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Post by sime66 on Jan 12, 2015 14:36:01 GMT
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Post by rab on Jan 12, 2015 15:43:05 GMT
As far as I know the only difference was the stator and a few wires takeing it from e to efl there may be more to it so I'll be watching this thread  |
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Post by henri on Jan 12, 2015 16:57:06 GMT
the diff as far as i know is 1 circlip or 2 on the output shaft holding the loose gears on an shimmed , you can mix px-e n efl gears n shafts a bit but its not recommended to mix 2nd hand gears as there wear patterns accelerate the wear, earlier px125/150's have slightly diff ratios an you cant mix them with e n efl gears as they wont mesh right, i'm not sure exactly when the change to the later flat cruccy n 2 circlips occurs,but its reputed to be a better box with better selection an less jumping out of gear.
the kickstart quadrant n idle gears are the same an interchangable ,its much earlier when they changed ,
ive picked up second hand gear sets for bout 40-60 in the past , mostly by haunting e bay for job lots with loads of junk ya got to try n sell on , i think ive a shaft n loose gears an primary cluster for a px-e (single circlip) ,it needs springs n a plate on the primary as theres a crack on the one there , not sure tho as that might be the primarys with a early p box ive plans for, will check in morn if ya like ,
if ya shop around you can get whole new boxes for bout 120-140 ,shafts,gears an a clutch,
or if ya hit the lottery sip/drt do gear kits with diff ratios you can mix n match , H
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Post by vespasco on Jan 12, 2015 17:24:50 GMT
1) yes its ok. As they are both the same. At least I'm not aware of any unusual variations in the efl gearboxes like there were in the old type gearboxes.
2) referring to the 200s here, ill have to double check but the only difference i found on the primary was a chamfered edge on the main gear, which i think was to allow it to mesh easier?! At the mo' i cant remember which has which tho'.
3) kick quadrant will be the same. Im sure the kick cog will be the same too. The only differences in the kick cogs are the number of teeth (especially on the inner gear teeth). If the number of teeth are the same for both old and new gearboxes then they will be interchangable.
4) look at LML ?! Ive been using an indian gearbox (marked 'TDH') in my pinasco. (That may have even been secondhand too)! Stil seems ok after 1000's miles. No signs of wear.
I may have mentioned before but from what ive seen it will be cheaper to buy a complete drive shaft with gears (and if it comes with the matching primary for a good price then thats a bonus)!, rather than trying source gears individually. Any drive shaft from late px/cosa/lml will fit. So, depending on your final choice of gearing, id look for one that requires the least amount of part swapping.
5) i havent got one spare. Im also inclined to believe it would be ok. What was the reason for not being able to do this?
The gearbox was revived for EFL, and uses different gear cogs (except 2nd, which fits in both old and new gearboxes). Late type also uses a different driveshaft with a circlip and shim each end of the cogs.
Theres also differences in the rear wheel hub and seal but they are interchangable with the correct seal.
#Edit.. sorry h, i didnt see your reply when i typed this out and got round to posting it!
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Post by sime66 on Jan 12, 2015 18:40:56 GMT
That’s getting close to being the info I’m after, chaps. Basically I’m hoping to change a whole EFL driveshaft/gears/crux/rod into an early PX casings and re-use all the other gears – if I don’t get my hands on a whole EFL gearbox. I know the difference between the two driveshafts (circlips-shoulder), crux (flat-old+wobbly) and rod (length? and washer), and why the EFL one is better, what I can’t see is that there’s any difference in the primary/gears between ‘Old-P’ and EFL, so I reckon I can change to an EFL gearbox – just by changing the driveshaft/gears (with crux and rod too), but using the ‘Old-P’ primary/gears. I think that is OK, and I think you’ve confirmed it, but I think I’ve been told otherwise on here before, which is why I’m checking. You’ve also confirmed what I suspected, that it isn’t wise to swap gears about that have worn differently. I have a complete ‘Old-P’ gearbox. I’d like to change it because it saves swapping the selector box over with the engine (otherwise I’d need an ‘Old-P’ selector box). And the main reason is the crux-notches in the driveshaft, which improves gear changing and prevents slipping. My options are: 1) Looking for a complete used EFL gearbox, which is ideal, and I probably have time to do. 2) Swapping the Old-P driveshaft/gears for a used EFL one, and reusing the Old-P primary/gears and kickstart, if that is doable, which is the reason for my question. 