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Post by fredperrybruce on Jul 26, 2015 17:20:10 GMT
Hi all,,,
Friend called me up today saying hes scooter has broken down on side of road and he couldn't get the scoot to move when changing into gear!!
Brought the scooter round to my garage after a long walk in the rain,, I took the clutch cover off too find the clutch missing all the rivets holding the thing together (Newer Cosa Type 7 spring) Reg 53 plate Disk) which is now stopping me taking the thing out as the clutch bell just spins on itself,, Also the flywheel side woodruff key has made the slot it sits in bloody huge so all in all my friend is having to buy a new clutch and crank!! which he's not aware of yet..
So the problem I'm having is I cannot for the love of me get the clutch nut undone to take the engine apart, tried putting the flywheel back on and using the flywheel holder then tugging the hell out the clutch nut but the bleeder just won't budge!! Any suggestions anyone Please
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me
High Number
Posts: 105
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Post by me on Jul 26, 2015 21:01:49 GMT
Your gonna have to split the motor to do the crank anyway and clear all the bits of broken rivets from the box so once you you split it you'll be able to get the clutch off the crank - to undo a seized clutch nut i usually drill them - a 3mm drill bit into the nut - then maybe a 4mm to make it easier - you can do two holes on opposite sides to weaken it and then chisel the nut apart and then once its spilt you'll be able to knock the crank through and the clutch will come off.
PS remember to centre punch before drill
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Post by henri on Jul 27, 2015 12:26:46 GMT
an remember to put a bit of tape round drill so your not drilling on into crank , tho as its scrap it wont matter that much , an i find stuck clutch nuts usually give up when hit hard enuff with a cold chisel ,if still stuck with a spinning clutch bell ive a set of old plates an can weld 2 together an make a clutch holding sort of tool for ya , ive already got 1 for the other type of clutches so fancy a cosa 1 to have a "set" . H
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Post by fredperrybruce on Jul 27, 2015 17:54:53 GMT
Cheers guys all sorted,,, took a huge drill but and drilled straight down one side then pooped the stubborn thing out fewwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!
Can the clutch be re-riveted with a spot of weld for good measure??? It's a shame to throw away it only has a few slightly enlarged rivet holes where I tried jamming a hex key in to hold the clutch together when trying to get the thing out . Cheers
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Post by henri on Jul 27, 2015 18:25:59 GMT
if your rivets arent a close tight fit in the holes it will rip apart again in use , either re-drill n get bigger rivets or get a new cush drive/basket , a spot of weld would probably work but it wouldnt be a 100% definite fix , H
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me
High Number
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Post by me on Jul 28, 2015 7:52:31 GMT
I would'nt either the price of a new Cosa clutch basket is nothing compared to another rebuild.... it is actually a common problem have had about 6 or 8 in the past few years through the workshop, all with broken rivets.... SIP have the upgraded baskets (banded and welded rivets)
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Post by pxguru on Jul 28, 2015 15:18:47 GMT
Good work with getting it off. Stick with putting in a new basket. I have found they all break but just take varying amounts of time. Funny how scooters are always a bit plus and minus. I have one of these baskets in my Polossi. www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+basket+mmw+superstro_93245000 Been in longer than I can remember (maybe 3000 miles now) and no issues. I had an idea to get a bit little more power out of it, which seemed to work fine, really happy, going like a train, 84mph on GPS first time out.....then the clutch started slipping, just a little! New set of XXXL springs on order. When get round to putting them in it will be the first time its been out, so we'll see how super strong this basket really is. I'll post some pictures. |
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Post by pxguru on Aug 11, 2015 17:24:14 GMT
Finally got around to fix the slipping clutch. That SIP superstrong basket really is. About 3000 miles and no damage at all, very impressed. Clutch plates dont look quite the same as when they went in but the basket is not even marked. Expensive but fully recommended. Not ridden it yet as its been raining all day but it feels ok. The XXXL springs are quite a bit stiffer on the lever than the XXL springs but only about the same as a set of springs in an old style 7 spring 4 plate clutch. Going to need some harder clutch plates though. I put the same carbon type in again. Any ideas? As always new woodruff key, nut and washer and tightend with my 2 foot bar!    |
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Post by henri on Aug 11, 2015 18:10:24 GMT
wow thats some deformation on the plate tangs ,surprised they werent catching an dragging , guess with no notches in basket to catch on it was ok, they must be quality steel those sip baskets an tangs made softer/sacrificial ,good engineering from the germans ,again , getting to be a habit of theres . H
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Post by pxguru on Aug 12, 2015 15:26:37 GMT
I think the same, that is made from some proper tough metal. Going to need to have a re-think, those springs are too hard on the clutch lever. More than 5 minutes in traffic and its hurting to pull in.
What's the best non-carbon plates anyone has used?
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Post by henri on Aug 12, 2015 16:51:25 GMT
ive always gone with surflex ,not most expensive but always fitted n worked , but then i'm not putting the bhp thru em you are .have you thought of dog leg levers as it changes the point ya hand/joints are when pressures on em ,less painful , or extending clutch arm ,5-10mm extra leverage makes a big difference ,tho cables inner rubs on adjuster an dont last as long , H
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Post by fredperrybruce on Aug 12, 2015 19:21:23 GMT
Still waiting on this b*st**d clutch & crank to come through the post!!! hopefully weekend and I'll find out if a older clutch fits a newer type clutch cover???
