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Post by sime66 on Dec 6, 2015 11:11:46 GMT
I'm surprised you saw any good in that; I'll have more confidence in myself when I get closer to making the same conclusions, unaided. I'm putting this here again for myself because I keep looking back to find it: There is no colour at base of cone either – I didn't do all the photos because I thought it was just an error/reject; I just showed colour and electrode. I'll recheck my screws and do a longer run, keep an eye on the temps, see if I can get more colour – not today though. Actually, checking back, 102ºC is the temp I got with the 55/160 plug chop, so my 100ºC this morning is OK, and it did start and feel great; maybe I was wrong, but I was just so surprised to see it so white. (It was 125ºC with that brief WOT - 8,000 in 3rd before, and so far I've had 147ºC max recorded, doing long running-in miles with the odd blast – that's before starting setting-up). I didn't do a Progression plug chop or temps with the 52/140 because I couldn't get rid of the flat spot with it, and after looking at the film of that we decided to go to the 52/120, which set up easily and felt great; I can go back and do the 52/140 again though, with chops and temps – might have more success now I've had a few goes at it. It never really made sense to me how the 55/160 & 52/120 were OK, but the 52/140 gave me problems. The other photos above are just the old plug that I took out after messing around with the screws with the 52/120 yesterday, and after a very short, slow ride home along the lane. I started with a brand new plug this morning. I'm getting more new plugs, and i need to get this CHT ring stuck down properly too, though maybe that was a red herring this morning. It doesn't matter to me, but I can see this taking quite a while to get right now, with such a small opportunity to plug chop this time of year, once it's got light, before the traffic gets too busy. I'll try to think of another road, but tweaking – chopping – tweaking – changing plugs - changing jets – tweaking – chopping is just not very doable how and where I'm trying to do it this time of year. I'm going to think about how I get round that; I had hoped setting it up in the lane beforehand for plug chops on this road early Sunday would do it. I'm going to leave it alone today now; think about something else for a while, then see what I can get done during the week to try to get some better progress next weekend...... (vespasco ^ that was a reply to pxguru; yours appeared as I posted, so I'll read it now...................) Here you go, vespasco: I seem to be getting muddled what sort of plug I should be starting with; I thought I wanted a brand new plug – just warmed-up. I can do 5, 10, 20 miles gentle riding first if that's what's wanted. (don't need daylight for that). - This seems to be prime suspect for that plug colour then. I can do more photos of electrode. Cone etc.; it went straight into a box after inspection and came home for photos, so it's handy if needed. No despair - at all; had hoped to be crossing this task off the list today, but any timescale with it is only man-made. I will probably ease-off over Christmas which is only a few weekends away; I anticipate some much colder weather in New Year (not doing WOT plug chops on ice!!), and it's a year since I started it in January too, so would have been good to get it done by then, but it really doesn't matter; my riding at the moment is only short, local rides until the Spring. We'll get there; better to get it right than done quickly...........
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Post by henri on Dec 6, 2015 12:18:36 GMT
dont panic , i think you need to do more miles on that set up to get a "true" colour on ya plug , if it was holding at 100degrees in 3rd it cant of been far out . if lean enough to seize an undo all your good work so far ,temp would of been climbing off the gauge. slowly-slowly catchee monkey, an as you point out xmas is upon us ,cold weather=leaner mix ,an a self imposed deadline of january/1 year build wont help. give ya self a break, do some more short hops/local rides ,get engine run in more an fully loosened up ,then dial it in in better weather.in prep for a full summers back road hooliganism, you know you want to.H
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Post by vespasco on Dec 6, 2015 12:46:08 GMT
I believe the new plug thing is to see the colour at the base of the cone more than anything, which is where yo need to actually 'chop the plug',with a hacksaw, the threaded part that is, to actually see it....unless you have a jewellers loupe with a light on it and squint your eyes bit.
Overall colour will need a few more miles on it to be able to refer it against your biscuit chart
*xmas!? Id forgotten all about that until you mentioned it. I wonder if santa will make it my way with a new big box!? (Thanks btw)!
