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Post by vespasco on Oct 11, 2014 15:38:27 GMT
 They were in a bag, sent by SIP along with my recent order of bits of bobs. |
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Post by henri on Oct 11, 2014 15:49:21 GMT
panel pin sleeves at a guess , better than the empty boiled sweet wrapper that was in my last sip order ,sips rep for reliability n order correctness has taken a dive recent along with there customer service aswell. this extra is prob there way of re-cycling n being green an keeping there rubbish removal costs down by just posting it to england ,
it was only 2 world wars n 1 world cup but them germans can hold a grudge like the best of em ,maybe this is a cunning plan/way of getting even , by puzzling/mystifing " english pig dog scooterists" ,my words stolen from a "war" comic i read as a kid,i'm sure the guys at sip are all really nice (they might forum read/cruise in there tea break),
you could e mail em n ask , just dont expect a answer this side of chrimbo, H
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Post by vespasco on Oct 11, 2014 19:32:27 GMT
What ever they are they will end up as panel pin covers, I think they will slip on neatly, just heat them up and shrink fit them.
In fact, they look perfect for it..with the extra, larger diameter piece it would fit neatly into the hole in the chassis!! I think you're right h ☺
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Post by sbwnik on Oct 11, 2014 21:08:08 GMT
They look like a snapped security lock off an export trailer/container to me. Any numbers on them?
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Post by vespasco on Oct 12, 2014 14:23:15 GMT
This is what one of them is now.....! Fits perfect with a bit of silicone. Im going to do a leak/compression test on my top end.... They will end up as panel pin covers. No security numbers. Ive salvaged a rubber door stop to act as a bung for the inlet..... And probably an old tennis ball for the exhaust bung unless someone has a better idea!?  |
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Post by vespasco on Oct 12, 2014 15:11:07 GMT
Is there a reason for disconnecting the exhaust at the stub when doing a leak test? Or is it likely to leak at that joint?
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Post by vespasco on Oct 12, 2014 15:31:47 GMT
Yes...do the whole system too...fsag...I even thought of blocking the jets and venturi off etc.... is that a bad thing?
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Post by henri on Oct 12, 2014 18:30:02 GMT
i'd of thought exhaust off to be sure ya testing the top end only ,an the exhaust joint is mostly sealed by the carbon build up from use so wud prob leak under sustained pressure ,a exhaust runs at between 2-5psi backpressure cyclically depending on maker/design , an for a exhaust bung maybe a home brewing demi-john type rubber plug if ya can find 1 big enuff , otherwise a bit of inner tube n jubilee clip should seal the stub ,
are ya going to oil the rings ,or do it without an then with , will give a indication of ring wear/life , H
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Post by vespasco on Oct 13, 2014 18:21:10 GMT
I would do it with exhaust off too. I was more curious to see how much the exhaust leaks and what effects it has...but progress is slow so will probably not get time. I was also thinking of doing a gearbox leak test. Depends on what kind of bungs I can find laying around. I may just try the jubilee clip and old tube! Along with whatever I can find to bunga bunga the hole too!  ? I was going to do it @ BDC . to test the seals. New rings were fitted, with minimum tolerace ring gap. But I still want to give the cylinder lining a quick hone.... I've got a list of stuff to do... |
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Post by vespasco on Oct 18, 2014 15:55:59 GMT
First update:
Ive done a crank /rotary pad leak test...
I filled the inlet with 2 stroke oil, only enough to cover the crank web, not completey full,, it took 5 minutes to drain away...is that ok?? What are your guys opinions?
Compression test next...
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Post by henri on Oct 18, 2014 16:02:17 GMT
well alright , 5 mins is 3 more than a minimum ,H
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Post by vespasco on Oct 18, 2014 17:10:42 GMT
/Rotary pad  Compression/ Seal test... Dont laugh... Sealing the exhaust was tricky..ill use grease too next time.. I could hear air coming from the clutch breather  
Next will be a gearbox compression test as i had a crack welded up recently.... But its too dark now... Mañana! |
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Post by sime66 on Oct 18, 2014 17:41:34 GMT
I’ve been following this because the merits of pressure testing have been discussed a few times, and I’ve been unable to comment due to my own ignorance, but curiosity has got the better of me now:
When you said about doing a gearbox test I wondered about the clutch breather – that side isn’t pressurised is it? (Because of the breather?)
