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Post by bignico2411 on Jul 28, 2015 12:18:59 GMT
My '84 PX usually starts third or fourth kick (sometimes with a little choke) from cold. Ride to the shop for a pint of milk, in and out in a couple of minutes and she fires up again no problem. However, if I've got a fill and had to queue and the scoot's been idle for 5 mins or so, it can be a right bugger to start again. To the point where I've had to roll a fag, have a smoke and then try kicking her again. She'll eventually start again and run fine, but this is becoming a pain in the arse. Is this a common 'ailment'. The garage I use suggested picking up a secondhand electric starter motor, but I prefer the kickstart. That said, my right leg is now twice the size of the left, so I'm going to have to do something!!
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Post by henri on Jul 28, 2015 13:05:14 GMT
maybe slightly rich on pilot jet/starter circuit in carb , slightly off timing ,allsorts , a new plug n general check over is where i'd start .H
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Post by bryno on Jul 28, 2015 13:50:03 GMT
It's not usual, mine kicks up 3rd kick when cold and 1st or second warm, any more and I consider it broken!
Should be something simple as henri suggests, i'd also give the carb and filter a good clean and do check the float needle is cutting off the fuel when the bowl is full, if not it can flood the cylinder when standing making it harder to start.
You can't easily retrofit electric start BTW.
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Post by bignico2411 on Jul 28, 2015 14:01:11 GMT
Thank you, gents, that gives me somewhere to start. Weather permitting, I'll get at her this weekend
bryno, carb and filter clean is within my competence, but will the Haynes show me how to check the float needle?
apparently my scoot had an electric start, but it was disabled before I bought her
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Post by pxguru on Jul 28, 2015 14:57:01 GMT
I think everyone has already on the same page with this one. Not needing the choke so much, means it is running too rich. Mixture screw might have vibrated out too much. Very difficult to tell if the float needle is slightly worn too far, best to just change it if its been in a long time.
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Post by henri on Jul 28, 2015 15:07:00 GMT
as bryno n guru says , my 1st thought was too rich , mines 1st/2nd kick from cold with choke , 1st kick rest of day ,anymore n i start looking for the problem . H
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Post by rab on Jul 29, 2015 6:11:56 GMT
Without reading all the coms coz its too early and I haven't got my glasses on are you turning fuel tap off when you stop if not that could the problem it's flooding
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Post by bignico2411 on Jul 29, 2015 8:15:44 GMT
Without reading all the coms coz its too early and I haven't got my glasses on are you turning fuel tap off when you stop if not that could the problem it's flooding Rab, I very occassionally forget but, as a rule, no, I turn the fuel tap off. In fact, I've got into the habit of turning off the fuel tap about 20 secs before I turn the ignition off to reduce the risk of flooding if I'm doing a quick start again. I'm going with a carb, jets and filter clean at the weekend, with maybe a fiddle at the mixture screw. Hopefully it'll be a simple as that.
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Post by bryno on Jul 29, 2015 12:56:17 GMT
It won't flood with the fuel left on unless there is a problem with the needle valve, so as said, I'd change that £5 part anyway.
If no joy cleaning filter, checking mix screw is set right (that wont make a huge difference) I'd check choke is working ok and then be looking at compression, as the rings wear they get harder to start, but you'd need to be on high miles to wear them that much.
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Post by bignico2411 on Jul 29, 2015 13:26:48 GMT
It won't flood with the fuel left on unless there is a problem with the needle valve, so as said, I'd change that £5 part anyway. If no joy cleaning filter, checking mix screw is set right (that wont make a huge difference) I'd check choke is working ok and then be looking at compression, as the rings wear they get harder to start, but you'd need to be on high miles to wear them that much. I've just been on the beedspeed site and note there are both 3 and 4-sided float needles. Yet another stupid question, do I need to check or is there a standard for an '84 PX?
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Post by bignico2411 on Jul 29, 2015 13:30:31 GMT
bryno, please disregard last question. Had I read the spiel against each needle type, I'd have seen the answer! *fits hat with large 'D', goes and stands in the corner*
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Post by henri on Jul 29, 2015 15:37:35 GMT
4 for spaco n dell slab carbs , 3 sides for dell shb carbs , no need for dunce hat ,ive had lad in local scooter shop swear blind the 4's fit all dell's ,didnt believe him but still cost me 4 quid to be proved right , H
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Post by bignico2411 on Jul 30, 2015 7:59:06 GMT
4 sides it is, thanks H! I'll not put away the dunce hat just yet, I haven't tackled the job yet!!!
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 15, 2015 12:43:32 GMT
Ok, update. Stripped and cleaned carb, replaced float needle and gaskets, put it all back together and started second kick on the choke. Had a quick spin then parked up. At differing intervals, I've tried kicking it again but no joy and strong smell of petrol. Help!!
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 15, 2015 13:12:23 GMT
Finally started again, but that was at least half and hour after it had last turned over. Is it worthwhile replacing the spark plug?
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Post by henri on Aug 15, 2015 13:40:23 GMT
wont do any harm to fit a new plug ,but am still thinking your problems fuel related , as in too rich a mixture ,H
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 15, 2015 14:00:10 GMT
autolube is disabled, H, I just chuck 100ml into every 5l manually when I fill her. Should I try running her a little leaner?