3) Using the ‘Old-P’ complete, which is least desirable. I’m well on with keeping an eye out for everything that goes through Ebay that might be useful to me for my 2015 budget spare engine; this is just one piece of the jigsaw. - You’ve added a couple of alternatives there too, vespasco, which I’ll look into. I’ve seen the Indian gearsets and the prices too (I think the LML ones don’t have the EFL notches?) If you do have an EFL shaft and loose gears, that I can use with my ‘Old-P’ primary, H, then you probably have a buyer if you don’t have other plans for it; as long as it is EFL and the match with my ‘Old-P’ primary/gears is doable and sensible – I really want this engine to end up EFL – especially if this turns out to be simpler than I thought, which seems to be true. As far as the gear ratios are concerned (this I am going to check – I’m still better in the quiet mornings for numbers): · An ‘Old-P’ and EFL 150 primary/gears are both 68-12,13,17,21 (? I think exactly the same part anyway – see above ?) · An ‘Old-P’ (Early PX) 150 driveshaft/gears are 58, 42, 38, 36 (I’m going to count them next job to check) · An early EFL 150 driveshaft/gears are also 58, 42, 38, 36 (my 1983 PX150EFL DR177 engine) · A late EFL 150 driveshaft/gears are 57, 42, 38, 35 (don’t know the years, but mine is early EFL, so not this). From that, subject to checking, the primary/gears are the same, and an ‘Old-P’ (early PX) driveshaft/gears are the same (ratios, not parts) as an early EFL, and all mesh with the same primary/gears anyway. Here’s the Beedspeed chart, but I’m going to count cogs to be sure:  I’m serious about the EFL driveshaft/gears if you are, H; it isn’t about not having the money/winning the lottery to buy a new box, it’s about keeping the spending in proportion to the purpose of the build – a budget, spare. Possibly I got the wrong impression before when asking, and it was individual gears that can’t be mixed on shafts, and I misunderstood the answer I got. – I’m hoping to change a whole EFL driveshaft/gears/crux/rod into an early PX casings and re-use all other gears. The business with the hub is something I have yet to get my head round. I’ve noted what you say, vespasco; up until now I’ve been thinking that whether or not I can use my current hub depends on which gearbox I end up with (or the casings – wasn’t sure which). I have the same size of external seal on the casings as my PX150EFL DR177 engine, but I’ve just got backplate and brake linkage/cam so far with that bit. I hope I've covered everything you've written; I'll have a more thorough read in the morning, but thanks for replies, especially as it seems to be good news for me! I’ll do some photos and stuff once I’ve got my head round it all a bit better and got more to show…….. The engine in my scooter is 1983 (it's an EFL), and this one is 1982 (it's not an EFL). the main difference I've seen so far in the casings is the circlip/bearing arrangement around the main bearing, which I think is going to need a repair/reinforcing ring anyway, but I'll get to that; I know the job and parts involved. |
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Post by henri on Jan 13, 2015 9:36:40 GMT
the difference in old p primarys an e/efl 1's is the size of the shaft they run on , by switching the bushes in cases either kind can be run in your cases,
either size of hub will fit on your shaft splines the cases just need the appropriate size seal to match put in,
an just for info 1 reason the 2 circlip box is better is with a shim at either end an carefull shimming the loose gears can be lined up to fully mesh with the primarys spot on , =better power transmission/less wear or rubbing /less tendency to jump gears , H
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Post by sime66 on Jan 13, 2015 11:40:45 GMT
Cheers, H. I’ve been calling it ‘Old-P’, but I mean ‘Old-PX/E’, as in a pre-EFL PX150E (1982), from the engine number, but that’s the casings, not necessarily the gears; I think some measuring, teeth counting and photos might be due to be certain. --It’s Ø13x15mm for bush and Ø15mm for bearing (6302=same), which also ties up with SIP dims for input shaft and bush for both: www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/input+shaft+fa+for+vespa+p125_88210000www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/bush+input+shaft+for+vespa+_17451400The needle bearings match too: Ø2x11.8mm. The gears are 68x21,17,13,12 as expected. As far as I can see it is the same as an EFL one. The primary shaft itself had been at the back of my mind from a conversation we had here at the end of last year, I’ve seen the differences and it was something I was going to get to, and I was wondering if I might need to change the shaft to re-use this ‘Old-P’ primary, but it seems I won’t. That primary shaft is out of these casings, I’ll look into it more carefully if I use this primary, rather than using a complete EFL gearbox. If I use this one, I’ll replace the bearings and springs anyway. It seems to me now, from what you’ve said this morning, that the care and correction needs to be concentrated on the EFL driveshaft shimming to achieve the spot-on alignment; that is a job I can really make sure I get right, do a better job than last time, and possibly go back and look at again on the other one too when I have my other cases split later in the year. – Thanks for that; it did seem at bit imprecise at the time before, and I recall querying it, but it all went together OK, so I just had it shimmed as it was previously, after checking the wear/play with feelers, and it has been fine. The hub seems to be simpler than I’d thought too. My DR177 cases have a 30,47,6 external seal and this ‘Old-PX/E’ has a 27,47,6 external (both checked this morning) so I can just change that iØ 27 for an iØ 30 seal and use the same hub? – That’s good news too. I’ll look at the driveshaft/gears later; they’re all dismantled now for cleaning and checking, so it’ll be simple enough to measure-up and count it all. So far this is proving to be simpler to swap than I’d expected; thanks for replies. vespasco, I meant to edit yesterday - I’d already checked the kickstart/idle cog; it’s 12tx12t Ø20.5 for all: www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/kickstart+gear+1212+teeth+_11352600 |