I’m following the crank pad seal test; it’s like you got me to do to test my crankside oil seal, and I love the bung bodging for compression test, and vaguely follow different tests to check rings too, but you’ve lost me with compression testing the gearbox, or why the crank case/cylinder compression test would make the clutch breather hiss, unless the main seal was bad.
If I’m wildly missing something I’ll just shut up and read as you go, but you’ve got me curious now.
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Post by henri on Oct 18, 2014 17:55:04 GMT
exactly sime, ifcrankcase test=breather hiss its a clutch side seal failure , if it dont hiss its other side or a gasket failure/head to barrel leak,
the merits are too narrow the list of usual suspects down ,but you'll do all seals n gaskets if cases are split anyway ,but its nice to know where to concentrate an wether casings arent cracked n if head/barrel needs lapping/machining , H
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Post by vespasco on Oct 18, 2014 18:04:20 GMT
Im learning too sime. Im a compression test virgin but now i have the tools (and a bouncy ball to play with should it all go tits up) i will no doubt carry on perfecting the technique.
To me, if i was hearing air from the clutch breather then the clutch side seal is gone..? Im not entirely sure if i also (over)filled up/pressurized the gearbox at the same time ...to give enough pressure for it to come out of the breather?
The needle on my small foot pump pressure gauge started ar 15psi so i disregarded that. - so it was a matter of taking it slow rather than checking the dial for 5 or 6 psi. Its possible i over done it with Too much pressure.
So is it likely my clutch seal is gone?
Edit
Ah! I missed your post h..it still takes me ages but now im using a tablet and not my phone ☺ so can finally see everything!!!
Ill check the oil too to help to confirm
I need /would like to test the gearbox too as it is suspect. Even with a leaking clutch seal , so long as the top end is sealed (so far im happy it is), and blocking the breather hole,, feed air into oil fill hole...and it should hold pressure?!
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Post by pxguru on Oct 18, 2014 18:08:40 GMT
Hissing from the gearbox breather is not good. Might still appear to run fine but would be a few horses short  Will be interested to know what is leaking... |
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Post by vespasco on Oct 18, 2014 18:16:14 GMT
That would exlpain the few horses im loosing in 4th at WOT pxguru ji.. In all other gears its fine!!? *Another Edit!
What are your views on the rotary pad test guru ji!? |
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Post by sime66 on Oct 18, 2014 18:30:37 GMT
I think so; that’s how I saw it, and how Henri is explaining it too.
In my mind, if you’ve sealed crank inlet and exhaust stub, and are pumping through spark plug, you should have a sealed chamber. If your bungs are good and the chamber still isn’t sealed, it’s either the head, cylinder gasket, or one or other of the seals. So if you’re hissing at the clutch breather then that means that the leak is through the clutch-side main seal; that’s what Henri has just confirmed.
In my mind the gearbox isn’t sealed/pressurised because of the clutch breather, so to do a pressure test on it (if that is a done thing) then you must need to seal the clutch breather to do it. Again, trying to picture it, the leak could then be the main cases gasket, hub seal(s), selector box, kickstart, clutch cover, or back through clutch-side oil seal – or maybe your repair? That’s not from any knowledge or experience; just trying to picture what that chamber’s openings (leaks) might be.
We need one of them clever blokes – ahh, pxguru has just chipped in whilst I was writing; I was coming back to our earlier question about your loss of power – might be narrowing it down then…….
(You've edited your post too now, so mine's out of date before I post it - I'm going to just listen and learn now).
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Post by vespasco on Oct 18, 2014 19:39:52 GMT
Normally there,d be no need for such extravagance as you would see signs of leaks in the gearbox pretty easily by the oil leaking from somewhere or other, rarely between the cases though!
Im only doing the gearbox test as i had it welded up recently, and want to check for any cracks that i may have missed. Id rather be 99% confident that the cases are ok to reuse rather than find out after a rebuild.
I have nt even checked the gearbox oil as yet (i will obviously)! but would expect ( and in a funny kind of way...'hope') to see some petrol in there.
This would also explain the reason i had to totally re jet my carb!!
At least with the SIP road the exhaust came(fell) off the stub pretty easy!
Keep chiming in... Its all useful.
By the time i post this there will no doubt be 2 more replies i didn't see!
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Post by sime66 on Oct 19, 2014 7:47:57 GMT
You have given us a slow-burner that’s turning into a lively and informative thread, here; hence the overlapping posts.
