I'm just finishing up before doing a mega-post, but a couple of things spring immediately to mind from what you just wrote:
Your 'kick' and 'power band' are a bit blurred on the Rally - for whatever reason, but it's to do with the shape of your curves; that's why I tried to set your power band start point as lower than the revs for your peak torque, you can do these sort of scooter-specific tweaks yourself now. I think your Dyno and this gear chart are telling us something about your engine and gearing that we haven't quite put our fingers on yet; on mine I understand why I see what I see, and how it compares with numbers, dyno, gear chart, arse-o-meter and gear change points - it all makes sense to me on mine. Maybe that will be true of you Malossi too. The changes I've just made to the Gearbox Visualiser mean that you can now input your own values and tweak your own engine characteristics to make sense of it; it doesn't have to confuse the development of the spreadsheet or this thread, but I would like to get to the bottom of it. That will make sense when I finish the stuff I'm working on now, and do a post soooon...............
This is what I did last night, where the data table is under the output grid for both; I also moved the speed axis over to the left to get the gears aligned between the grid and table, and I added a tyre circumference cell, so it can be used as a stand-alone sheet – this is what I had; the left panel uses my spreadsheet and Dyno data (but you can input your own), and the right panel is for tweaks – gearing AND engine characteristics.
No time to do this justice but the smelly one looks better, offset the 4 gears to line up with the speed from the previous. Then each gear overlap will be consistant. See how it looks.
Plug is a bit too rich. Bung out and watch the mid temp
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
"the smelly one looks better, offset the 4 gears to line up with the speed from the previous" Have you had too much sun?
I think that idea is EVEN SMELLIER! Here’s why:
· You would have to have an RPM scale for each gear. · When you align the speeds (I do understand what you want to see; I could see it as the SMELLY table developed), with the precision of increments we want, you’d have a very tall table. · Even if you were prepared to accept that, the range between ‘kick’ and ‘redline’ is different for each gear (on mine; 26.1KPH in 1st & 74.4KPH in 4th), so even if you did align them at gear-change point, they wouldn’t make sense, between the gears, above and below that point; the scale of the four RPM columns would have to be different. · Those gear changes vary with each scooter, gear set-up, dyno result; mine occur where my results show on my output table (in KPH: 41.0-44.6, 60.3-64.5, 87.2-86.5) – yours and vespasco’s will be different. I do not think it would be possible to produce a blank table where each of us put our own data in and get an acceptable and accurate result, without some major adjustment/customisation for each set of results. You might as well print it and cut the columns out for the ease of use you’ll get trying to do what you suggest. · We haven’t even got an agreed method of establishing power band (and therefore gear changes) between just two sets of results; it only looks doable on my results because they’re fathomable – at what point would you align the gear-changes on vespasco’s output table for example? · The more I think about it, the worse it gets…………………I need a lie down.
I could (and might, just to prove my point when I have an idle moment) spend ages having a go at that, but I reckon it IT'S A STINKER!
****I can see the possibility of using a conversion calc, and adding a speed column (or two for you MPH dinosaurs) into the rpm table to make it easier for you to read if you want to see speed in the body of the table; you ain’t half making this complicated though because then I’ve got 12 different conditional formatting criteria to set up (or is it 48?). – It’s a NIGHTMARE about something SMELLY.
BUT, I’m on with getting this drain drilled as my priority now, so this is relegated to pondering time, which might-well be how best to tackle this now – have a think. (Having said that; these things tend to eat away at me until I’ll get up in the early hours to try something out****. I can normally think these through, but at the moment I think you’re asking too much of a single table, serving all conditions from one blank master that we can all use).
Re: me scoot, which is much more fun, and why we’re here; thanks for input – I’m getting there too with the same conclusions, and narrowing it down as I get closer. It’s going to be cooler next week again though.
Monday Morning: I had a NIGHTMARE about something SMELLY, so got up to tackle it:
There are many reasons I don’t like this, and it is so complicated now, and the rpm scale jumps about – I know it doesn’t look it, but think about it, and consider my reservations from last night; some of which I sorted, and some of which still stand. (Have a think and decide which).
****Here’s the new layout the scale is 10-95MPH in 1MPH increments; I’ve tried to allow for very low and very high revs and a decent redline on a decent scooter, and it will be a bugger to change that now – I must get on with my other engine now, so I’ll bear in mind any more comments you make, but there’ll be no more editing of this for a while (the right-hand side is not formatted yet; it’s a lot of work to redo all the cells and I’ll do it after we’ve agreed the format of the left-hand table):
The smelly way is similar to how I do it manually. There is a better visual of gear overlap instead of getting progressivly bigger. Still pretty clear when there is a problem. Kick needs to be adjusted by each user. Like you say depends on weight as well as everything else. let us have a copy and we'll take it from there.