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Post by henri on Jan 13, 2015 17:31:39 GMT
they are pretty imprecise on the shimming ,an to be honest for the state of tune your aiming at dont need to be any more exact really , its only when getting to pxguru's 30bhp or gazes dream 50bhp that exact meshing becomes more critical.to save on frictional losses for that extra .2bhp an for reliability an non-destruct tendencys , more measuring/care assembling=more miles without grenading , H
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Post by vespasco on Jan 14, 2015 0:21:45 GMT
Its the shims that wear so do inspect them closely if youre using 'unknown/used' ones. (Generally you re-shim the one nearest the wheel). I maybe a bit premature here but ive found that once the gearbox is nicely shimmed and meshing nicely then its the selector box that usually needs more attention/tweaking, mainly due to all the different brands that make them. I filed down the grooves in the bat wing for perfect meshing and smooth selection after upgrading my gearbox. This should ideally all be done on the bench  I dont think youll have any problems with your gearbox |
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Post by sime66 on Jan 14, 2015 9:10:39 GMT
I’ll do the inspection/shimming with dims and photos on here as a bit of a learning exercise, which might help others too – there’s been quite a few on here that have had aggro with gears/selector box tweaking, who we’ve tried to help before them going back into the engine.
One of the big plus-points in using an EFL gearbox, for me, is that I can use the same selector box for both engines – which I couldn’t if I reused the ‘Old-PX’ gears. I’m not sure how much of a problem it is in real life for lightly tuned engines, but there is a definite difference between PX/E and PX/EFL selector boxes; a problem I’m hoping to avoid by having the same gears in both engines. My selector box box/shimming/meshing on my DR180 seems fine, but probably more by luck than judgement, so this is a good opportunity to learn to do it properly, even if, as you both say, it isn't critical to be too precise for this engine.
This should be a good, no stress, no time pressure, thorough job with lots of Q&A and reading, patience with buying parts, and care with what I have making up for not spending loads-money where it isn’t needed.
I’m very pleased that this bit seems to be simpler than I expected, but even these few questions, and going away and measuring what I have, and doing some reading has taught me a fair bit about the ‘P’ gearboxes. What I did before was just removing, inspecting, cleaning and hoping I put it back how it was – this is a bit more in-depth.
This can probably return to the back-burners until I find my gears now, so the next big bit I’ve got to get my hands on is the top-end…………. (either a cheap 150, or a used 180 time/price/patience again).
A final note on the gears for now; both of mine are 68x21, 17, 13, 12 -- 35, 38, 42, 57 - which wasn't as I'd thought (68x21, 17, 13, 12 -- 36, 38, 42, 58). I haven't really thought through how I got it wrong before, (we did gear calcs after I'd put my engine back together, so I used the table above) but anyway, on paper, it gives me a few extra kph in 4th. Any changing of individual gears is something for me to get into down the line - I took note that you mentioned it early on in this thread, with the "final choice of gearing" slipped in, vespasco.
Another final note; I'm well away from buying Indian stuff before until/unless my patience and searching for good 2nd hand is fruitless for a few moths, but which Indian suppliers are trustworthy, and how much of a cost/embuggerance is the import on stuff from over that way?
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Post by henri on Jan 14, 2015 9:54:22 GMT
if ya stick with the long established firms , with years/thousands of trades an high feedback you should be fine , ive never had major problems ,most of em have enfield in the name ,or state its lml OE or genuine , an as a private buyer havent ever had to pay import dutys/tax ,an often stuff has arrived faster than estimated or from some english shops , the 1 time sum fork bearings where damaged in packing/transit ,(the first i reckon)got a no-quibble replacement sent within 2 days ,without having to return em,better than some english shops . H
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Post by vespasco on Jan 14, 2015 14:25:54 GMT
Ive not really looked too hard before but are the late type 150 drive shaft gears the same as 200?!!!? The numvers looj familiar enough!