So the thinking is petrolly oil will confirm the now suspected clutch-side seal leak, indicated in the pressure test, and possibly explain your power-loss symptoms – top plan. Strangely then, fingers crossed for that.
I understand your reason to do the gearbox test now; you’ll have to keep the crank/cylinder side of it sealed for the test if you have a clutch-side seal leak, or you won’t be testing your repair – I think?
I don’t recall removing the clutch breather cap – might have just checked it wasn’t blocked when I did my engine; it’s just a threaded tube with a cap isn’t it? – Nothing more complicated?
I also just removed, repianted and refitted my SR2 to do my rust, and it slipped off, and back on again, very nicely – with a good dollop of copper grease on the bolt too, to prevent a repeat of earlier misdemeanors. I was expecting a nightmare getting the bolt back in, but with a tapered point on the bolt, it found its way back in easily. I use one of the springs that comes with it, onto the flywheel cover, but not the one onto the cylinder.
(What tablet did you get? M’lady is after one, and I’ve told her not to spend her money until I’ve had a look into it).
May your oil prove to be petrolly today, so you can progress your troubleshooting………
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Post by henri on Oct 19, 2014 10:17:01 GMT
had a thought this mornin in bed as i fought the "management " off ,an just read ya above posts , a pressure test is better described as a "leak down" test ,an if ya gauge only starts at 15psi if ya clutch seal wasnt gone before ,sorry but it is now . you only need 2-4 psi in cases an to time how long it holds it ,lip oil seals work not by pressure/rubbing on shaft as they'd wear out in no time, but the shape of lip an rotating shaft cause a doughnut shaped pressure wave ,1 of air on outside n 1 of fuel/oil/air on inside ,this is what gives you a "seal" , without shaft rotation (fnar-fnar)any sealing is like the sealing pad from closeness of lip to shaft (fna,nah i'll stop that now or be here all day) ,its kept in right shape to form the pressure vortices by the internal spring ,a leak down test will only show gross damage or deformation of seal or weakened spring .
the other use of the test is tracing case gasket leaks ,pressure in an fairy liquid on seam an bubbles = leak spot an where work on gasket face might be needed . to check ya crack/welding you need to have blanking plates an a long studded bar through where output shaft/selecter runs an also the tree bushes ,bolt in breather hole an drain an connecter for pump on oil level hole ,pressure in an fairy liquid over outside of weld , an also best to heat with a heat gun as cracks will open up if present when engine is warm , there is uv reactive crack test fluid you can get ,its really thin an use capilarry action to pull itself thru cracks an shows under a uv light bright purple on outside ,
if ya have any doubts about weld porosity i'd suggest clean it back with a st/steel wire brush an acetone/thinners/panel wipe, an then a coat of jb weld clear epoxy ,it will take the heat/vibration conditions an seal the cases . H
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Post by vespasco on Oct 19, 2014 15:29:23 GMT
Heres the 'mini foot pump' i used.... I gave it literally just 3 presses, just enough to move the needle.... Disregard the 15psi, i certainly didnt pump that much in. Its just the cheap needle reading like that when it should be at 0psi www.drcproducts.com/tool/d59-30/index.htmlSo are you saying that it wouldnt be possible to do the gearbox test with everything in situ? I mean with a fully built engine. I would imagine the seals were quite adequate.. I was going to leave the top end sealed, block the clutch breather, pump air into gearbox. Edit Im really getting used to this editing lark.... I checked my oil. Drained a little from the filler hole.....petrol!!!!! Another rebuild..... As for a tablet... all i can say is i wish i knew the 'hudl 2' was coming out earlier. For the money and spec you cant beat it... 2gb ram, Micro sd slot, nice 8.4" screen..... My mate has one.. Nice. |
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Post by sime66 on Oct 19, 2014 16:05:41 GMT
I think petrolly oil is a good thing in this instance; gives you something definite to fix.
H or pxguru will have to guide you through the gearbox test; I’m going to learn from someone else’s trials this time.
(Haven’t even lost my cherry yet on this subject, but learning from your learning).
Thanks for hudl2 vote; I walked past an advert for those in Tesco this morning – I’ll investigate the spec. Cheers.