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Post by vespasco on Aug 13, 2015 17:10:18 GMT
My BGM plate are due for a change soon. Not necessarily because the corks are worn but, like Guru ji, the tangs are mullered by a high quality, high carbon basket. I figure theres a few more miles to had from them yet. I didnt really want the bgm ones again as they havent lasted too long tbh, so asked SCK for a quality alternative. They suggested the same BGM ones...obviously  BGM8084KT Another reply from SCK was... "The best exchange for them are the Adige Cosa 2 plates ! " Quality price - quality product?? It would be nice to find some steel tangs/plates that are a little harder, so they last a bit longer. Not too hard so they damage the basket. I have the BGM $uper$trong clutch which comes with XL springs (x 10) which i compared with a stock cosall clutch and they felt very much the same, nice and easy. XL are rated @ 6.5N/mm. Here... Scroll down for a chart comparison between springs. www.bgm-tuning.com/shop/clutch-bgm-superstrong-made-in-germany-cnc-machined-10-springs-cosa2-type-vespa-cosa2-px-from-1995-23-teeth/I also have a new woodruff key, o ring, 250ml of SAE30 and a shouldered nut ready, but interestingly - no washer recommended for the BGM! Torque to 65Nm So carbon plates?  Worth it? Do you have to use different oil? Ill be trying the Adige plates next. |
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Post by henri on Aug 13, 2015 20:38:15 GMT
in smallie world ,bgm = equivalent quality as better price but budget-ish price , not used but reccomends lean me to say "go bgm" , plates are "consumables" , so long as they do what they should for a reasonable time, well ,what ya askin for ,gold plated rockin horse poo from the moon , sorry am dwunk ,will get me coat n leave now , but still , sorry door hit me on the behind as i left then ,H
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Post by fredperrybruce on Aug 16, 2015 19:20:47 GMT
Ok folks ,,,, spent the day (11 hours) in total today rebuilding a mates PX engine and to answer the question "Can you use a Early 3 plate clutch with a later-newer clutch cover" YES YOU CAN!!!! Tried and tested today So Henri this time RAY from allstyles was wrong!! |
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Post by vespasco on Aug 17, 2015 16:01:35 GMT
Tfft  |
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Post by pxguru on Aug 17, 2015 17:18:57 GMT
My BGM plate are due for a change soon. Not necessarily because the corks are worn but, like Guru ji, the tangs are mullered by a high quality, high carbon basket. I figure theres a few more miles to had from them yet. I didnt really want the bgm ones again as they havent lasted too long tbh, so asked SCK for a quality alternative. They suggested the same BGM ones...obviously BGM8084KT Another reply from SCK was... "The best exchange for them are the Adige Cosa 2 plates ! " Quality price - quality product?? It would be nice to find some steel tangs/plates that are a little harder, so they last a bit longer. Not too hard so they damage the basket. I have the BGM $uper$trong clutch which comes with XL springs (x 10) which i compared with a stock cosall clutch and they felt very much the same, nice and easy. XL are rated @ 6.5N/mm. Here... Scroll down for a chart comparison between springs. www.bgm-tuning.com/shop/clutch-bgm-superstrong-made-in-germany-cnc-machined-10-springs-cosa2-type-vespa-cosa2-px-from-1995-23-teeth/I also have a new woodruff key, o ring, 250ml of SAE30 and a shouldered nut ready, but interestingly - no washer recommended for the BGM! Torque to 65Nm So carbon plates? Worth it? Do you have to use different oil? Ill be trying the Adige plates next. I think the problem might be the carbon plates. I didn't use the 80w just the usual 30w. With 10 of the XXXL springs it is not slipping but it's too heavy and will need to go back to XXL and find some plates that dont slip or mash up so badly. I go a set of these for the tourer www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip+_93081600 the metal looked like a heavier grade. |
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Post by vespasco on Aug 17, 2015 18:03:06 GMT
If the XXL dont quite work nice enough you could always get the perfect combination by mixing the springs, 5 of each?
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Post by henri on Aug 18, 2015 13:12:34 GMT
thats also whats done in smally-world with carbon plates ,mix n match with alternate heavy n light springs , H
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Post by pxguru on Aug 19, 2015 9:00:58 GMT
The idea of using the carbon plates was that they wouldn't wear out so quickly. This seems now to be cancelled out by the way the tangs have bent so much after only a few thousand miles of my gentle Sunday driving And that carbon plates need more spring pressure. Cheers. I think do that I'll get a new set of XXL springs (use 5 XXL and 5 XXXL) and the Newfren sport plates (thicker metal) and see how it goes. I am guessing it will do the trick! |
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Post by sbwnik on Aug 31, 2015 23:33:28 GMT
I remember a couple of comments about the carbon ones, when they were first launched, getting very hot. The thinking was that being carbon they'd not disperse heat as quickly, but this was made up for in that they bite and last better. Could there be enough heat to soften the steel slightly? I can't see it, but I'd not expect the steel to be bending that quickly, unless the harder steel of the basket wasn't 'springing' slightly as they engaged?
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Post by pxguru on Sept 2, 2015 14:32:33 GMT
The carbon ones were fine at first but look like they are no good for this scooter. the heat might have something to do with the bending. Ordered some cork ones for next time. Which might not be such a long time as the heavy clutch is annoying be already  |
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Worth it?
