P200E Cuts out when throttle opened

[Vespresso]

Hi Chaps. Having a bit of a mare with my Mk1, went on a ride-out (couple of weekends ago), went about 50 miles with no issues, had a pint and look round the custom show for a couple of hours and then started getting problems with the scoot.
It started OK, but when the throttle was open past half way, it dies, thought it was dirt in jets so cleaned them out, no joy, after struggling for about 20 miles coming home it died completely (about the same time as hitting reserve), then I couldn't get it started. Green wire at CDI had broke, so made temp connection still no joy & no spark, thought it could be CDI unit, so have replaced that and repaired green wire, spark now OK. Starts OK, but as soon as throttle opened fully, it dies (or tries to), stripped carb down and cleaned which didn't resolve it, took tank out and watched fuel out of tap = OK, shortened fuel pipe = no difference!

It has a 210 Malossi, 26mm standard type carb which has been up jetted these mods were done prior to me owning it,and has always run OK, after the re-build I put on a standard exhaust on it, (against advice on here), have done about 150 miles with no issues ,and then this, any ideas??


Could it be the timing has slipped out??

[sbwnik]

I've never known the timing slip, and I can't see how it would slip to that degree, but given that spec, it could be that the woodruff key has sheared, but I can't see how that ties in with running OK at low revs but not at high. It still sounds like a fuel problem to me, you're not running an inline filter?

[pxguru]

With things like this, when everything else has been checked it is always worth checking that it isnt the clutch side oil seal. How is the gearbox oil and level?

[Vespresso]

Sept 18, 2014 8:34:46 GMT sbwnik said:

I've never known the timing slip, and I can't see how it would slip to that degree, but given that spec, it could be that the woodruff key has sheared, but I can't see how that ties in with running OK at low revs but not at high. It still sounds like a fuel problem to me, you're not running an inline filter?

I agree, it does sounds (and feels) like a fuel issue, no I have not got an inline fuel filter. Gonna pop the flywheel off later and see if anything is a miss under there? If you think of anything else, let me know?

[Vespresso]

Sept 18, 2014 9:51:50 GMT pxguru said:

With things like this, when everything else has been checked it is always worth checking that it isnt the clutch side oil seal. How is the gearbox oil and level?

Can't see how that would make this kinda thing happen, but if you think that might be the cause then I will check oil level as its baffled me!

[vespasco]

Im wondering have you ever rode it WOT for more than a minute?
It could be lots of things but my first thoughts were fuel starvation.
Then, incorrect jetting and timing.
And I cant understand why you would use a stock exhaust with a malossi 210!!! Seriously, get yourself a Sip road or even a bgm bigbox. They still look standard... But will work so much nicer and you will enjoy your scooter more.
The 26mm carb is probably overkill with a stock exhaust and malossi. Id say an upjetted stock 24/24 would be better if you insist on using that stock exhaust..

[Vespresso]

Sept 18, 2014 22:38:09 GMT vespasco said:

Im wondering have you ever rode it WOT for more than a minute?
It could be lots of things but my first thoughts were fuel starvation.
Then, incorrect jetting and timing.
And I cant understand why you would use a stock exhaust with a malossi 210!!! Seriously, get yourself a Sip road or even a bgm bigbox. They still look standard... But will work so much nicer and you will enjoy your scooter more.
The 26mm carb is probably overkill with a stock exhaust and malossi. Id say an upjetted stock 24/24 would be better if you insist on using that stock exhaust..

Yeah I have rode it WOT for more then just a few minutes and has always been ok. When I bought the scoot the set up was 'as is' but had some huge lefty exhaust which snapped off, so I put a simonini on it (my choice back in the 80's) when I rebuilt the scoot (not the engine) I put on a standard exhaust which was a gift, advice on here said Sip2 , which I was intending to do, but as it ran fine I thought I'd leave as it was for now, sounds nice & does about 70 (at tops). It does sound like its fuel starvation, but have checked every thing I can think of, can't see it being the setup not being right as I have done about 150 miles without even the slightest hitch (with stock pipe). Was thinking of putting the simonini back on as a temp to see if that makes a difference, although it wouldn't make any sense?