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
yes i was using my speedo, not the calcs thats why im saying there was room for improvement on my motor, im loosing a little something
but the chart, yes im making more sense of it now thanks.
i just need to determine my power band, etc. its difficult on the Arse-O-meter as there is no 'sudden' pick up, except from when i twist the throttle, from any position below 1/2 throttle really. I guess that the powerband is usable power, from after the point it does not do a lot, upto redline, which comes after the peak (in my case, roughly like you done it in the last graph - even although it was just there as an example)!! and this will be very slightly different in each gear, especially in 4th
So really, i can only guess that my Pinascos powerband is quite broad. starting early, finishing at 6250rpm (power and torque) Very different to the malossi - and to yours too sime
I really dont mind if you use kmph or mph..its easy to convert...but not so easy when i see a speed limit sign a little bit late...thats why i tend to use mph, as our speed signs are still in mph...
Vespasco: Yours makes more sense with a bit of thought and a better understanding of what the curves mean, which is the object of the exercise after all – and developing how we’ll use the chart. I’m only playing about the MPH thing; it’s been a long-standing joke with me all my working life, when I left school my first Engineer was R.E.M.E. and all his calcs were Imperial, whilst I was doing my college and my drawings in Metric. Now I’m the old codger(ish), there’s people much younger than me still using Imperial. Roads in Britain are a bit of an exception; distance and speeds are in Miles, and so should my speedo be, I know. To be honest I think in Miles and MPH, but do all calcs in metric because it’s the only sensible way, and force myself to use KPH because F.F.S. it’s embarrassing with European, Asian, Australasian, clients, that we and the U.S. can’t cope with metric.
Pxguru: I really don’t think we’re gong to be able to have it the way you want, but I do see why you like it. I’m going to press the point again because I don’t think you’ve picked-up on what I’m saying yet, I did try to explain why it will not work as you want it, but maybe it got lost in my messin’ about, so I’ll try to demonstrate more clearly:
In Smelly, the blocks for the gears are the same height because the vertical axis is in ‘rpm’, and each gear has the same rpm range. In terms of speed (In KPH here below), the ranges of each gear (for my results grid) are as follows:
When you align speeds and keep an ‘rpm’ axis (like it would be if Smelly was simply staggered as you’d like to see), the speeds above and below the exact point of alignment are out of sync with the adjacent gear, because by using ‘rpm’ axis you are making different speed ranges fit the same size block of cells; they are not the same size as I have just shown. If you want to align speeds (at which you change gear for example), then to keep the numbers synced and relevant between adjacent gears, you need to use a ‘speed’ vertical axis. With a ‘speed’ vertical axis, the length of the block of relevant data does increase through the gears because the length (the range of relevant data) increases. · My staggered chart with a short range for 1st, increasing in length through the gears is like that because it reflects the reality of it (as shown with ranges in kph above). · My staggered chart also is synced in RPM and speed between all gears. · My staggered chart uses one vertical, linear speed axis.
I have done a cut and paste of what I think you’re hoping to see; I’ll have to repeat what I said last night: · Staggered-Smelly grid only has three points where the numbers can be read across gears – those points marked in Magenta, where I have manually aligned them, above and below they quickly get out of sync because they are artificially stretched or squeezed to make different speed ranges fit in the same physical height (number of cells) block – it doesn’t work. You can’t align them because if they’re the same size they’re different scales. · Staggered-Smelly grid also has a vertical ‘rpm’ axis, which would actually have to be four ‘rpm’ ranges stacked one above the other (and overlapping), which reaches power-band limit, switches to the next block of data, and drops to the lower in the power-band, and then climbs in that mini-axis and switches to the next gear and drops again – in the next axis. (I hope not to have to cut and paste a grid to prove my point; in any case, where they overlap, which gear-grid are you going to use in your axis?).
I made those points on Sunday night (albeit a bit flippantly), but the points I made are still true, and this morning I tried to incorporate your wish to see speed in the grid, but I’m fairly certain you have to have it as they are, which is not the same height, otherwise they will not sync across the gear changes. It was a lot of sussing out to get all three aligned in the same grid, and I actually don’t think what you want is doable; I certainly haven’t yet thought of a way to achieve it and make it make sense – if I thought it was, I'd do it instead of keep making this point.
I do not see how I can make the grid the way you want to see it, and I do not think the grid you want to see would have any practical use because if you have the blocks the same height, you have stretched or squashed them to achieve it, and by doing so, made them to different scales, and irrelevant to each other, except where you arbitrarily align them.