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Post by sime66 on Dec 6, 2015 15:31:02 GMT
I started writing this a couple of hours ago, got distracted by my toaster setting off my smoke alarm, then the batteries died in my keyboard, and I forgot all about it. Now I'm fed and watered (3:00pm breakfast, vespasco), here we go: Thanks chaps; from reading all three of your replies this morning, maybe it's not as drastically far off as I initially thought – I'd have gone round and done it again but was worried it was so lean so just brought it home.I've got my feet up in the dry now anyway, so not bovvered at the moment! And, I'll be an Old Pro like you chaps, and with a 'bullet-proof' set-up, by the time I've finished faffing around with this ! Ahh; you got the pdf, vespasco – I know you probably won't want it until you return to UK, but it's cleared from my out-box now; I'll do the Malossi 210 one sometime too. H, your stuff should be with you Tuesday – hope it isn't too late or soggy on arrival; it's probably still sitting in the postbox out the front here until the morning (posted 2:30pm Saturday - probably missed collection) – maybe I'll go and put a plastic bag over it. - Everybody's happy anyway. Forget the shopping days, there's two Chopping Sundays to Xmas...................
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Post by henri on Dec 6, 2015 19:39:41 GMT
no better day to chop than xmas day , empty clear roads , H
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Post by sime66 on Dec 6, 2015 20:16:14 GMT
Like your thinking, H................
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Post by pxguru on Dec 7, 2015 9:30:24 GMT
Would be interesting information to have the running temperature difference between the 52/120 and 52/140. Under identical adjustment and runs there will be a clear temperature difference at the progression stage.
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Post by sime66 on Dec 7, 2015 9:49:04 GMT
OK; that's easy enough to do - I'll find a slot in the week to have a play: Pilot Jet =v= Progression Stage Temp.
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Post by henri on Dec 8, 2015 14:12:50 GMT
got the manual today sime ,thanks ,havent read it yet as postie brought new duvet cover aswell me like it , H
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Post by pxguru on Dec 9, 2015 4:02:11 GMT
That would have been so cool at 16 years old! Hey, hang on....is still cool now. Where do I get one? Would like the chance one day to tune up a 50 Special. My one I had at 16 used to do about 35mph flat out on a good day and about 20mph up hill! With what I know now I recon I could tune one to get 55mph plus out of that little 50 piston without any big bore kit! Would still would only go 20mph up hill though
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Post by henri on Dec 9, 2015 16:38:47 GMT
its the gearing that restricts 50speshes ,as short strokes can go upto 1100rpm ,just, but any headwind/gradient an they cant pull the skin off custard .H
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Post by vespasco on Dec 9, 2015 16:59:44 GMT
Ahhh! A 50 Spesh! My first love! Plus a stack of jazz mags next to my bed. Hahaha. (Viz and Scootering). My kitted (110cc) used to do about 35mph!! When it ran. I still loved it tho'. I even used to polish that one. Well, it was always sleeping in the shed, not working! Sweet dreams H
I hope to see some results from the idle changes too sime
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Post by sime66 on Dec 9, 2015 22:04:13 GMT
Who you callin' idle! Glad to see you chaps playing nicely anyway. I should be back to it Friday; watch this space................... (don't know how much space I'll need)
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Post by doulsy on Dec 9, 2015 22:43:07 GMT
this thread is amazing, just about all of it has went over my head, but amazing none the less, the info and help you get on this forum is unreal, i guess there is nowhere on the net like this place even if it is full of bams lol
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Post by sime66 on Dec 10, 2015 8:25:33 GMT
You'll be doing some of this yourself soon enough; hope it'll be useful.............