I doubt youll have to but if you decide to order from India..ive had good experiences, with parts arriving sooner than my Sip order placed at the same time.. From Ludhiana, via ebay, where they make most original LML parts. No custon charges either!
Ive also spotted a bargain? maybe not quite what you want but none the less.....On Facebook...in Plymouth, LML 125? with ported cases for malossi 166, reed block, Sip road, comp crank, disc brakes plus more, recent rebuild... £600. Sounds like it needs just a little tlc!? Sounds like a bargain to me!?
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Post by sime66 on Jan 14, 2015 14:41:52 GMT
I know that chap, Southern Templars S.C., and it's local to me; I saw his ad on FB about an hour ago, and spent a good half-hour chewing it over before deciding to stick to my plans.
I don't want something with an unknown problem, and haven't got the room for a second scooter really, unless it's a runner and I'm deciding which to keep.
"I believe it needs new seals but that's just a guess" made my mind up that I just don't need the aggro or expense with that this year.
I'm happy with my scooter really, and the plan to slowly build this motor, and then go on to tweak my one.
It is a bargain, especially with no delivery costs just over the county border, but not for me.
The gears is something I'll look at more carefully in the next few days; my spare time this morning is running out now, but I'm curious about it all again now.
Thanks to both again for advice about buying Indian; I probably won't need to, but I would like to lose my cherry and find some decent suppliers because it seems that more and more stuff is coming from there (esp. LML) as good 2nd hand is becoming scarcer here, especially for older models. I might have a think and have a test-run with something not too important.
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Post by vespasco on Jan 14, 2015 14:45:43 GMT
My 'test run' was a crank and driveshaft inserting tool and im super pleased with quality, price and speed of shipping. And with the ease of inserting crank and drive shaft I wished I bought on e years ago (less than £20 inc p&p)!! |
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Post by sime66 on Jan 14, 2015 14:52:09 GMT
I remember now, that you mentioned that tool at the end of last year, I'll look into it, Ludhiana?
The other reason for finding decent Indian suppliers is that loads of stuff is coming from there anyway, but is disguised/repackaged on the way, or by dealers here just claiming ignorance about origins of their stock, so it might be just as well to find decent suppliers there, and cut out the middle-man to save a bit of money and know for sure where it is from - still got Ebay/Paypal protection.
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Post by vespasco on Jan 14, 2015 18:10:21 GMT
(The ebay seller i used was 'Enfield County' if youre interested)
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Post by sime66 on Jan 14, 2015 19:30:26 GMT
Ive not really looked too hard before but are the late type 150 drive shaft gears the same as 200?!!!? The numvers looj familiar enough! I just had a quick look at the gear tables for your's from before; it's the cush drive that's different - a 65 not a 68, the others are the same. (Not clutch, your's is 65x23, mine 68x21). I suppose that means that the driveshaft I'm looking for can be off a 200 too. That needs checking though.......... I also think that might be why they use the 36-tooth (T5) 4th back in, but that's one I haven't really got my head round yet. There's a discrepancy somewhere between Beedspeed's table, and what I've found in the two gearboxes I have. I expected a 36T 4th (according to BS table for PX/E & early PX/EFL), but I've got 35T. I haven't got a late PX/EFL to check, though I'm sure it's quite easy to find. (I wonder if BS mean 'late' for EFL, rather than 'Late EFL'?) I remember going through the tables in Haynes, and I'll dig them out soon to see what they say. I'll have a better look at it when it's quiet. (Thanks for other info; I found the EnfieldCounty listing on Ebay: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281294978170?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) |
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Post by vespasco on Jan 15, 2015 2:52:27 GMT
I think BS are correct. I think they mean by 'Late PX150' = built upto 1986, including the ('Late PX150') EFL model built from 1983/4 to 1986 (and onwards).
From 1986 they ALL had the late type gearbox. 1983/4 - 1986 was the crossover point for a couple of changes.
Id be very suprised if the 200 late EFL driveshaft n gears would not fit your late efl 150. (Not talking about primary or clutch here).
Again, i would recommend a complete driveshaft with matching gears, as opposed to buying separate gears fom different models and gearboxes of different ages. Even if they are all late EFL!
I notice too on the BS chart, the primary drive on both EFL models are different!? Old efl is '68', the new efl is 'a68'!?
Im not sure why you have a 35T in your old type gearbox, i can only imagine someone swapped it over??
My indian drive shaft has the notches for the crux, as do the pictures of the lml on sip website)!?