I hope that’s clearer now; I maintain that what I showed this morning is the best you’re going to get (from me, at the moment, unless I have a brainwave), but the more I think about it the more I think I’m right, and the challenge is becoming how to get others to see it, but if you’re convinced otherwise then please try to explain.
This is the cut and pasted grid, which shows the only three points where the speeds align and demonstrates that everywhere else they are out of sync if you want them the same height; this is nonsense to me, and because it’s illogical I don’t even think I can make Excel do it:
I think staggered smelly, plus rpm scale on each would be the best one! The most useful. Far less pretty and extremely difficult to automate but it would show you what you need to know; How many green revs you have when you have just changed up. Less than a few hundred green revs between 3rd and 4th and its going to be harder to ride. More than several hundred and you are wasting gear length. How fast you are actually going is just for show and has little usefulness for tuning purposes. All depends what it is for
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
(my broadband is having a Friday night go-slow; I’ll have to check this in the morning…………….)
Notes: · The rpm range is the same for all gears, and is dictated by the Engine Characteristics of the Input Data. · The Speed range over that given rpm range increases through the gears, as dictated by the gear ratios in the Input data. · It is a fact that the speed columns (the speed range) grow as you go through the gears. · Rpm is not constant at a gear change; it drops. The constant is the speed. Speed has to be the horizontal reference. · The only way of aligning columns is by reference to speed. Conclusion: I understand that it is rpm that is of prime interest, but speed is necessary for the alignment of data between the gears. There is not one point of alignment (A single solitary option to change gear), there are any number of revs (or speeds) at which you could change gear – each represented by a row in the table, and the suitability of that gear change is shown by the colouring. You cannot use rpm to align because it drops. You cannot squeeze the speed columns to make them the same size if you want to align them. So: Thanks for previous feedback, the short reply is its development as a design tool seems to have reached a dead end then; the Gear Visualiser, as it is, has little use for tuning purposes – fair enough, that isn’t necessarily what I had hoped it would end up being anyway; I didn’t really know, but that’s now clarified.
BUT, I’ll take a moment to answer your points for any other readers though; I think vespasco will find this explanation of how my grid works useful too:
This is a screenshot of my grid, showing the gear change between 3rd and 4th:
Any kind of gear visualisation is more than most tuning projects get. Will be a very useful tool either way. In practical terms its usually only the 3rd/4th transition that is the issue. I think you probably have touched on the idea for the 'kick' point in what you said about the magenta box.
"I know from Arse-O-Meter that I can comfortably change up between 80 and 90 kph. (50-56mph - The magenta box on the screnshot)".
The lowest rpm where you can comfortably pull through 4th from, maybe up a slight incline, is the 'kick' point that is useful to us on the chart. So yours is showing wrong on your table. The magenta box is all green. With your long flat Tourers torque curve there is going to be a lot of overlap.
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
The difference between the green power-band zone, and the magenta is subject to the Engine Characteristics tweaks, which I have said are still more vague than the precision of the data manipulation in the table. At present I'm using MD figures to set green zone; we have already acknowledged (in vespasco's discussion) that some tweaking is necessary, but we have not yet defined any method. Do you think that I should change the green zone by adjusting those figures then? I don't think it's as simple as that because a gear change at 7059, 7588, or 8012 are not all equally within the power band; they are the upper and lower limit and the mid-point. As far as 'kick' is concerned; all i can do is refer back a few pages where I tried to get agreement on the definition and setting (as a number in a box) of the four engine charicteristics figures needed for the Input Data. My table is complete, as far as it will go for now; the previous unfinished discussion on the Input Data is something I would still like some input on; it doesn't affect how my table works; just the shading zones.
My broadband is still buggered, so I'm not going to be spending much time on this now; going to get out instead and forget about it.
In my opinion the green zone rpm begins where it starts to pull 3rd or 4th gear comfortably and with force. Hard to explain but you know what I mean. Going to be no formula for this as it depends on all up weight, rolling resistance, wind resistance and all sorts....
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
Where does the green zone start? I agree with the Guru ji It will be different and difficult to know exactly the dynos are a great help. The difference inbetween peak torque and peak power is also usable The peaks from the dyno are certainly usable for upper rpm crossover to redline The lower range, which was pointed out, its really the change between 3rd and 4th that we will tend to look at, more so than 2nd to 3rd, or 1st to 2nd anyway. So where does it start?? Again, its where it starts to pull strongly. The Arse-O-Meter is good guide, checking against the rpm-O-Meter at the same time
I did a little experiment at the weekend Trying to find out , exactly, at what rpm, does my motor start to pull strongly, I done this in 4th.... (i tried in 3rd too but could not really come to a good conclusion, it was all too quick) So in 4th ... @ 3000rpm.... then tried @ 4000rpm, etc The +4600rpm i used as an example was justifiable! (I could improve upon that slighty with only jetting changes although i won't bother) Using that info in your charts is quite useful to see where i should/could be
I like your visualizer as it is. On mine, I've hidden the kmph speeds, (too much info for me to look at) Then quite liked hiding the mph too, leaving only the rpm!