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Post by henri on Dec 10, 2015 10:49:36 GMT
not the only nutty-boy space doulsy , try the smallframe forum some day ,nice bunch of guys ,if slightly dremel-happy an predujice about large frames,or lardys/fat-bums as they call em . or cosanauts page on facebooger ,bunch of nice chaps who love cosas coz there ugly an everbod else hates em . vespaco should of stuck v100 primarys in ya spesh ,55mph all day long then with a 19/19 carb . an speshes go for upto 2 grand nowadays ,bet ya wish ya kept it now . sime , once again many thanks for the dell reading material , an best of luck with ya "mystery" item on flea-bay , will watch n keep fingers crossed , got same sort of cliffhanger on a 24/24 myself today , heres praying everybody elses tinterweb fails . H
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Post by sime66 on Dec 10, 2015 11:15:19 GMT
You're very welcome H. Thanks for the advice over item - fingers crossed for both (saw your one too - we'll have to devise a means of not bidding against each other). You know that if I get mine there'll be a million new questions next year - You can take a well-earned short break over Xmas holidays though! By my bed when I was 16: discarded clothing off a young lady from the Girl's school. Transport when I was 17: 1977 Mini 1000 - £800 in 1983 - (needed to transport aforementioned young lady).
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Post by henri on Dec 10, 2015 15:38:56 GMT
an a datsun 1800 cherry an mark 4/5 cortina in background ,an is that a fiat 1000 between em, had a datsun years ago til the tinworm killed it an have had 3 cortinas 4/5 , back when you could buy a 3 month tax/mot car for 100 an scrap it when stuff ran out .tidy minilite wide rims ,an 800 , wouldnt get ya a rotten barn find classic mini nowadays .i love em ,but dont fit in em an speed bumps give me headaches an dent the roof , H
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Post by sime66 on Dec 11, 2015 10:51:08 GMT
That was the Tech College car park in Dartford - all sorts of old scrap being driven there. I had my mini for 6-7 years; my pride and joy, I loved it, and had so much fun in it. (It got stolen piece by piece from outside my flat when I moved up to London - I scrapped it for £10 in the end). I wasn't bothered then because I had this baby for a couple of years!!
Sadly, that got exchanged for a bleedin' mortgage, and I've been poor ever since! Now, we've all had a reminisce; back to the plot tomorrow chaps - try and make some progress before the silly season.....................
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Post by henri on Dec 11, 2015 12:22:19 GMT
ooh , sorry to still digress ,but series3 military lightweight landy , more of a 2A guy myself , some happy years workin in a landy garage n smuggling in scoot/bike parts at night to work on . built myself a long wheelbase military spec 1 from spares/new parts ,with a wooden flat bed an half sides , wish i hadnt sold it ,but guy gave me a bedford truck an big wad of cash for it .H
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Post by sime66 on Dec 11, 2015 13:49:52 GMT
Digress away, mate; I haven't touched the scooter since Monday, I was trying to persuade myself to refocus on the job really, but it's cold and wet outside and I'm quite enjoying remembering those carefree days with plenty of expendable income. That cost £2,400 in 1987; I think that was about a 1977 too; I had more info on it at the time, but think it was about the same age as my Mini. It was unmolested ex-military – all the military dash, convoy controls, etc.
In the end I needed cash for deposit on a house, so sold it to a Canadian chap in 1989, for the same money. He intended taking it touring (Europe) – can't remember where he went with it. He offered it back to me when he returned, but I was skint by then – (recession, negative equity....grown-up, boring stuff) . I was still more into enjoying than fixing stuff back then too, but I did learn quite a bit with the Landrover, and did a few jobs when I had to – pretty simple to work on too - just in the street, and the Dealer I'd got it off was a proper enthusiast with loads of parts and advice.
I'm afraid I'm feeling a bit end of term wind-down at the moment; normal service will be resumed....................
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Post by vespasco on Dec 13, 2015 9:16:43 GMT
Nice motors! The most exotic car i ever owned was a 4 wheeler version of a Cosa...by that i mean it was italian and f'ugly even although it was 'designed' by Pininfarina, (who i just read may end up being sold off to indian firm Mahindra). The car, which i had for 6 years and liked and enjoyed so much i later bought another one, was, don't laugh, a Talbot Samba convertible ! Hahaha No i didn't luv it like a vespa (i was still riding my SS180 at the time) but i didn't care. So much fun. Quite simply, cars don't interest me much.
