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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 23, 2017 18:22:55 GMT
Be having problems with my vespa
Should the primary gear is running out
quite a bit even after I've changed the bearing?
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 23, 2017 21:18:24 GMT
Would be nice if you introduced yourself, in the " introduce yourself & your scoot" section first 😉
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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 23, 2017 21:37:13 GMT
Apologies I've just done it!😉
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Post by henri on Jul 24, 2017 6:42:14 GMT
if you mean the shafts a bit "wobbly" when just supported in one side of the cases ,yes , if cases are together an viewed from behind were clutch sits ,no. H
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 24, 2017 8:16:42 GMT
Ok, nice one.😉😀
I Agree with H on this.
Mij☺
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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 24, 2017 9:10:38 GMT
Yes view from the clutch side in the cases the gear that connects with the clutch is eccentric when turned. So I guess in theory throwing the clutch out of true making my clutch very snatchy and it makes one he'll of a scrape screeching noise before it's engaged.
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 24, 2017 12:41:44 GMT
Did you put the 21 loose needle bearings back in? Preferably new ones as you replaced the roller bearing as they are cheap?
Has this engine been running well at any point, before the bearing was changed?
When you changed the bearing, were the cushdrive springs ok?
Does the engine have the correct primary drive fitted? (Is the engine made up of used spare parts?).
Does the case on the flywheel side have the steel primary drive race ( cup?) Fitted?
Is the case cracked where the primary drive gets bolted to the case ( clutch side)?
Had 3hrs sleep last night , so forgive me if I'm wide of the mark in trying to diagnose the problem, Bud. 😵😉.
Good luck.
Mij☺
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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 24, 2017 19:28:02 GMT
from the top!
"02" LmL 150 bought as a project started and run okish with noisy bearings not able to ride as no cables connected, so cheap enough so took a chance,
so engine cases split new crank and all new bearings and seal fitted as per Scooter works "Sausage" DVDs, all back together everything connected started 2nd Kick! "this ill do i thought! so outside for a quick test ride, tickover mixture adjusted while warming up. Clutch in into 1st few revs engine bogged a little and Bang really nasty lurch and a scraping screeching sound, so engine off clutch arm cable checked for snags moving smooth etc. started again into 1st
same thing only this time totally unpredictable, tried again clutch in 1st gear no revs idle speed clutch gingerly and seem to be ok so up and down street a couple time seem to change uop and down ok, thought it has sorted its self. but no few revs 1st gang did it again same thing after numerous tries.
back in the shed clutch off inspected ad score marks on the basket and inner cog where steels have been catching,so new clutch Indian one from the local scooter spares shop/unit. back home checked to seee it was assemble right not rough edges on the basket friction plates etcsoak plates for 4-5hours back on scoot and this time its seems worse! loader noise when it finally bites. Clutch of again oil drained as the basket has really deep gauges where the steels have caught the basket, oil black full of swarf. so i tried another clutch this time Italian one from ScooterWorks £89!.
back in scoot fresh oil fingers crossed but still doing the same.
so engine out on bench in stand head barrel and piston off clutch cover off hub on temporary so i can spin it up to see whats going on, first i tried the original clutch the came with the engine indian one and really bad run out so tried the expensive Italian one do the same but not as bad, so i thought the crank was out of true, so i thought i must have a bad one so one after a phone call i arranged for another to be sent out, in the mean time i notice the the flywheel has a little movement up and down and side to side, so i thought the crank must of wrecked the bearings, new crank arrives new bearing either side all back together,
think sit should surely be good now and bang does it again first time!
back to bench as i diddnt want to risk the new crank as it getting quite expensive considering a cheap project!!!
engine stripped back on stand and Thats when i notice the primary gear to be running eccentric could this be the problem?
also the flywheel is moving again a little worse than before despite the new bearing and crank inner race.
any help woudl be greatly appreciated please!
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Post by ironsloth on Jul 24, 2017 20:14:56 GMT
These things are never a cheap project, more of an ongoing restoration.... You've either got to be dedicated or a lunatic to run anything remotely old... I've got 4 of the dam things in varying stages of disarray, they seem to spawn more bits everytime the shed door is closed... Just a thought, have you got matched engine casings? I remember a problem me and a mate had getting one running. Somehow we had swapped opposite side casings, took ages to work it out.... 😅
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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 24, 2017 20:19:28 GMT
Yes matching cases same numbers at some point it's gone down the road on it's side judging by the flywheel I'd say it was running. I at a loss apart from replacing the primary gear/shaft cluster etc new cases?
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Post by ironsloth on Jul 24, 2017 20:27:32 GMT
Next guess, is your mainshaft true? I will add I am nowhere near mij and Hs level, if it was a ladder, I would barely make bottom 😆
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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 24, 2017 21:23:08 GMT
As far as I can seen yes mainshaft looks straight enough.Must add yesterday with the help from a mate took the wheel and hub off propped frame up made sure it wasnt going to move started engine into first few revs clutch out no snatch 2 3 and 4th then back back into 1st high revs low revs no issues. So seems to Ok when not under any load
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 25, 2017 12:49:16 GMT
Ironsloth, nice one👍, the next question was going to be matched cases😉😀. fastfred69,I have to say I'm not familiar with LML engines but believe they are susceptible to breaking cases where the primary drive bolts to the case as they do not have the same locking parts as fitted by Piaggio primary drives and this is worth doing!😉👍. If I'm understanding this correctly, I Think your going to have to take the primary drive out, then clamp the shaft in a soft jaw vise, with all it's bearings, Inc needle bearings fitted and give it a spin to see if everything is running true, as this is a strange one and If it's fine that at least rules out the primary drive.If it is not running true you'll have to work out if it's a faulty bearing or has it been machined out of true? www.youtube.com/user/TheFreakmoped, The link above shows how bad modern bearings, cranks, clutches etc,can be, so worth a look!. Get back to use once you have checked the primary drive. Good luck. Mij😀 |
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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 26, 2017 9:10:18 GMT
Primary out needle rollers in clamp in vice still running ot so I changed the main bearing still the same. Don't think it's the shaft Looks to be the whole cluster out, Be would that have be like since it The motor was originally put together from new?