But it is the mph i have to refer to when looking at the gear change to 4th, as, also in my little experiment, i looked at only the mph drop, not using the rpm. Which was minimal..1 or 2 mph only..which also tells me how important it could be for a quick gear change to keep the revs up. Obvious i know but all these things were made much clearer when relating to your visualiser - which was the thing that made me do this little experiment in the first place
I've had little spare time lately. Was good to get out again.
I've been playing with different gear ratios etc and noticed my actual 4th gear rpm-speed is spot on with a 36T gear !!?? (No its not.......i know i'm forgetful sometimes but i'm sure I'd have spotted that. Didn't I sell my 36T to you Sime? Say yes..or I will think Ive gone all 36T on my Pinasco Arghhhh! hahahahaha
Vespasco, I’d already done a revision to the Monster chart on Sunday night to incorporate adjustments for the indefinable/Arse adjustments, but I didn’t post it because I really didn’t want another session of going round in circles with it. I also agree that the Visualiser is easier to use than the Monster, which is more of a design tool, although it transpires that it isn’t really needed as one anyway. I’ll be using the visualiser for my understanding of my gearboxes, rather than the Monster. Although I’ve read your post above a couple of times, my enthusiasm for defining the indefinable has waned somewhat, so I’m just going to post my last one as it was before you posted, and leave it there. I’ve tried to incorporate everything that ‘s been said, and even tried to make allowance for the indefinable, and made a huge table that it seems we won’t use. I might now put the two adjustment Input boxes in the Original User-friendly Visualiser, but I think that’s it.
This is my post, as it was before your post, mainly in reply to pxguru’s last, but trying to include your data too, as an example of the adjustments:
I’ve given that some thought, pxguru (May 21, 2016 at 2:04pm), and I can see that there’s a rev-range above and below my data-generated green power-band, where I am still feeling it is pulling comfortably, and that for mine it is about 200-300rpm, approaching (below) peak torque and beyond (above) peak power. This applies to vespasco’s dyno result when compared to his gearbox visualiser too, though his margin is different because of his different shaped curves, and I haven’t tried to find a figure for his tweak, but don’t think doing so would be too difficult. To enable us to use the Dyno data we have, but still have a tweak which is “Hard to explain; no formula as it depends on all up weight, rolling resistance, wind resistance and all sorts....”, I have introduced an adjustment factor into the input data; this ‘Arse-O-Meter Adjustment’ figure (rpm) is then added to both ends of the green peak power range.
The example below shows my Gearbox Visulaliser, firstly with no Arse-O-meter Adjustment, and then with a 250rpm adjustment, which brings the Dyno and gearbox output table in line with ‘On-the-Road’ feel:
Recent changes are 138MJ and unblocking the slide air (which I'm sort of thinking of as a 'Winter Plug'). I've also got my hands on a cheap 2nd-hand T5 slide (8492.5 - no cut-outs on underside - **just curious;what does the little Progression pocket do? - leans the Progression? might be good**).
I've done lots and lots and lots of long, hilly runs in the warm sunshine, and she is really running lovely; picking up and accelerating quickly, eating up the hills, smooth at all revs, temps all good. Haven't pulled me plug out for a while because all seems so sweet. It has been very warm again this weekend, and I have been getting to a point in each gear (90kph-ish in 3rd, say = 8000rpm), where it just stops revving higher and I have to change up. It's not at a point where I'm riding normally, but I notice it if I hold it open in 2nd or 3rd - just gets to its new lower limit and will rev no higher. 4th still isn't anything special really either, but plenty good for me.
Seems like it's running out of air, so I'm just going to start by cleaning the filter, it was on my list but riding has taken precedence lately, and I know I'm probably rich because it's so warm, so I'm not at all bothered, just mentioning it as I update my progress. If cleaning the filter doesn't improve it i might go down one more on the MJ or back to the AC170, but I don't want to bugger up my temps and it isn't something that's bothering me anyway.
she feels great, and I reckon I could ride all Summer like this - beauty!
(see you in September to do some jobs.....................................)
I finally got round to fitting the Rev Counter on the Headset today; it seems pretty accurate and responsive, so I think it’s going to be worth having. I did a quick filmed run this evening to see if it was on the correct signal frequency with the settings button, and to see where it reckoned my 3rd – 4th gear change might be – when I’m pushing it but not thrashing it. (Should have clipped the GPS on too, but had enough to look at really; wasn’t sure it was going to work at all, so pleased with it).