Now my notebook is out!! And in my notes i have this (when i was looking for 200 gearboxes).....
PX150 late EFL compared to PX200 late EFL gears (1986 onwards)
1st gear - same
2nd gear - same, fits ALL PX old and new
3rd gear - same, fits ALL PX (late EFL, after 1986). Check - also T5?
4th gear - same, A 36 tooth from PX125 late EFL and T5 also fits/meshes ok.
And heres something i didnt know i had.....
Stock gearing combinations using the larger Cosa style Clutches @ 115mm/108mm diameter clutch.
Primary/Clutch.
P/X200 >1994 with 65 tooth primary fits with 21,22,23 tooth clutch gear.
Primary teeth/Clutch teeth:
65/23 - Stock 200
68/20 - Stock T5
68/21 - Stock Cosa 125/150, also 172cc T5
68/22 - 172cc T5
67/21 - short gear px200, also 172cc T5
65/21 - short px200
65/22 - short px200
ALL smaller 108mm/96mm diameter 6 spring clutch on PX80-150 upto 1994 and GTR125, TS, 150 Sprint V, 150 Super are all interchangable with no primary gear cog changes required.
68/20 - PX80 stock
67/20 - 125cc-177cc short
68/21 - stock PX100,125,150 1981-1994
67/21 - 125cc-177cc short gear
68/22 - 125-177cc short
67/22 - 125,150, early P, GTR,Super,TS,GL,Sprint V
Im sure this is all from SIP..i would have never worked all those out by myself!!
Loads of other combinations are available
I didnt get as far as working out the actual main/primary drive gears sorry!
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Post by sime66 on Jan 15, 2015 8:08:59 GMT
Good effort! This is definitely a subject that could do with a bit of study out of curiosity and for clarification; although I’ve got my answer for this job I will spend more time on it to get it clear in my mind and recorded for future – I’ll come back to that in the next day or so. A couple of quick ones arising out of your last post first though: 1) The intention to look for an EFL driveshaft and reuse this primary/gears that I got with this engine only arose from earlier in this thread (I had started under the impression I couldn’t) – we do still agree that my old primary/gears is OK to use with another old complete EFL driveshaft/gears if I can find one? I didn’t intend buying a driveshaft and loose gears separately; I’ll give it a few months looking for a complete used Piaggio EFL driveshaft/gears (as long as I understood you correctly before), or I will buy a gearbox complete – very possibly an LML combo from India, which leads me on to the next point: 2) I picked up the point about LML not having the notches from the SIP site; I don’t know if it’s accurate, and I’ve never had an LML gearbox in my hands; it’s encouraging that your one has them. I do see some photos of ‘EFL’ without notches, so I imagine it’s just a case of being careful when buying. The subject of the notches only came to my attention recently when I started looking at this again, it was only then that I learned that they’re an EFL improvement and intended to make gear changing more precise and slipping less likely – again info from SIP site. Up until then, when I saw them on mine, I thought it was wear on the shaft. 3) I can’t explain, and I think don’t need to anyway, why this older gearbox is 35, 38, 42, 57 (I’m almost certain I won’t use it in this build); I think that’s the gears I’m looking for now though, but EFL. This whole business of which gears changed when, what a68 is (I’d seen it before too but not checked it out), which gears mesh etc., is something I need to quietly study – if I keep plucking snippets of info and filling in the blanks I’m going to get myself more confused. For the time being we’ve both found that all late PX150EFL and PX200EFL driveshafts are the same (unless someone says otherwise), which is the bit that matters to me now. The rest of it is something I will definitely spend some time on and report back, and cross-check with your findings – thrashing out the finer detail is what this build is for. – There might be some parts/engine-naming confusion between what SIP call ‘Old/Lusso-PX’ and what BS call ‘Early/Late EFL’. I think SIP mean ‘Old’ as ‘PX/E’, and ‘Lusso’ as EFL. I think BS mean ‘early’ as ‘PX/E’ and ‘Late’ as ‘PX/EFL’. I don’t think there are two EFLs; and early EFL and late EFL are there? Or just for 150? Is what we’re saying that the 150 EFLs change is the ‘early’ and ‘late’ EFL referred to? A bit of a quiet study will sort it out. Lusso(D)=Arcobaleno(I)=1st EFLs. (mines Arcobaleno(I) – 1983-EFL ('Early150EFL' or 'EarlyEFL' 'LatePX/E'  ) 4) Primary clutch combinations seem to be covered above: 65x21, 22 & 23; 67x20, 21 & 22; 68x20, 21 & 22. Your info is more thorough, and I haven’t looked into it that thoroughly before, so that’s all I can say on that for now. Reckon that’s my lot for now, until I have something more definite to add; interesting though, and worthwhile to get it right and recorded once and for all. |
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Post by sime66 on Jan 15, 2015 10:51:41 GMT