[bsr65]

Have you changed the plug,? Iv,e had a stator plate pack up in the past with the same symptoms as yours, it would start up ok, but would die when opening the throttle. If it's the original stator the insulation on the wires may well be cracked (shorting).Also you said you cleaned the jets, but the tip of the pilot jet can be stubborn to clean if blocked. (a thin stand of copper wire will do the trick.

[vespasco]

*Did you re jet / set up the carb when you swapped exhausts?

[Vespresso]

Sept 19, 2014 8:36:33 GMT bsr65 said:

Have you changed the plug,? Iv,e had a stator plate pack up in the past with the same symptoms as yours, it would start up ok, but would die when opening the throttle. If it's the original stator the insulation on the wires may well be cracked (shorting).Also you said you cleaned the jets, but the tip of the pilot jet can be stubborn to clean if blocked. (a thin stand of copper wire will do the trick.

I have changed the plug, albeit with a spare used one, both have regular spark, did think it could be the stator plate before I replaced the CDI as I think it is the original, but that said, if the stator was failing, would I still get a regular spark? All jets seemed ok, cleaned carb/jets with fresh petrol and blew through with airline. Will check jets again. Thanks for your input.

[Vespresso]

Sept 19, 2014 15:39:57 GMT vespasco said:

*Did you re jet / set up the carb when you swapped exhausts?

No I didnt, the carb/jet set up is as it was when I bought it, with big pipe on it, as it ran fine with that set up with stock pipe, thought it would be ok. Could I have damaged something running it with too smaller jets, even though it ran ok?

Appreciate your help.

[vespasco]

Chances are, if it was all set up nicely with the big left hander pipe, that your running too rich because your main jet is too large.. This would also give you the same symptoms youre describing..
Lets us know what jets you have in your carb. Try a search on here for ways of how to do this if youre not sure.

[Vespresso]

Sept 19, 2014 17:17:42 GMT vespasco said:

Chances are, if it was all set up nicely with the big left hander pipe, that your running too rich because your main jet is too large.. This would also give you the same symptoms youre describing..
Lets us know what jets you have in your carb. Try a search on here for ways of how to do this if youre not sure.

In the morning I'm going to put back on for now the simonini I have (just cos I have it), see if that makes a difference, I could understand the jets being too big if it ran like a dog with two legs to start with, but it ran well for 150 miles before issues started, that's what's puzzling me.

The main jet is 135
Mixer tube is BE5
The Air jet is 160

[henri]

a car tuner i know maintains that "80% of fuelling faults turn out to be electrical" but thats cars not vesps , but youve been through the usual culprits , an it ran fine on them jets/pipe/set up , so either its blocked banjo/tank filters causing fuel starvation or a tap washer reacting to ethanol an swelling ,or a blocked tank breather ,that can just come on sudden , try runnin it with tank open n see , or meter up ya pick up ,memory says 105ohms , an swap ya cdi for a known gud 1 ,
1 other thing ,runnin a kit with a standard more restrictive exhaust can cause piston temps to soar at "wot" ,an cause seizures , had this on my hack ,killed by kerbing my sito an before gettin a cheap standard 1 threw on a vbb 2 port standard box to keep mobile ,was ok til a 3-4 mile wot thrash on bypass n soft seize on slip road , H

[vespasco]

Im not 100% sure what main jet stack id recommend for 26/26 si.. Yet a 135 main for a stock exhaust on a malossi seems rich.
Im not entirely convinced it ran perfectly for those 150 miles, especially if you only had a few minutes of wot.maybe those few mins. were what caused the problem? Just a thought...?!
I obow its hard to describe but better symptoms of what happened when it lost power (but kept going)?, Cut out suddenly? Would it run smooth below 1/2 throttle?
Would it run ok for miles below 1/2 throttle, just not when you open it up? Or??

[Vespresso]

It really did run fine for the 150 miles or so, no issues at all. it never cut out whilst riding, issues started after iI had done about 50 miles, left it standing for a couple of hours then started ok, but as soon as throttle opened it tried to die, struggled to ride it about 5 miles on half throttle to petrol station were I cleaned the jets out, which didn't make a difference. Went for about another 20 miles and died, thought it was running low on fuel, went to reserve, but wouldn't fire then came to a gentle halt. Had no spark, well I couldn't see one, by then I'd had enough so called out recovery.

