Vespa Cosa Pinasco 225 Pinasco 60mm Crank Advice please

[gillie]

Hi Guys im after abit of advice as im just about to build my engine , Ive got the new Pinasco 225 with the Pinacso 60mm Crank /DRT 24/24

Sip were rubbish when i rang and ask for the full compatible set up so i ordered a packer , but i dont know if i need it well not yet ? also would you know a ball park for a starter mainjet i want to run a Sip 2 and I am adamant it will pull standard gearing though sum are recommending a short 4th , but im not convinced , the casings are already matched by a good tuner i trust ,and he did some work extending the and matching for the inlet and carb box etc, , i guess im after your perfect set up advice on this set up , Pinasco are saying 21 degrees for the timing and it has the new recessed head , thanks in advance! Gillie  

Ill add photos of the Kit, Crank and casings over the weekend , thanks 

[henri]

you will need the packer for sure .longer stroke=piston goes up higher ,so packers needed to stop it hitting head , not a good thing . as you build the lump ,barrel n piston on with packer underneath an gaskets , tape a cross of thick solder across piston dome so the legs of cross reach the edges . head on an bolted down ,turn engine over once by hand ,remove head an solder an measure the ends of solder were the pistons flattened it against head . thats ya "squish" measurement/tolerance . your looking for a 1.3-1.5mm squish . anyless an thicker gasket paper under/over packer to bring it up to that. anymore an packer needs thinning , little bits by rubbin on wet/dry flat on a sheet of glass .big bits by machining or even ordering a thinner bit of ali/packer . H

[pxguru]

H, The new Pinasco Super Sport 225 with the recessed 8 bolt head, comes as a 225. No need for any packer.
The rest of the engine will need plenty of work for it to run well ie. not guzzle fuel, not sieze and go fast

Wait until he puts some pictures up and you'll see.

[vespasco]

from memory.......i dont think you will need the packer either
you certainly dont need a short 4th
ill get back to you when i dig out my notes

[gillie]

ill get the pics up asap i got drunk instead tonight , Its the new Pinasco Super Sport 225 with the recessed 8 bolt head, for sure , the casings were taken back about 9mm backwards and 4mm toward the front and squared and fettled as far as i could see , ( the guy who did them knew the degrees etc ) the spigot/casing was matched exactly and checked with the gaskets etc , the carb box and casing were matched to the new DRT carb Si 24/24 which has all the mods done already , im glad you dont think ill need the shorter fourth as this was my opinion too ,

dose anyone have an idea of a good start for the main jet , also as i said the kit says to use the IT 21 degree mark if anyone has any other opinions id love to hear ! thx

[henri]

Aah , didnt realise the new pinasco was designed for use with a 60mm crank ,so no packer required . H

[vespasco]

memory is coming back but will still confirm later....
im not so sure what the cylinder was designed for....its very similar timings, deck height etc to the old cylinder
and even uses the same piston as previous kit
and has the same problems as the previous kit where you would have a large squish gap with 57mm crank...60mm crank gives good deck height etc but transfer timings are a little too much.... but finally, the compression with the a3611 head is ok with 60mm crank.

I think its the Polini that uses different cylinder etc for 57mm and 60mm cranks.

as much as i love the pinasco, i cant help but feel they still havent got it right after all this time.
Hence the fettling thats required to keep it running

[vespasco]

my notes tell me that it would be best with a stock gasket (cut ports to suit)

i measured, with a stock 0.2mm gasket,

Deck height = 0.5mm
giving squish of around 1.9mm

The transfer timing will be around 125.6' , suited to around 8500rpm

A better BlowDown timing of 23.7' = 7400rpm

Exhaust measured @ 173' = 7750rpm

so, maybe a little improvement on the old cylinder!

i love the 8 x prisoner design

but still squish could be smaller

and porting could match a little better
my opinion only

so, keep that cylinder as low as possible,, the thinner the base gasket, the better it will be

[gillie]

Thanks for the information guys , do you have any idea on a ballpark to start jetting a DRT 24Si with a Sip 2 , also will i need to mod the exhaust at all? (lazy question as its still in the box , THANKS

[pxguru]

A lot of money has been spent so you are right to be cautious. I would start with jets which I thought were way to big. In your case a 55/100 pilot, 160 AC, BE3 and a 145 main jet. You will need smaller jets and the fullbox to choose from.

[gillie]

yeah i was thinking 55/100 pilot, 160 AC, BE3 and a 135 main but i think your right to go bigger first and keep checking the plug , , do you know about the exhaust mod ?