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Post by henri on Aug 15, 2015 16:17:39 GMT
100ml of oil to 5 litres is the right ratio ,2% , when we talk of rich/lean its the ratio of fuel to air the carbs supplying to the engine not oil mix ok, from your symptoms we all seem to be suspecting a over-rich mixture , this can be caused by a flooding carb from leaky needle valve or holed float , or a mis-adjusted carb or over large pilot jets, not a easy thing to diagnose over the tinterweb . H
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 15, 2015 18:09:25 GMT
Thanks for the explanation, H, I'm learning here if nothing else. Is it worth fiddling with the air mixture screw? I put it in back in tight (but not over-tight) and then opened it one and a half turns like the guy on youtube said. I'm starting to think this might be a garage job!
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Post by henri on Aug 16, 2015 8:32:48 GMT
not if ya willing to learn an use here for info , nxt step take off the filter from top of carb ,theres 2 brass screw heads with holes revealed , thats ya jets , unscrew the smaller of the 2 an read the tiny numbers on it , something like 45/160 or 40/120 it will look like , report back here with numbers an we can advise on wether a smaller pilot jet is likely ,ok , H
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 16, 2015 15:24:23 GMT
Thanks, H, I really want to be able to sort these things myself. Ok, pilot jet is 45/140 and main jet is 96
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Post by henri on Aug 17, 2015 9:20:00 GMT
lmlocgb.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1707 , jetting chart here , nxt leanest to 45/140's a 38/120 , but i'd probably jump down to a 45/160 an see what happens , that n the 45/160 will be easier to find an i'd prob have 1 kicking around ,as the 45/160's the stock 1 for a px150 , px125's a 45/100 , ok ,H
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 17, 2015 12:08:42 GMT
Cheers H, just checked on Beedspeed and they list a Dellorto Si 45/160 idle jet for £6.50. Is that about right? And is idle jet and pilot jet the same thing?
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 20, 2015 18:58:35 GMT
Ordered a 45/160 from Beedspeed, but they sent me a 55/160. I've e-mailed them to ask for the correct one but, out of curiosity, would the 55/160 have done the job? Is it leaner again than a 45/160?
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Post by vespasco on Aug 20, 2015 19:21:54 GMT
Idle/pilot are the same yes 45/160 would be leaner yes But i would check everything else first, especially if you a totally stock set up. It should work. Which to me points to the things everybody mentioned at the start of the thread. With luck it may just need a tweak on the idle mix screw at the back of the carb. Has it got the spring on it, to prevent it from moving? Its sounds a relatively simple fix, which im sure youd be able to do yourself Best of luck
The 55/160 would be a lot richer than the 45/160
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 20, 2015 19:32:04 GMT
Idle/pilot are the same yes 45/160 would be leaner yes But i would check everything else first, especially if you a totally stock set up. It should work. Which to me points to the things everybody mentioned at the start of the thread. With luck it may just need a tweak on the idle mix screw at the back of the carb. Has it got the spring on it, to prevent it from moving? Its sounds a relatively simple fix, which im sure youd be able to do yourself Best of luck The 55/160 would be a lot richer than the 45/160 Thanks and thanks! Yes, everything is stock (bar a Sito plus exhaust, but this issue was around before the exhaust was changed) and the air mixture screw has a spring. Which way with a tweak, inward towards body of scoot or outward? And should I fit the leaner idle jet first? I'd like to be able to do the simple things myself. Was chuffed that I managed a carb strip, clean and re-assemble successfully, but this starting when warm issue is getting on my tits!!!
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 23, 2015 14:57:10 GMT
well lads, it appears the leaner idle jet has done the trick. I say appears as I've been dodging rain, so not had a chance at a proper run out, but twice around the block, parked up, had a fag, started again 2nd kick. Had some lunch, back out, started 3rd kick. I'll report back once the weather stops acting the b*ll*cks but I think we're sorted. Thanks to all for info and advice, very much appreciated
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 25, 2015 18:49:09 GMT
Alas, gents, I spoke too soon, problem remains ( Started this morning third kick, thought 'happy days', and rode into work (only about a 3 mile journey). Started third or fourth kick when I came out to go home for lunch. Was parked up for 3/4 of an hour, took about a minute of sporadic kicking to get the bugger to start again. When I came home tonight, I got changed and went to start scoot again (still warm). Nada, nowt, feck all. Swore loudly and was about to start tinkering when the jolly old rain came. Some observations/info that might help diagnosis: When I stripped the carb, there was fuel in the float bowl. I put this down to the float needle being worn, but could the float itself need replacing? When the fuel tap is turned off, the scoot continues to run for about a minute. I don't know if this is excessive or normal The throttle twist grip does not snap back. Embarrassingly, I'd not noticed this before until a fellow scooterist mentioned checking it today. Doh!! Once the scooter does start, it runs fine, no stalling, misfiring , losing power etc. Idling is a little off, but a tweak will sort that. What next, lads? This is starting to do my head in, help!!
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Post by sime66 on Aug 25, 2015 19:03:06 GMT
One of the first things I asked on this forum was about difficult starting when warm, and I went through all of the possibilities for a good year of always knowing whenever we went anywhere I was going to be the Numpty who wouldn't start when we set off again. I haven't read all of this thread, and I'm sure it must have been mentioned above, but new rings was the eventual solution for the problem – it's worth a mention anyway.
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Post by bignico2411 on Aug 25, 2015 19:14:46 GMT
sime, forgive my mechanical stupidity, but do you mean piston rings? If so, this sounds like a job way beyond my hugely limited know-how. Is it a big/expensive job?
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