's apart...................NO, No, Nooooooooooooooooooooo LOL ahahahah stay away from it! Keep those panels close! Or the tuning virus might spread and infect your Vespa! ;D
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modpx
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Post by modpx on Jan 12, 2013 17:38:39 GMT
Is there something re. tuning Vespas about getting earlier crankcases 'cos the later one are weaker? I remember either hearing/reading about strengthening webs being removed/reduced and that enabled highly tuned Vespa to damage their 'cases. Fact? Urban myth? For what i know that is valid only for the very early P125X non electric models 77-81. On those they say you can "dig" more without making holes in them. The 150 cases are already considered weaker than those. So we're talking bout very few of them.. but i have never experienced it myself, only case i´ve drilled are mines (PX disc). i think it's bit of an exaggeration though.
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modpx
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Post by modpx on Jan 10, 2013 9:49:04 GMT
When I looked I found 4 different types of Pinasco head and some centre plug varients for the 213 and 225 also. I have never been a fan of Pinasco as they are just dont make a fast scooter. You do really need to check the squish and come up with a measurement to settle this. If you can prove the gap between the piston edge and the head is ok. Then this wasnt why it siezed. When you get your new piston? Are you for Polini or Malossi guru? The new Piston is on the way... should be coming by the end of this week (hopefully) but today i got the new upper ring (i accidentaly broke it while i pulled it out to clean the piston ) so in the meantime i can try to mount the old one and see if it's dead or it goes ...
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Post by modpx on Jan 10, 2013 1:52:25 GMT
Alrite, after many researches i came to the final conclusion that the my head is for longstroke 60. In the first the cylinder head of an italian guy from an italian Vespa forum who has the same cylinder head as mine, the model is vrh c60 (c60 stands for corsa60=longstroke60) and the code is 810. The second picture is the "vrh pro candela centrale" (central spark plug) version , it's still for longstroke and is code is A3610. The third pic instead is a 215 cylinder head. The code 810 is the same as the longstroke. If anyone from this forum has a pinasco 225 with a different head and can prove it i'll be glad to change my mind Alternatively can contact Andrea Pinasco in person! ;D ;D That said I'll lap tand seal he cylinder as i was told before, i'll tighten the head harder than before and upgrade the mainjet. I'll check the spark plug colour and avoid squeezing the gas too much till the end of the running in. I'll keep you posted. Attachments:
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Post by modpx on Jan 10, 2013 1:51:08 GMT
Don't you just love buying stuff of ebay Alrite, after many researches i came to the final conclusion that the my head is for longstroke 60. In the first the cylinder head of an italian guy from an italian Vespa forum who has the same cylinder head as mine, the model is vrh c60 (c60 stands for corsa60=longstroke60) and the code is 810. The second picture is the "vrh pro candela centrale" (central spark plug) version , it's still for longstroke and is code is A3610. The third pic instead is a 215 cylinder head. The code 810 is the same as the longstroke. If anyone from this forum has a pinasco 225 with a different head and can prove it i'll be glad to change my mind Alternatively can contact Andrea Pinasco in person! ;D ;D That said I'll lap tand seal he cylinder as i was told before, i'll tighten the head harder than before and upgrade the mainjet. I'll check the spark plug colour and avoid squeezing the gas too much till the end of the running in. I'll keep you posted. Attachments:
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Post by modpx on Jan 10, 2013 1:49:42 GMT
Don't you just love buying stuff of ebay Alrite, after many researches i came to the final conclusion that the my head is for longstroke 60. In the first the cylinder head of an italian guy from an italian Vespa forum who has the same cylinder head as mine, the model is vrh c60 (c60 stands for corsa60=longstroke60) and the code is 810. The second picture is the "vrh pro candela centrale" (central spark plug) version , it's still for longstroke and is code is A3610. The third pic instead is a 215 cylinder head. The code 810 is the same as the longstroke. If anyone from this forum has a pinasco 225 with a different head and can prove it i'll be glad to change my mind Alternatively can contact Andrea Pinasco in person! ;D ;D That said I'll lap tand seal he cylinder as i was told before, i'll tighten the head harder than before and upgrade the mainjet. I'll check the spark plug colour and avoid squeezing the gas too much till the end of the running in. I'll keep you posted. Attachments:
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Post by modpx on Jan 9, 2013 16:02:18 GMT
The kit i bought is for longstroke, confirmed. If it wasn't i couldn't be running at all, you can't run a 57 stroke kit with a 60 longstroke without those 1.5 mm. cause the piston would bang against the head. In the Pinasco kit the cylinder is the same either for 57 or 60, is the head to be different so i dont know what numbers Guru checked before but they are irrelevant...(or so it seems).