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 26, 2017 12:21:45 GMT
Could well be, think around that time they had bad cranks too.
Try a new or good used primary drive, or better still a borrowed one, in the case with new bearings,if your using the old shaft do the same again and try it in a vise first😉,then make sure the spindle shaft fits snugly in the case ( check the case for wear at the hole the shaft goes in ), if it was mine I'd fit the PX locking tab, washer ect, if it's not already fitted as, this saves the nut coming loose and cracking the case at the primary drive shaft.👍
Good luck and let us know how you get on, mate.
Mij☺
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Post by pxguru on Jul 26, 2017 12:51:16 GMT
Sometimes the primary cog is just not as round as it should be. Seems like this is not the major issue, as it would not cause the symptoms you describe, unless you did something really wrong like use the wrong primary shaft from an old Piaggio or forgot the needles (already mentioned).
With the wobbly flywheel I would say it is a crank related issue. Any significant wobble here is too much. I don't know much LML but isn't the flywheel side different in some way?
If you put some videos on Youtube we will know exactly what you are talking about.
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 26, 2017 14:21:47 GMT
The strange thing is, it's fitted with a new crank,bearings and seals. Wonder if the bearings are loose fit in the casing? Also freak mopeds shows how much a wobble flywheels can have even when new bearings have been fitted.He also shows the differences in case, clutch cover and clutch measurements that can affect clutches.
Was the crank pulled or hammered into place?
Mij☺
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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 26, 2017 18:28:15 GMT
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 26, 2017 21:34:37 GMT
Can see the clutch running off center, but can't see what the crank stump( the shaft on the crank that the clutch goes on) is doing, as the camera is moving about, but assume it's looking like the video below? did you knock the new crank into the clutch side bearing when you fitted it? As it's looking like it could be a twisted crank or a bad crank. If you look on the link, then look at his "funny crank fail video" is the clutch side stump of the crank moving about Like the fail video? Or a video of the crank turning without the clutch fitted to it, may help? And would be interested to see a the flywheel, does it have all it's fins? Or bent fins? m.youtube.com/user/TheFreakmoped☺Mij |
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Post by henri on Jul 27, 2017 7:30:15 GMT
as this started with a "eccentricity" in the primarys/tree , i'm starting to suspect either a badly machined cog or a disintegrating cush drive .the primary is located to tree by rivets thru plates sandwiching springs .so theres a little "give" on take up off load .seems everything else has been changed or checked .have looked at clutch video , an suspect its a bit of a optical illusion on the basket,your eyes are being thrown out by the tangs passing by . looking at the centre nut an it dont seem to oscillate at all . pull the clutch an strip it an just put the centre an base plate back on an look again ,an try with just the centre/gear wheel an feel for binding then between primarys . have you done a teeth count on the primarys ,as people swap clutch gears when tuning an not all primarys can be matched .
bit of a puzzler this one . H
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 27, 2017 7:55:00 GMT
Did you put the 21 loose needle bearings back in? Preferably new ones as you replaced the roller bearing as they are cheap? Has this engine been running well at any point, before the bearing was changed? When you changed the bearing, were the cushdrive springs ok? Does the engine have the correct primary drive fitted? (Is the engine made up of used spare parts?). Does the case on the flywheel side have the steel primary drive race ( cup?) Fitted? Is the case cracked where the primary drive gets bolted to the case ( clutch side)? Had 3hrs sleep last night , so forgive me if I'm wide of the mark in trying to diagnose the problem, Bud. 😵😉. Good luck. Mij☺ Henri, I asked about the cush drive springs back here and don't think I got an answer😉 The only common denominators seem to be : same flywheel used each time, Same cases, Same primary drive, same flywheel and crank fitted by same person using same technique? As I understand it, so my thinking so far, is it should be one of them causing the problem? Mij☺ |
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Post by fastfred69 on Jul 27, 2017 10:20:39 GMT
Thanks again for the replies. After first time the clutch problem arise i thought it could be a primary issue ie broken spring/s. But they were all good and we're replaced with new rivets plates etc. As for the 1st new crank the one in the videos I returned it and have just recieved an email from the supplies to say they had it on there bench and it's well with tolerance. So think I can rule out that side. So at a bit of of a loss now🤥
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Post by mijapxman on Jul 27, 2017 12:33:57 GMT
My this is a strange one.Not sure I believe the suppliers story as heard some good ones in the past, so maybe? Would have been better if you could have checked it yourself, but hay ho😉.
If you could borrow a known good primary drive and clutch( even an old six spring) I would try that, to either cure the problem or not, if it's a no at least you will have eliminated those parts and if it's a yes, Bob's your uncle😉.
Will keep thinking about it, hope it's not badly machined cases.
Good luck.
Mij☺
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