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Post by sime66 on Dec 13, 2015 9:32:31 GMT
I've just got back from a (not very successful) riding/chopping session - more of that later when I have my photos, thoughts and data together. I've never really been in to flash cars either, but did have some fun-cars before the big bills. My initial point was I quickly went to four wheels because I always had a passenger. Once I'd settled in London I just rode to wherever I was working on my (mountain) bike, and hired a car now and then when I needed one to go away. Anyway, back to the plot; I'll make myself a coffee, read your PM, and do a very sad post to show this mornings lack of progress. (This carb is not benefitting from my cack-handed attmepts at jetting).
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Post by henri on Dec 13, 2015 10:54:39 GMT
there ya go again ,vespaco, slaggin the cosa ,yes its fugly an unloved ,but thats why us "cosanauts" love em. somebody has too . sime , stick at it ,what you thinks a unsuccessful sessions still good info ,knowing were not to be will lead you too the "promised land" .have faith ,you'll get there ,eventually ,an the journeys half the "fun" ? . H
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Post by sime66 on Dec 13, 2015 11:50:21 GMT
H - will stick at it; no worries there. I just can't help wondering if my 10 thumbs are making this more of a job than it really should be, and if some of my info is unreliable 'cos of my amateurish attempts. Here's this morning's verse anyway: Weather conditions:Precip: Overcast (100%), no rain Pressure: 1017mb Temp: 10ºC Wind: SSW - 6 knots. Progression plug chop with 52/120:(running smooth through low revs and good Idle-Rev-Idle, but temp on chop run was 108ºC).
Natural Colour – no flash:
Cone – There is a faint, narrow grey ring, but I can't catch it in photo:
I had done a 40km ride at mixed revs/gears/speeds beforehand, with temps up to 123ºC – not going silly, just riding around and keeping an eye on temp to make sure it didn't go too high.
After that plug chop, I swapped the plug, and because it was lean I went round the lane to check where my rev and idle screws were, and to redo them. They were where I'd left them after doing a session of setting-up for smooth running, slow Idle, and good Idle-rev-Idle previously: mix -1½, Idle 1¾. I set them up again, but not much different ( 1½ & 1½), and went for a 20km ride with new plug, with a bit of a burst to 139ºC – trying to get some colour, I then went round town twice and finished with another plug chop. This time the max temp was 102ºC, but there was still very little colour in the plug, and a white electrode:
Progression plug chop with 52/120: (After another tweak; still running smooth through low revs and good Idle-Rev-Idle, but temp on chop run was 102ºC).
Natural Colour – no flash:
Cone – Nothing to see:
So, the first one is too lean – must be? The second one, it looks like I didn't ride it enough first, but surely somethings not right if I'm getting so little colour in the plug. I'm setting it up as I should and getting nice static throttle responses, god low rev riding, good riding in general, no silly temps (apart from maybe being a little too hot on that first 2mm plug chop this morning?)
I'm a little bit lost for ideas this morning – there aren't many richer Pilots, and I'm wondering if that's it anyway. I imagine it will be fine for the little local rides I'm doing at the moment; I'll just make sure I keep an eye on the temps, but I really want to get some decent plug colour, and to know I'm good on the Pilot – with this engine, and the riding I'm doing at the moment, I'm going to be riding with not much MJ a fair bit, I imagine.
What's the story, chaps?
(I didn't do temps for the 52/140; it seemed wrong to put a leaner Pilot in while I'm getting these plugs with the 52/120).
Breakfast and pondering...................................
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Post by pxguru on Dec 13, 2015 13:04:41 GMT
Hmmmm....looks way too hot to me too!
Its either too weak at the bottom which is hard to believe, as that 52/120 is a rich enough pilot and once the progression hole is open it comes out at max rate and bypasses the mixture needle. Or the MJ is too small.
When I had the SI26/26 on my early tune I used to run a drilled MJ to about 165, carb all drilled and it still wasn't big enough. Yours might be running just fine at low rpm but as soon as the revs pick up beyond progression (2mm throttle and lets say over 2500rpm) then you are mostly on the MJ (via the BE3 atomiser). If this is the case I would now fit the biggest MJ I had (150 plus). Or run it without an MJ to test it and make sure it runs totally black after progression.