[vespasco]

yeh, the mj @ 145 to start to cover you should be enough

im not sure what exhaust mod you are talking of tho?

and timing @ 21' , may work, i dont know, try it...if it pings then thats the first thing i would change.... by retarding to 19' , then try 20' if it doesn't ping.... you'll soon know where is best

[gillie]

HI , i was told to fit the sip 2 to the cosa i need to cut a bracket but im not sure thanks

[henri]

the front bracket ,one with captive nut ,an use a normal nut on bolt . an lashings of copper grease as always .if in doubt offer it up an which bracket has to go will be obvious .all px exhausts fit cosas ,but need bracket changes ,so long as there 125/150's or 200's theres a difference in angle of downpipe . H

[gillie]

mmmm im doing a 200 so is that a no fit pipe ive bought ?
i was told it would fit LOL

[henri]

if its a 200 pipe it will fit , barrels same on a cosa as a p200 ,unless its a very late ali barrel cosa2 type .but even then same pipe will fit ,just cosa swingarms are thicker so 1 brackets got to go . H

[gillie]

hey H , ive got the late cosa2 alloy barrel on this one , are they any good if i want to reuse it on another 200 with the pipe
, its in great condition and only done 9000

[henri]

there good barrels ,slightly better than the older iron p200 type . but frankly the p200/cosa barrels not really considered the easiest to tune/improve .coz of the skewed port layout ,it can be done but most get a kit an alter the cases to match .
if you dont re-use it can i be head of the queue to have it .or you could start a bunfight for it on the cosanauts facebook page . H

[pxguru]

You have to be mad to tune a P200 cast iron barrel....I have one on my tourer Took ages to do as there is so much metal round the ports that has to go. Then re-bored it out to 68mm. Was worth it in the end but won't be doing it again in a hurry.

[gillie]

thanks for the replys guys , ill put it to one side for now i guess , , ive also got a early Harry Barlow 200 in my P2 which ive never been happy with as i was messing round with the gearing and it just never quite worked out , ill start a new post and wait for your advice

[gillie]

hi guys , so now i have a new question i am thinking of a reinforced banded etc clutch , so ive just checked the primarys and i was surprised to find that the cosa 200 runs 21 - 68 standard , so next question do i keep this or will i be able to go up to 22 /68 with standard gearing with the build ??your thoughts please gentlemen

[henri]

yep thats stock on a cosa , revvy engines with not great top speed but they get there very quickly .a lot swap out for p2 primarys an a t5 shorter 4th ,an theres pinasco an polini upgears kits available . not sure but if you could swap to a 22 i'd of thought most would ,that being the cheaper/easier option ,so maybe theres a problem/reason not too . you could try the cosanaut page on faceBOK . its were i loiter for cosa specific true info. H

[vespasco]

i think thats the same gearbox as simes?
have a look at his posts concerning gearing " The Beast" - vespa.proboards.com/thread/5635/beast-2

remember his a totally different top end but for gearing only.......

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[gillie]

after reading and having a chat with other members I decided to strip and change it to p2 23/65 primarys and ill keep the gearbox as is , thanks for you help

[gillie]

well that was fun 3 strips later , lol 65 primary was nealry new but the bearing was noisy once it was in , so i changed it that refitted it and the main shaft and gearbox ! , then i noticed the inner shaft diameter was smaller on the primary flywheel side so out it came again 3 times putting the needles in LOL , my evening was fun! , but its gone back a treat now , just got to order the uprated banded 23 tooth clutch tuesday !

[gillie]

i had a few issues with the new Pinasco clutch 7 spring (older type) to be honest ill never go back to a cosa type now as this works great and was cheaper also i fitted it with the geared spacer from the original oil pump and it was dragging a little so i stripped it again and changed it for an older non injection spacer which was .4 mm thinner this fixed the problem straight away So went out on the scoot today for the first run, MOT was a breeze did 30 miles and it feels like a torque monster , i live on a big set of hills and it pulled 4th easy everywhere . for now obvioulsy ive got to take it easy for a while but the carb seems spot on (thanks for the suggestions on jetting) running a 55/100 pilot, 160 AC, BE3 and a 145 main jet. for now , ill keep you posted once ive run it in thanks again guys !

[pxguru]

Well done! Sounds like its going well. That is probably the best bolt on touring kit available today. I expect it to go really well once set up. Will need plenty of timing advance, as its long stroke, I would start at 21 degrees.
Many guys are but I am not a fan of the old style clutches, even all welded up then they find new ways to crack. See how long yours lasts, now you have it.
If that 145 MJ is ok now, then there is a problem. It really should be quite spluttery. You are going to need to drill your carb out to 2mm like we have all done on ours. Run it in for a while first but keep it less than half throttle. Seizing one of these in the early stages can do serious damage. Once you have a few hundred miles on it get the carb drilled and jetted in a bit better.

[gillie]

im running a drt 24si carb so it has the cosa bigger float drilled filter and the 2mm upgrade etc ,ill keep you posted

[pxguru]

Running a 145MJ with the 2mm drilling is impressive. What are the rest of the jets in the carb? If you have it starting well and running smooth best leave it there. If it needs that much fuel firstly its going to be pretty quick in general and secondly it should really have a bigger carb. Post a picture of you WOT plug chop and I can see how it runs.

[gillie]

Hello sir when you say impressive what do you mean?? or why LOL Im running a 55/100 pilot, 160 AC, BE3 and a 145 main jet. for now first plug chop was perfect , but only did 20 miles and never above 50 (yet) but it was nice and chocolate