Just to finish this bit off for now, before I go on to taking a closer look at all the P gear ratios and changes, and using the 35, 38, 42, 57, for this (late150 & 200), and if it is OK to use a whole used primary/gears with a whole new driveshaft/gears?, these are the sort of options I seem to have – only IF I don’t find an old Piaggio EFL gearbox or driveshaft/gears: LML driveshaft from SIP: LML driveshaft from India via Ebay (would need checking out first): LML complete gearbox from India via Ebay (would need checking out first, but looks OK): Same one, with close-up of parts: A bit of care and a few awkward questions beforehand to make sure I’m getting what I expect, (the photos ain’t necessarily what’s in the box) and I would be inclined to take a chance, but not for a few months of looking around first; I’d rather have old Piaggio/Vespa really. I see MG Exports have 100%, but not many sales; I can't quickly find exactly what I'm after on Enfield, who have a lower %ge and more sales, but anyway there isn't too much point spending too much time on this so far in advance of needing to select anything; 'just browsing'. Now, to see what we can see about these gears……………. |
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Post by vespasco on Jan 15, 2015 12:37:20 GMT
Muxing individual main drive shaft gears from different models of diffeent age is rhe thing to avoid. As henri says, if you were building a 30bhp motor then every last detail is crucial. But for you, (for me too)! mixing good used/new primary with good used/new main drive gears will be ok.
You wont be putting any worn parts in your motor anyway so no problems.
I could not comment or guarantee on the non existant LML notches on the main shaft. Ive not seen any without notches before. Try asking on an LML forum!? Or Stella (usa version)!?
Any Late PX 80,(check the px80 is the same, as it has some odd parts) 100, 125,T5, 150,200 EFL (1986 onwards) (and cosa) DRIvESHAFTS will fit.
The individual gears would need looking into more thoroughly tho'...
But we know that late, stock EFL 150 and late stock EFL 200 gear cogs are also the same.
I could be wrong but i do think there are 2 types of EFL... Early and late..... They are both called the same, EFL. The late EFL (after 1983/4) had fuel gauge on speedo, ignition and steering lock combi, new seat, new rear light, new horncast and headset top.
In 1986 the EFL (same model)! with old style gearbox was then upgraded to the late type gearbox.
A search for the engine numbers will not allows tell you exactly what gearbox you will have, especially if it was around the crossover point of the 2 gearboxes.
Thats for 125,150 and 200!
I dont think i would consider buying the whole gearbox kit... Not if you really only need the drive shaft n gears (crux and rod)! Youd have parts laying around youll never use.
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Post by sime66 on Jan 15, 2015 16:00:35 GMT
Cheers, got this gear business, at least for my 2015 engine, right in my head now; plenty of time to find what I’m after, patience is the key - and a back-up plan from our overseas scootering cousins if needed. I note what you say about the whole kit being unnecessary; there is loads there I’ve already got or wouldn’t want to use, but it’s only another £25. Anyway, too early to worry about final selection; I’m confident a nice old Piaggio EFL one will come my way before then.
More conversation, than important:
By ‘two EFLs’, I meant engines/gearboxes, not frames. Which bodywork refinements came in when isn’t clear cut by date, frame number and certainly not engine number. And some things people say are EFL, others say are optional extras – that is a whole new subject, and I bet you wouldn’t get full agreement either; you’ll probably get plenty who think they’re right of course.
As an example, mines got EFL speedo, ignition/steering lock, side panel fixings, rear light, horncast, and all those bits, but not autolube, battery, or electric start (which I think are extras, not EFL); it’s an early, 1983, budget, Italian market EFL. Then there’s country variations (mines Italian, imported to UK ‘05ish). I think EFL came in earlier for Italian market, so mine has an EFL gearbox, but it has an external seal on the rear hub, which I think is older casings, so a bit of a cross-over/foreign/and budget model in its market too. In fact it’s a 1983 engine and a 1984 frame according to scooterhelp, but nothing is black and white clear-cut; best to get in and have a look.
Our new Vietnamese friend may have an Arcobaleno, but we have yet to establish what it had when it came out of the factory. I have read that electric start engine casings were used, but rolled out without the electric start or not connected, which could then be fitted/connected later. Hopefully we’ll get to the bottom of that and sort him out, it looks like that’s what he’s got.