My max recorded revs was 8400rpm (that’s 3rd), which is 95kph. I’m still not getting a lot of big-revs in 4th, but that’s a different subject (cleaned filter now, and temps are low enough to have another jetting tweak…). I did some screenshots of the headcam recording (below), which shows a 3rd – 4th gear change at 8370rpm (94.7kph), dropping instantly to 7570rpm in 4th (dropping though – or delayed), then a few seconds later showing 6620rpm in 4th before starting to climb again. 6620rpm in 4th is 100kph two seconds after changing up, so changing up there is perfect. I’m going to have a better study of the gear visualiser, but I’d have expected the revs in 4th to drop lower than that, which is probably because the revs dropped and picked up again before the rev counter picked it up; maybe the rev counter could be faster at picking up, but it’s still neat to have. It’s interesting anyway, to be able to compare some of the tables in the last few pages here, with how it works on the road. – 8400rpm change-up is mid-way between the upper limit of my power-band (7900rpm) and my redline (8900rpm).
Here’s a pic of the screenshots of the gear change (hope you can read the rev-counter, temp and time? - I have a big screen):
I'm still mainly playing in the sun now, but still curious though, and finished this tonight because it's forecast to be a bit wet for a few days now.....................................
My first reaction is that the temperature is too low. I see 112 C and 106 C. When giving it some this should be more like 140 C and only ever go down to 112 when on tickover for a long time.
btw, looks like your speedo is only reading something like 5mph over at 60mph. Pretty good
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
-- Cleaning the filter got me another 500rpm back (sort of), so the first of my two posts above is covered by that; I’m now getting to where I want to be before needing to change up. --
I thought you’d pick up on the temps from last night if you read it before I got round to updating it this morning, though. That was the first run at any speed, and Progression temp is still always low, but my Pilot is as lean as I can go (42/160) – I think that’s due to drilling the carb. I did also notice my tick over is too high again now (1400rpm, should be 10-1100?), so Mix and Idle will have to have another tweak in the warmer weather and now the filter is freed-up again. This wasn’t really an engine-test run though, it was to see if the rev counter was working and giving-out sensible numbers that are helpful. I’m sort of seeing if I can do anything with the numbers now; just thinking about it all. First thing this morning, I had a look at another couple of gear changes from last night too, paying attention to the temps, and to the speed (from the revs) before, during and after 3rd-4th gear change. The one above (last night) was the first bash before it was warmed-up properly, these next two are after a bit more of a run – the first one is uphill into a slight cross headwind (where the speed (red) drops for a few seconds after the gear change), and the second is with a cross tailwind (where the speed continues to rise evenly):
I’ll do some screenshots and data later, but on a 3km dual carriageway run this morning I got:
8770rpm (99kph/62.1mph) in 3rd, and 7,590rpm (115.2kph/72.1mph) in 4th.
Highest GPS Speed was 108kph though, so there’s a loss between engine revs and recorded speed – clutch/tyres?). Highest temp was only 133ºC, I don’t know running temps until I look at the film; there’s too many things to keep an eye on at once. WSW is a cross tailwind, and the run was about 3km slightly undulating WOT, leaving it in 3rd as long as it would take it (or I would take it really).
I decided to do a run at a sensible ambient temp before changing any jetting, but as we both suspected (in varying degrees) a little downjet might be OK.
Very interesting experiment. An actual cut open plug from this run would have been useful. I susspect it is at least double over rich for 15 degC ambient.
From your chart you can see the extra cooling that higher revs in 3rd gives. As 4th gear starts to pull the fan has slowed down from 3rd peak rpm but head is still cool, then you can see the heat take hold again from pulling hard (ish) in 4th. This is why water cooling is way faster (IF it is set up right).
I think your gearing is right for your needs. Just need a bit more power to pull it, that running one jet leaner should give.
BTW whats that app you run on your phone for the big display?
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
The fan speed explains the heat rise nicely; I’ve had a bit of a mental block with that before, thinking 4th is going to get hotter as speed and revs increase, but it isn’t so, as the 3rd temps show, I just need the power to get it up a bit. Jetted right, the combustion fuel/air ratio is the same throughout. To try to explain that first spike, I was picturing a high revving 3rd, suddenly getting less fuel at lower revs after the gear change, and getting hotter as a result; I'm still not explaining that well, so I'll forget it and think about the fan anyway.