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Post by modpx on Jan 9, 2013 11:04:00 GMT
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Post by modpx on Jan 9, 2013 10:50:28 GMT
If is the big question I checked the part number of the head in the picture modpx posted and it it confirms what I thought, the head he has is for the 57mm crank. The deepdish Pinasco looks totally different and has a different number. I still dont know why he cant tell us exactly what the squish is now Modpx, Put it back together as it is, if you want it to overheat again. Or put the 1.5mm base gasket if you want it to go faster and have more torque without overheating. Or buy the Pinasco deep dished head and have it no so fast and highly reliable! Hi guru, which part number are you talking about precisely? I can't see any number in that picture apart "Gruppo Pinasco Genova 810"
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Post by modpx on Jan 8, 2013 18:21:12 GMT
do you think that is why i couldnt find any squish? so you say that by spacing the base or between the head and the cylinder i wont get any better performance (more torque/top end etc..)Just a quick tip for lapping your head.......... colour the sealing face with black or blue permanent marker pen which after a few seconds lapping will give you an indication of any high, or low, spots. Read more: vespa.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3135&page=3#ixzz2HPPWYFGDok so no spacers? at any level? nothing like more torque/top end/acceleration? thanks for the tips.
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Post by modpx on Jan 8, 2013 17:35:09 GMT
yes is below.
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Post by modpx on Jan 8, 2013 14:22:34 GMT
just checked it again. Definitely just the dome.
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Post by modpx on Jan 8, 2013 12:26:47 GMT
As i asked before fella....... is the EDGE of the piston protruding above the top of the barrel or just the dome? just the dome..you are making me doubt thou... i have to go and check again but looking at the pic that shouldnt be the upper ring for what i recall
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Post by modpx on Jan 8, 2013 11:43:22 GMT
Well according to SCK the only difference between the two kits is that the head on the 225 accomodates the additional stroke, no need for 1.5mm packer.......... again who am I to argue? Perhaps Pinasco think adding an extra 1.25mm to the bottom isn't the best way to go?? They recommend the SIP Road too. CLICK FOR LINKExactly like i said before i was sure that when i bought the kit that wouldnt need any spacer cause the pinasco head had an already calculated squish for the 60 crankshaft cylindrer kit... but i'm also hearing from others that the piston shouldnt be above the cylinder head... im really confused on this one.. PMS (punto morto superiore) =TDC (top dead center). pxguru: in case a spacer is needed that should be put at the base to diminish the squish not between the head and the cylinder to increase it, right? But if instead the squish is already good cause the pinasco head is made appositely for that than i coud "space" the cylinder head and increase the squish? what benefit would i get? I gave up on the squish calculation, i tryed for hours yesterday and nothing comes out... if you can make me a drawing of the strands how they should be twisted and so on... im sure iis the easiset thing to do but for my little experience i know that what comes to Vespa even screwing the simplest nut can make your life a hell and slow down your job for days!!
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 23:35:57 GMT
Pinasco have always had a generous squish, in fact I don't think I've seen one below 2mm on either the 213 or 225 (long stroke,) and seeing as they've carried out years of R&D who am I to argue? I think your best bet is to lap the head (on the wet &dry,) slap a SIP road on and refit the standard P2 4th gear. It's not going to be a racer by any stretch but should give plenty enough torque to pull. By downgearing all you're really doing is reducing top end and paying handsomly for it. Acceleration will be no different as your primary and 1st/2nd are untouched??? If what you're after is a fast AND torquey motor then you're better off looking at the Polini. I agree every word, as a matter of fact i already have a sip road (actually a Megadella that is much better, hand made by an italian tuner) and i originally didnt plan the short fourth gear. I just ported the case (a more experienced friend did it for me). But once the 4rth gear exploded (lost 2 teeth!!) and so did the cruciform i thought of making something more racey, fun to ride in and out the city but still with a good top end for touring, so i put the long third and short fourth and the special cluster by DRT and i decided to make it even more torquey with the RZ exhaust. The set up you suggested is certainly good but very traditional... i picked Pinasco and not Polini cause it's generally considered more reliable, at least in Italy. In fact i only seized after 30 km with the new set up ;D
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 22:46:54 GMT
Blimey, am I the only one getting confused? We are going here from a piston clear of barrel by 5.5mm (not possible IMHO) or 0.5mm below. Depends on the head recess too or does it fit flat with no lip on this kit.? I was always taught to use two or three starands of solder wire ideally set in a position to go either side & inline with the gudgeon pin (wrist pin in Americana). That reduces the rocking issue giving potential false readings. I'm confused too but i never said the piston was 0.5mm below, the yesterday picture has just been taken from adifferent angle thats why gives the impression of being below, today's pic it was taken exactly from the side to give the right perspective instead. I couldnt calculate perfectly the distance from the piston TDC to the top of the barrel cause the piston is curved so i (super) roughly measured it by putting a straight and flat stick on top of it and i calculated the distance of the corresponding height from the edge of the stick to the top of the barrel, i hope it's clear.. pretty much like this Attachments:
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 22:31:40 GMT
Blimey, am I the only one getting confused? We are going here from a piston clear of barrel by 5.5mm (not possible IMHO) or 0.5mm below. Depends on the head recess too or does it fit flat with no lip on this kit.? I was always taught to use two or three starands of solder wire ideally set in a position to go either side & inline with the gudgeon pin (wrist pin in Americana). That reduces the rocking issue giving potential false readings. I'm confused too but i never said the piston was 0.5mm below, the yesterday picture has just been taken from adifferent angle thats why gives the impression of being below, today's pic it was taken exactly from the side to give the right perspective instead. I couldnt calculate perfectly the distance from the piston TDC to the top of the barrel cause the piston is curved so i (super) roughly measured it by putting a straight and flat stick on top of it and i calculated the distance of the corresponding height from the edge of the stick to the top of the barrel, i hope it's clear..