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Post by pxguru on Oct 20, 2014 12:39:57 GMT
If there is hissing from the clutch breather when the crankcase is under pressure then there is a problem. I normally test to 10 psi for 10 minutes. If it can't hold this pressure then it will lose power at high rpm. Sorry but no choice except split it. If you have just fitted a new metal seal it might be leaking through the outer edge. Need to always bond them in and dot punch. Testing the gearbox by pressurizing it is risky in an engine you will not be splitting. The clutch side seal has a large surface area and pressure from the clutch side can blow it out of its seat. If you are going to do this then 1 psi max. Years ago I used to really worry about rotary Valve pad wear but as long as you can tip petrol in the inlet and it stays filled for a few seconds its plenty good enough. A new engine will hold petrol for minutes but this is just showing off  |
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Post by henri on Oct 20, 2014 16:19:44 GMT
wow ,you go as high as 10psi , is that for a new-build or lookin for a fault on a low-power lump, i can see it on a new-build where everythings tight n greased but have always tested in past at 2-4psi ,but that was on jap 2strokes not vesps , an for same reason as ya give on the clutch seal, too much pressure might not show a prob as much as cause one , H
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Post by vespasco on Oct 20, 2014 17:20:34 GMT
Thanks guys
The way i see it.... The clutch seal is blown anyway. Confirmed by leak down test and petrol in oil. (And lack of power at wot) Im gonna have to split cases and replace seal/s anyway. Before i split it Im gonna leave the inlet blanked off and the exhaust bung in when i do the gear box test, so hopefully this will still all be sealed even if the clutch seal gives in, which is likely as its being pressurized from the 'other' side!
Ill be looking closely for any signs of leaking on/around the clutch seal or to see if its been spinning around. Good call on the punch!
Cheers guys
I dont have a suitable pressure gauge at the mo' but its quite easy to 'feel' the resistance build up when pumping on my mini foot pump. I will likely test it again while its stripped down before i rebuild in these cases to be doubley sure.
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Post by vespasco on Oct 20, 2014 17:53:23 GMT
Simple.. (Or it would be if i could word it all clearly)! ....
Test before and after... Get a feel for it ... Its all good experience.... for future reference.
Im only really doing the gearbox test as it was cracked and is still suspect. Normally i wouldn't need to/bother.
Plus my engine is still blanked off from the crankcase test.
Im not stripping it down 'just' to test it. I need to change the clutch seal anyway.
Im happy the rotary pad/crank tolerance is ok... I know they should be 'fairly' tight but when i put it all together i noticed (what appeared to be) quite a shadow/gap and was a little concerned. Ill try it again with 2% fuel mix, makes sense to use that and not just 2 stroke oil!
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Post by henri on Oct 21, 2014 7:59:25 GMT
gettin a "base line" gives you a way of seeing if what ya doing is right/workin ,
an a sealing pad test can be done with any fluid ,petrol/2%mix/2stroke oil, just the timings ya lookin for are diff , more than 2-3 mins with oil, with fuel a new engine should hold up to near the same ,a older 1 if it aint just pouring straight through your ok ,
mostly i just inspect by eye ,as the 2-3 thou clearance doesnt actually "seal" so much as give a physical barrier that the mix cant rush back out ,some will always get past hence "spit back" ,just needs to be close enuff that the amount that can fit through in the split seconds the cases are in primary comp doesnt knock the power right down ,H
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Post by sime66 on Oct 21, 2014 8:11:19 GMT
Need to always bond them in and dot punch. I was wondering about this last night; I've seen dot punching done, but just thought someone had done a bad job of seating the seal. Think I saw one screwed in too, I'll see if I can find the pic. Don't mind looking silly to learn something new; what does it do? Stop it spinning? Any of you clever chaps, or I'll look it up later if not - curious now..... Found it:  |
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Post by vespasco on Oct 21, 2014 17:11:44 GMT
I hope to work on the engine this weekend. I will double check the rotary pad with fuel as visually it was not too good. These cases are old and were well mashed up when i bought them (a gamble on ebay). Now im wondering if they can withstand the Power of Pinasco anymore!!? Hence these tests im doing.
Centre punching the (metal) seal would be to stop it spinning yes. And popping out!
Talking of clutch seals.
Disregarding the cheaper black seals, the 2 other main types, being the (brown) metal and blue rubber (Corteco for eg) .... Am i right in thinking that the brown metal ones belong to the later efl models etc , with crankcases that do not have a groove in the sealing surface? and the blue rubber ones belong to old style px/rally, with groove?
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