I do concede the need for a tweak, and will downjet the main to 135, and tweak the mix leaner to get the Progression temp higher again too, and do this test again; maybe next Sunday for another fast run recording everything. I have had higher rpms before, so maybe more like 9000 and 8000 as an idea – I should see (GPS) 100kph in 3rd and about 115kph in 4th. Don’t forget that any jetting changes have to suit my regular long, hilly runs very early in the morning as well, often with an overnight bag, and when it can still be much cooler than the ambient temps we’re talking about here lately; it’s barely a month since I was riding with muffs on and frost in the mornings. When I’m climbing I tend to try to get it as fast as I can and change up to see if it can handle the next gear, but if I’m thinking about temp I’d be better keeping the revs up and fan spinning in a lower gear to keep the engine cool.
The gearing ponderings are for understanding really, not tweaking – not yet. We said before to forget about a 22T clutch unless I’m getting 8100rpm in 4th, or less than 1000rpm between 3rd and 4th, which isn’t quite happening; I’m thinking about the bigger picture. I’ve just picked up a 65T primary cluster too in case it might be handy, and am curious how P2 gearing would be in either engine – just for curiosity. Same curiosity about 35/36T 4th. I can do the calcs and compare the numbers, but knowing how different gear ratios work, with different power and different engine types, on the road isn’t something I can picture easily. I know also that a high-revving ‘Beast 2’ might want a 20T clutch; I just need to get all these snippets of info together and make some sense of it. Sometimes a shared pondering can lead to pages of debate and info exchange, and sometimes I go off on a tangent that goes nowhere; doesn’t stop me thinking about stuff though.
What we really need is an app to record all the (rpm/temp/gps) data in one place; save me spending Sunday morning doing 50-odd screenshots of a film and trying to read the gauges to make a chart.
Anyway, happy days; I’m happy with it, even as it is, but giving it a tweak again, with a view to getting some slightly better numbers and a better picture of how temps will go in 4th with a full(er) rev range. Still more emphasis on riding and enjoying it now, rather than endless tweaking, but the curiosity remains……
Cheers for the link Sime...gonna download on my moby and well see what my dog can do (still no working speedo on mine so i aint got a clue lol)....could start a comp on what we think she,ll do...find out..then start too tinker...which means a lot of pawing over this thread...soon as the roads are dry get ready too be tech support buddy lol
You can do the pawing; I’m on me ‘olidays ‘till September! Actually questions on your thread will serve as good revision for me, to see if I’ve learned anything doing this build; hopefully I’ll remember and not have to wade back much, which you’ll be doing anyway – I’ll give you a clue to start you off though: your carb setting up crib sheet is on page 5. I don’t imagine you’ll get too bogged down with the finery, but it’s all there when you need it.
Si 26/26 (drilled to 2mm), Polini vortex, RamAir filter, and.... 48/160 – 45/160 - 42/160 (wound in ¾ turn to 1½**) 140 – 138 - 135 BE3 – BE3+1 – BE3+2 AC160 – AC170 04(Obstr) – 04 – ?
Weather conditions: Precip: Cloud (40%), Dry Pressure: 999mb Temp: 13ºC Wind: NW – 6-13 kph (NW is still cross tailwind, but from sheltered side, so pretty insignificant at such light wind speed).
Quick Run Result Summary: 8750rpm (99kph/62.0mph) in 3rd, and 7410rpm (112.5kph/70.4mph) in 4th. – max temp 150°C* *(I see 150°C on the film @ 7310rpm 4th & 137°C @ 7410rpm (cooler, higher = √), but CHT saved max 141°C, so unsure).
**Pilot check list: 1) It will start first kick when it is hot after it has been stopped for 5 minutes. YES 2) When closing throttle from very high rpm after being thrashed hard, it will get down to tickover without too much delay or hesitation. YES 3) When riding at 2mm throttle it feels right and doesn't cool down the CHT too much. STILL COOL (I think this is because of the 2mm carb drilling - too much for Pilot now?) 4) The mixture screw is at least 1.5 turns out. = 1½ Tickover = 1200rpm by gauge; still seems high though. IDLE = 2
I expected an improvement after the mix-leaning tweaks, and can’t really think why it might be that they are pretty much the same as before (only the lower cross tailwind and air pressure), or what to do other than try a 132MJ, maybe back to the AC170, and maybe wind the Mix in another ¼ turn, maybe with a freshly cleaned filter – surely not again. As I managed to slip a run in during the week, I’ll probably try some of that for Sunday. I went round the lane here to see what my Idle and 5 minute start were like when I got back (1200rpm and 1st kick), so probably not much point looking at the plug now it’s idled there, but I’ll have a quick look when I change the MJ.