I understand that you say the EFL body came in before (’83-84) the EFL engine (‘86) for all models when ALL were EFL, and it was a bit of a lottery between those dates, which engine you might have with an EFL frame, but the actual physical size and shape of that EFL driveshaft remained the same, I think, with the possible exception of the individual cogs on 1st and 4th for a 150. Strip the gears and an EFL driveshaft is an EFL driveshaft – I think.
I think of ‘Arcobaleno’ (mine) as Early EFL, but ‘Lusso’, which SIP use (D), is ‘luxury’, so might not mean exactly the same thing either; more like ‘EFL with all the extras’. It’s ‘Lusso’ I look for on SIP for EFL engine stuff though.
I’m still going to go into the gears (teeth/ratios etc) more thoroughly, don’t want to ignore what you have said, but don’t have anything concrete to add until I’ve done a bit more research.
Good idea; it might be a good time to get involved on the LML forum too.
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Post by henri on Jan 15, 2015 20:19:44 GMT
first off , nothins firm in vespa world , 80's scoots are 30 years old an could of had "changes" on route , an piaggio is the worlds longest scoot builder coz they always save a mickle were a muckle will do, theres no firm cut off for model/spec changes ,models/specs run into each other ,in brit speak there called "parts bin specials" , sorry if this confuses but first rule is coz its a "83" doesnt mean it conforms to 83 specs , ok,
back to indian stuff , would be shy of vintage india source, dont know them, have come across mg exports but havent used em for anything for much , have used mickey spares for little bits ,but for big i'd stick with big dealers =enfield county, or other long established ones ,
an ya right the shaft dont change but the cogs on it might be diff , confusing i know, hope ya can nail it down as ive never got my head round it , piaggio gods like all gods , unknowable an indifferent to mere mortals, enjoy,H
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Post by sime66 on Jan 15, 2015 20:30:27 GMT
..Just tidying up a post as it goes, but firstly absolutely agree that models, frame numbers and engine numbers don’t give the answer; getting in there and having a look is the only way to be sure. I'm sure this one has had a tweak because of the 35 and 57, and it doesn't look like a matching set either - might do some photos of it all in the morning. (Re: Indian; thanks for the input - I really am hoping/expecting to find a nice old bit of manky Piaggio somewhere before needing to, but it's all taken on board.) To the business of gears: I’ve got it right in my head now, I think. There’s five standard ‘P’ gearbox set-ups (yellow highlight), two of them EFL, which is only the late PX150EFLs, like we said above. I don’t know what the A68 is, and I’m not certain when the ‘Late’ EFL was, 1986?, or if there’s any other differences in the engine, but below is a simpler table (hope you can read it; it's an Excel file), showing all the Primary variations that Beedspeed show – there are other variations for individual driveshaft gears too, which I haven’t thought about yet….  As always, I’ll check my numbers in the morning, when it’s quiet, but thought you might be online before then, so posted it now. I think it also means that for 35, 38, 42, 57 I need a late-150/200, not a 125 because this seems to say a 125 is 36, 38, 42, 58. That’s me for tonight; I’ll check myself in the morning. --- Checking against Haynes:  |
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Post by sime66 on Jan 16, 2015 7:33:25 GMT
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Post by henri on Jan 16, 2015 11:47:59 GMT
somebodys been at them cases eh, the circlip should be ok as theres enuff to hold it ,but i'd use permanent bearing locker when installing to be a bit more sure, the extra hole/drilling in inlet is ok as it doesnt comprimise the sealing pad but you'll need to match the carb box to it for it to be any use. i can only see 1 number on the spigot faces so am guessing the fly-side case is a replacement 1 ,
looks to me like youve got just about a whole engine there to play with, enjoy , H
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Post by sime66 on Jan 16, 2015 13:14:50 GMT
They're in good nick for 33 years old ain't they. It is an original matching pair; my flash bleached it, but it's clear in real life. I read that the repair might not be needed for a low power engine. I'm glad you think it's OK because otherwise it makes the casings purchase £20 less of a good deal for me. I bought just the casings and gearbox in December, and have been scratching around for the rest since. I checked that inlet against my other engine (I'll do photos later – I'm on laptop, not PC at moment); it's similar to the other casings, but the transition from carb-carb box-crank inlet is something I want to tidy on both engines. The main bits left to find are the half-gearbox and top-end; I'd like a clutch too, to save faffing about, but it isn't necessary really and might be a bad idea to have sitting around anyway. Then other than that it's seals and bearings, nuts, bolts and gaskets. Plenty of time, and look at all the jobs in depth; learn some stuff and do it right. All the bits I need are itemised and priced on a spreadsheet for SIP and Beedspeed, so it's just a case of seeing what I can find before I run out of patience, and want to build it, and what I can use on both engines with too much faffing about. - Then when it's ready, buy the new bits I need, swap it over, and then do some jobs and tuning on the other engine, which won't be until after MOT in September anyway. OK, a few more pics: Matching cases:  Inlet (this engine):   Inlet (1983 engine):  Parts schedules and pricing:   |
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Post by pxguru on Jan 16, 2015 17:51:58 GMT
All looks good. As H says about the broken circlip seat. Will be fine.