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 22:18:23 GMT
I would like you to try to measure the squish again. With the piston higher than the barrel at the top and the head you showed a picture of yesterday the squish will be very small. Under 1mm. This would certainly explain why it overheated. It also explains why it doesnt pull the standard 4th gear I just made some rough calculations for you. The numbers are even worse than I thought but the good news is it's very easy to put right. Ok that sounds cool (the easy to put right part i mean...) ! Have you cosidered, thou, the possibility that the pinasco head might have been calculated for that high top TDC in order to keep a very low squish? hmmm... .... anyway tell me about the calculations... ;D
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 18:06:26 GMT
yes its exactly 48mm
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 18:01:14 GMT
in the second pic the piston is at his lowest
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 17:58:41 GMT
The picture of the piston at the top yesterday looked like about 0.5mm below the barrel. agree? can you measure the transfer ports? should be something like 48mm down Attachments:
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 17:58:02 GMT
The picture of the piston at the top yesterday looked like about 0.5mm below the barrel. agree? can you measure the transfer ports? should be something like 48mm down here are 2 pics one from the piston at the top from the side you see is slightly above not below, the second is the distance from the ports (from the exhaust is 37,15 mm approx) Attachments:
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 17:42:29 GMT
pic of what exactlY? the piston at is tic i took it yesterday, its there before the spark plug
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 17:35:37 GMT
the piston at his tdc is higher than the top of the barrel, approx 5,5mm
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 17:30:48 GMT
from the upper edge of the exhaust port to the top of the barrel is 37,15mm 3,7 cm approx
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 17:05:08 GMT
so now i assume i have to decide if and how much i want to thicken the base right? any suggestions?
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 16:28:46 GMT
im writin from the garage, im using a 2mm solder wire with standard 0.25 mm base gasket and nothing happens which means pinasco has over 2mm squish. end of the squish case.
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 9:16:46 GMT
1st the good news. It isn't pinking (pre ignition). . I was just pointing out that pinking is detonation and not pre ignition, and the info is relevant whether 2 or 4 sroke as both cause and effect are the same......... knackered motor. Personally, having re read the initial post, I'm more inclined to think it's a head leak, and not pinking, that's caused this problem. Looking at the pic of the head you can see blow by which is quite bad for a motor that's only done 20km. Modpx.......... you need to use a twist of solder, 1, 2, 3, possibly even 4 strands of solder twisted together, and then bend into a right angle.......... poke it into the cylinder head with the aim being to get the end of the solder touching the edge of the barrel so that when you turn the motor over by hand the piston crushes the solder. Do this at either 2 or 4 o'clock when looking at the cylinder head as this will give a slightly more accurate reading. If you try it at the top or bottom of head the piston will rock in the bore giving a bad measurement.. Personal opinion is that with the Pinasco being a relatively low revving kit with generous squish and low compression that pinking isn't really going to be an issue but with todays crap fuels it's always better to err on the side of caution and retard your timing Hi i just read your explanation. It was very accurate. Yes i have the same opinion on Pinasco kits. Thanks.
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Post by modpx on Jan 7, 2013 8:53:20 GMT
The thing with the squish is that i don't know if is so necessary to measure it, i start to think that Pinasco set the kit (that includes also the head and the crankshaft 60) already with the perfect squish... probably if i start to thicken the base in order to make it rev higher then the squish is important..but for a torquey kit like Pinasco maybe not? hmmm about the sealants... i was suggested to put the red silicon at the cylinder base together with the gasket...Pxguru suggested wd40 for the cylinder head but is it ok also for the cylinder base? Sorry, you are having some trouble understanding. I'll try to be clearer. WD40 is to put on the 1200 wet and dry paper, ontop of a glass sheet, to polish the head gasket surface. Your Pinasco kit does not need any sealant anywhere. Pinasco/Malossi/Polini make the all kits to fit all scooters. If you want yours to be fast as possible you need to adjust it to fit your engine. The trick is knowing what to adjust where. That spark plug picture is not so clear but confirms the overheating anyway. yeah i understood that wd 40 was just for polishing, it's it only purpose..i was wandering if there was any other way of sealing required other than polishing the cylinder from the blue stuff, but you just explain it doesnt.i made also other questions about squish which i cant meausre. There i maybe have not understood something since the wire doesnt get squashed anywhere.
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