I could have stayed in 3rd all the way on the dual carriageway; it wasn’t going to go any higher than 8800rpm; I even changed back down after plenty of WOT in 4th to see if that would get me 9000rpm in 3rd, but it wasn’t having it. An MD run now would be slightly lower than my best in the Spring now; BTW highest was 8927rpm on best MD run. I’ve got to say that I don’t really care about this; it’s no pleasure just hanging on, shaking about at 110kph/70mph anyway, so I won’t be riding there through choice, and it feels great at the sort of revs/speeds I do ride it, AND temps are not a worry, which I like. I also did the 16% hill climb, staying just in 2nd, which felt better; I’ll check the film, but I got only 110°C @ 7540rpm in 2nd on the hill (59kph/37mph) - that's after the hot dual carriageway run. I’ll look at the film of dual carriageway and hill later to see if there’s anything worth showing (film or charts). I also have a film and chart from the hill climb before, with the 138MJ; it shows the temp jump at upshift nicely, several times, but not much else really; maybe I’ll post them both for comparison………..
Or maybe I’ll just cruise up & over the moors at a pleasant pace for a pasty!
I think you are having trouble setting this up because you are not so confident in your ability. I feel you know the answers now but just reluctant to implement. The carb drilling just makes more fuel available to the jet (lowering the pressure on the upstream side) this means a smaller jet is required to provide a similar flow to before. On your check list the progression is still not up to temperature (should be at least 120 C when cruising on progression) and this normally means your pilot jet is still too big. Once onto progression the mixture screw has little effect. So if its cold on progression then the pilot jet big number is too small or in your case on a 42/160 pilot already the small number is too big, the 42 will need to come down a bit more....maybe 40/130? This is probably why the mixture screw is not easy to adjust. To check the pilot jet is in the zone; Wound all the way out it should smoke and splutter a bit at tickover, wound all the way in and out quarter turn it should run terrible, revving up on its own and not coming down and other similar issues. If a pilot jet doesn't do this it is the wrong size. Once the pilot jet is right you might not need the BE3+2.
There is interaction between the progression and the MJ when crusing. If you put in the 132MJ keeping the 42/160 then try the progression test again it might be better. If not then it is smaller pilot.
Don't be scared of too weak. You will recognise it quickly if it is. All in all sounding great though. Nothing much wrong with a DR180 that will go off the clock
btw, I have a 50/120 pilot and 130 MJ in my tourer now. The 138 MJ was way too big.
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
I’ve got to dash out for the morning, and you’ve slipped an edit in while I was replying, so I’ll have to look at this better this evening.
I did realise the Progression temp was too low, but I thought I had the leanest Pilot already, and was getting a bit concerned with just tweaking my mix leaner to compensate, and changing my main jet stack when I could see the issue was earlier than that. I’ve got a 40/130 here already, but the table I’m using shows it as richer than 42/160; I do see it’s a smaller fuel though. I’ll do the 132MJ run and then Progression temps first though, and then the 40/130 and Mix test/re-tweak if still cool. I wouldn’t say I’m scared of going too weak; but it is already great to ride now, and when making the most of my scootering time, I’d rather plan a jaunt out with it as it is, than spend a morning in local lanes fiddling and testing, or having to stop and get my box of jets out when I’m out exploring. – I actually don’t really need another 10kph top speed, other than to show it will do it. Having said that, this is about getting the Pilot right, which was bugging me, and the 40/130 was an option I didn’t realise I had, so will get on with it.
I did these Youtube uploads yesterday, so I’m going to post them anyway ‘cos they’re already done. I know you’ll find the top speeds a bit tame for you, and it does still confirm the temps too low, but it really feels nice to ride like this, on the sort of roads I’m riding most of the time:
Quick Sprint Between Roundabout and U-Turn:
Quick Sprint Between Villages (slight uphill and cross headwind):
3km WOT, Not Special and Roadworks (undulating, slight cross tailwind):
Hill Climb in 2nd, and why I can’t bomb round lanes even at 5am: (You never know what’s round the corner, or how fast or wide it’s gonna be)
Thanks for advice; I do see there is a little room for improvement, and I’ll have a better read and a jetting tweak when I get in this evening.
(I now see you’ve posted on your Tourer thread – noted: Fuel Economy! – I’m rushing to post before I have to go out; I’d be better to return to all this later…………)
Quick Run Result Summary: 8980rpm (101.6kph/63.6mph) in 3rd, and 7010rpm (106.4kph/66.6mph) in 4th before seize – max temp 164°C (max running temp on film was 150/152°C - have yet to locate the 164°C recorded afterwards, anyway)
***SEIZE***
I DEFINITELY DIDN’T NEED THAT EXTRA 10KPH!
It’s too early to annoy the neighbours by taking anything apart to have a look, which I’ll do at 8:00am, and post some photos.