The big question is are you going to Dremel those casings or leave them totally standard? Which would really depend on what kind of engine will this be? Which will also detemine the gear cogs and primary clutch cog use.
If its going to be a standard 150 barrel then it should be tuned for 8000 rpm. Which will make it fast, relisble and go up hill. Once you make this decision then all the other decisions will fall into place much easier.
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Post by vespasco on Jan 16, 2015 18:14:17 GMT
I need to catch up on all these different shaped inlet holes from carb box to cases ive been seeing lately. And what would be best for a stock 24mm si carb. Your cases look pretty clean. Clutch side bearing retainer is the only thing i can see that needs much attention. Looks like youve got it it all covered There wont be any particular date when late/early efl crossed over. As mentioned, it gets particularly messy between 83-86. Then theres different models for different countries....the only way is to look at what you have. |
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Post by sime66 on Jan 16, 2015 19:47:26 GMT
Ah ha! Decisions! I am still flexible until I land the next couple of big bits, and still open to suggestions before then, and I can see where we might be going with that question, and it appeals to some extent. You said before that a properly set up 150 would probably be better than my bolted on 180. It wasn’t my intention to Dremel these casings this time; I am just building a budget spare to get in my scooter, so I can do some jobs and tweaks on the other engine. That was the conclusion, after taking advice on here at the end of last year, but there’s plenty of spare time and enthusiasm to refine the plan, especially as finding the barrel and gears are where I’m at now. At present it’s to use the (21&)/68x21,17,13,12 I have, find an EFL 35, 38, 42, 57 and any old cheap-but-sound 150/180 barrel I can find, without work on casings. – That is going to be cheap. As it happens, doing it cheap was beginning to appeal even more, as just this afternoon I was thinking if this does prove to be as cheap as it’s looking now, I might even squeeze my Full Bike Test in before my Theory Test Pass Certificate (valid for 2 yrs) runs out in June. If the argument is that it doesn’t cost to do the Dremel work; just learning some new skills, and spending some time on it, then the question has to be what additional bits am I going to have to buy to change from the planned budget to a well-tuned 150? And what more will it cost? · (New?) 150 piston, barrel, head? I’ve seen no used 150s floating around yet. · (New?) Gears, rather than using this primary? · Crank? Rather than my rescue from last rebuild. · Carb? Rather than making do with this Dell’Orto 20, or using the 24 in both, which I intend not to do. · I think I’m going to end up using the same clutch in both; undecided what’s best there. · I’m still not happy with messing with my exhaust, and am pretty firm about that. It’s mainly a spare (against the advice that I don’t really need it). It’s also an opportunity to do some jobs more carefully, and some others I avoided before (cush drive, doing bearings myself etc.) It could also be an opportunity to be a bit more ambitious and do some Dremelling; but I’d need to know what’s involved, and have a think about it when I’ve got the full story. Three other doubts: 1. Is it really going to be as reliable tuned for 8,000? The one real thing I’d like to improve/more than anything is reliability, and I wonder if increasing my revs is what I want to do. 2. Is it worth doing all the Dremelling work for a 150? DR180 kits are very cheap too now (just using it as an example, not cos it’s DR). 180:www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261496376807?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT150:www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321214912326?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT3. Is my exhaust up to it? Vespasco, I reckon I’ve got the ‘standard’ ‘P’ gears right in my mind now – always subject to the proviso that you don’t assume you’ve got what you should have by model/engine number/year etc. without checking it for variations/tweaks. (Did you notice that my 35T 4th looks different in this set? Was 36?). I have a feeling that I might be on the verge of some Good-Learning from our resident experts on more detailed gear-cog/primary/clutch teeth selection too; so stay tuned, it might get interesting. For both my PX150s, which originally had 20/20 carbs, the inlet shape has been similar, as in the photos above. I knew it didn’t suit a 24/24, or the carb box; I intend to do some careful measuring/drawing?/cutting to get those transitions cleaner, on this engine before it goes together, and then using the learning to do the same job on the other engine; again, stay tuned… |
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