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Post by sime66 on Dec 13, 2015 13:57:50 GMT
Thanks pxguru; I'll make some plans for more info gathering to find the cause....
1. I can get bigger MJs, maybe here by weekend – will look later. 2. Do you mean running with no jet-stack at all, or stack with no MJ? - Just up the lane? 3. I can go back to doing slower Progression chops; just enough so as not to be wet? - That's why I went to more open/faster tests before. 4. I could try an undrilled air filter, though that seems like a bit of a bodge, rather than the answer. 5. I am still wondering if my CHT sensor is giving me a leak, but I'd notice scary temps when riding about if that was the case. 6. Maybe the 24 carb will end up being better? - I don't want to give up on the 26 yet though; have to factor-in that I'm just not yet very good at doing this before deciding the bits are wrong – some Operator Error involved!? 7. I have BE1, 3, 4 & 5 and E3, but we shouldn't be thinking about that yet should we; I'm not supposed to be on MJ for this. 8. That'll do; I'm guessing now.
I'll have a ponder while I'm doing some other jobs now. It does seem to me that the static setting up, and the slow riding results I'm getting seem to be different from the Progression chop results, so maybe I'm not in the right place with the slide and/or maybe the MJ is too small as well; I understand your thinking, but need a moment to catch up with the logical possibilities to solve it.
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Post by pxguru on Dec 13, 2015 17:06:43 GMT
It does seem like the bottom end is correct based on the feel of it and that the pilot jet number is where it should be. If you get an MJ you dont like or one you have a double of, just put a 1.5mm drill through it. That will do for the test. It is possible that 140 in there is not big enough now the pilot is done. How does it feel at WOT, revving out clean or still spluttering like before?
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Post by sime66 on Dec 13, 2015 18:08:10 GMT
Righto; I'll do the home-made 1.5mm MJ job next. I have no spluttering anywhere in the rev-range, right up to WOT. (It feels lovely all the way - I could have just kept on going 'till it melted or went bang!! ) ..........................(some time later)............... Home-made 1.5mm Main Jet, ready for inspection:
The two jets are a 138 next to the one I made; mine is noticeably bigger. I've looked at it with the loupe and it is very smooth inside. I know it looks like it has muck in it; i did floss it and I'll blow it out with carb cleaner too. I used a series of Dremel tools of increasing diameter, but didn't use a Dremel; I did it by hand. I hope that's good enough for this little task. there is another, bigger Dremel tip (I'm only using the cylindrical ones, not the tapered ones. the last one I used for this measured at 1.4mm and it's free-moving, so 1.5mm is fair to say.
I can make bigger or smaller jets than this one too; I expect one of you chaps has some data somewhere cross-referencing jet size with diameter; they're seems to be info for other jet types, but I haven't found Si yet...
If that's OK, the next question is what sort of riding? Building up to the progression plug chop again, or having a good ride round and keeping an eye on temps, or just seeing if it runs without choking and spluttering?
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Post by pxguru on Dec 14, 2015 3:38:41 GMT
Jet looks just fine. I normally just put a drill bit in a pin vice and do it by hand too. I thought everyone knew.....the size of the MJ is the size in millimeters without the decimal! So in terms of area (flow rate) they get bigger very quickly as the numbers go up. I did think that it was still spluttering on the 140 MJ. You never mentioned that it was now revving out clean before. It should always be spluttering a little at WOT until you get to that part of the carb set up (which is next/now. On a PHBH type needle carb it is possible to do all the set up without any MJ and only fit one at the appropriate point in the procedure). On yours the downside is that if the 140 MJ was too weak the 52/120 pilot jet might now be too rich. Good you were not happy with the feel of the running over the look of the plug, or there might have been a few tears in your future. We will see how it goes now when you report back. By the way, if it does end up on a say 145 MJ its way quicker than it was supposed to be
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