I have film too, so I’ll have better numbers later. I know I saw 8940rpm in 3rd, and revs dropped as I went over that first incline on the dual carriageway, so I stayed in 3rd; as the revs picked up again the other side I waited until they were, I think 8850ish, then changed up to see what I could get in 4th, then after a very short WOT in 4th it seized. – Obviously that temp rise between 3rd and 4th we were talking about. I’m not sure if it stopped; I had the clutch in and was coasting, maybe it cut out and fired again, but anyway I rode off the slipway, and it cut out as my revs dropped. I waited a few minutes and rode it home in 2nd – less than half a mile. I went round the back to see if it would tick over; it won’t, but it fired up again, so I just staggered home, and it cut out again as soon as the revs dropped when I got here. – She’s parked-up in the garden, ready for inspection.
I made too many changes in one go, I was impatient with this faffing about for revs I don’t want, even thinking I’d put it back how I want it after I’ve got the numbers we’re looking for; I’ll put my hand up to that; but when she’s sorted next time I’ll stay on the safe side of lean, and sod the 10kph between 105 and 115kph. I have spares of everything, except that barrel; I do hope that ain’t buggered; there’s time and expense there – the rest I can live with. I also have ‘Old Faithful’ ready to put in if the jobs going to be a long ‘un. I’ll decide plan of action after inspection…………..
At least I got LOTS of miles in up to now, eh.
More later………………………
I’ve downloaded and clipped the film, which is uploading to Youtube now. I didn’t at the time, and I still don’t see from the film, any silly temps before the seize; it only went up to mid 140ºCs at about 7000rpm in 4th, and it was only 100kph when it seized – I haven’t located where the max temp was yet. I’m not even sure my back wheel locked up, but I did get the clutch in quickly, so can’t be sure. Clutching at straws, but could I have just melted something electric? CDI? As I rode it back it was a bit like it felt when I had a dodgy CDI before; I’ll do the measurements on that before I take the head off. – I’ve found the limit of something anyway!!
8980rpm in 3rd - 121-122°C (the 134°C is the max for the run it flashes up, not the max at that point; it's clear on the film when you know how the CHT works):
Unless EGT would have shown something going silly from too long, too high in 3rd, I don't see how these temps gave me a problem. I was watching the gauge and just glancing at speed; I was ready to take evasive action. Still clutching at straws, but maybe it was something else - I'll have a look in an hour.........
That is a shame but from what you did all at once, hardly surprising. Now, there's a lesson. i thought the deal was just drop the MJ to 132 and see how it ran on the 42/160 pilot? When I dropped my MJ the pilot needed upping from the interaction which was lost.
What happend this morning was suicide, changing to AC170 will weaken the WOT mix, changing MJ to 132 obviously weakens the WOT mix, changing the pilot to 40/130 also weakens the WOT mix. When getting near to optimal is one thing at a time.
Sounds pretty minor. Not even a big black line down the road. I really doubt you have done any damage at all. If it has plenty of compression just put a new plug in it and run it. You don't need to see inside. let the marks wear off a bit before looking
Edit; I guess you didn't feel it running weak or hear it making the "I'm going to seize up soon" pinking noise. A standard heat seize happens when the EGT is over the 2 stroke oil temp limit. I have found to my own frustration that when it is way too weak CHT is too slow to see it.
PX200E with 221 Malossi, max power at 8300rpm, VHSH30CS, 175 main jet PX200E Tourer, tuned original barrel, SIP road II, SI26/26 135 main jet, vortex 1050cc Triumph ST 600cc Honda CBR
Too late regarding ride it to smooth it off before looking; 8:00am I was out there because I need to wash up now and do some other stuff with my day, and the forecast is for rain tomorrow, so I’m not playing with it in the garden in the wet this way either, so I'm at a point to pause for thought and prognosis.
I’ve already had it apart before you posted, so I might as well show it now. I don’t really know for sure, but I’d say, head is fine, piston is buggered, and (I hope) barrel will be OK with a bit of TLC. You can see the plug too, which is a very strange colour, and beads of something melted on it (and the piston – round the exhaust!) by the looks of it. Looks like exhaust got a lot hotter, quicker than the head – this ties in with your edit, while I was composing this. I did CDI and Stator readings first, and found some anomalies which gave me hope, but when I looked at the plug that seemed irrelevant and obvious what it was, so I took the head off thinking I could look at barrel at BDC, but as two studs came out anyway, I thought I might as well have the barrel off too.
Here it all is; I think it speaks for itself, but any prognosis or advice of where to go from here will be appreciated. My main concern is the barrel.
(Yes I know it was too many things, but I was just getting browned-off with the continual tweaking, so thought I’d get it sorted. I thought I’d see CHT warn me before anything happened; it was what I was concentrating on!)
Whether the lesson learned is to go in slower step towards optimum, or just to keep the sensible side of optimum, I’ll weigh-up later, but I know what my instinct has always told me.