I have now tried bypassing the fuel tank, tank filter & tap by using a hopper & pipe straight to the banjo, so have now ruled out them. Have replaced CDI unit, HT lead, cap & plug, have removed exhaust, and still starts first kick, but open throttle and it is the same, although seems better, it now kinda pulses, rather then dies. Gonna check the head gasket, and under the flywheel next. Anyone got anymore ideas??

[Vespresso]

Have now had the head off, and the flywheel off and all looks fine, have checked the gearbox oil, level is ok although oil is a bit grey, have put on the simonini and stripped carb down again and cleaned, have cleared all holes in carb & jets with thin wire, put it all back together and it still starts first kick, open throttle and it dies??

The only thing I haven't done is replace the carb or the stator plate, but I can't see it being that?

[pxguru]

I'm still not convinced it isn't the clutch side oil seal. If seal has not fully let go then it can still fit what you are seeing.

If not that the then my money is on the stator pick up.

[Vespresso]

Sept 23, 2014 6:48:50 GMT pxguru said:

I'm still not convinced it isn't the clutch side oil seal. If seal has not fully let go then it can still fit what you are seeing.

If not that the then my money is on the stator pick up.

I suppose the next thing would be to change the stator plate then, before stripping the engine down.

[Vespresso]

Have now replaced the Stator Plate and fecking thing is still not right! Started OK, but misfiring although didn't cut out just coughing and spluttering, adjusted the air screw in and out, eventually cut out now can't start it at all!

Is there a 'rule of thumb' how many turns the air screw should be out?

Anymore suggestions on what can be wrong with it?

[henri]

from memory on the fine thread screws (later efl 1's i think) its bout 3 turns out , yours is probably got the earlier coarse thread screw an base setting is 1 1/2 turns out ,more than 3 turns or no change from right in to all out bigger pilot jet indicated ,
weird my money was on a failing pick-up ,or ignition coil on stater ,the stator you just put on was it new or a "known" good spare , seems its only a failing seal left ,you said the gear oil was greyish ,did you replace the oil before trying the new stator as if no that would def indicate a clutch side seal prob ,as lack of oil allows more air to leak n the worsening symptoms , ya could check by filling with oil n re-setting mixture screw to the base-line an see if scoot then starts . H

[Vespresso]

H, it's doing my head in mate!
The stator plate is a brand new one, the gear oil is greyish, I did change gear oil once I finished the rebuild, but not recently it was about 150ish miles ago, what difference would changing gear oil now make?

[vespasco]

If youre happy it's not the stator (but do re check the timing)! or cdi, then before you split the cases to change the clutch seal,try changing the carb, or at clean and check the float and needle...could still be fuel starvation possibly caused by sticky needle.
I think you may have solved (1 of)  the original problems with the cdi, changed the whole ignition system (except the flywheel)! but maybe the timing still needs tweaking if was hard to start,coughing etc.
Does it smoke when it runs? - clutch seal!?
Any petrol smell from gear oil? - clutch seal!?
Problems after half throttle? - clutch seal/ fuel starvation!?

[bsr65]

just a thought, how strong did the magnets on the flywheel feel, they should be strong enough to hold a large spanner.

[henri]

it was just a thought that if you'd drained the oil an not re-filled before tryin to start scoot with new stator the non-startin points to clutch seal,
an as bsr65 says each magnet should hold 1 1/2 pounds , i use biggest spanner to hand or large adjustable ,
youve tried all the "usual suspects" but heres a "wild-un" as prob started at high revs where alternater voltages are gettin high maybe a break in green kill switch wire is shorting/sparking under max load , take the green wire on cdi that dont come from engine off an try it ,
i cant remember if you ever described the original cut-out ,was it sudden =leccy,or stumbling to a halt =fuel , think it was more the former ,with out the green kill wire everything else lectrical is new/replaced cept the reg box so another "wild-un" is maybe replace that , ive heard of them doing loads of weird stuff maybe this is a new "wrinkle" to be added to the "weird s##t vespa/scoot lectrics do" list , H

[vespasco]

Light bulb moment!! Empty gearbox - less compression pushing against the seal , more air and no oil to help seal it!! Cheers again h

What was the original colour of the gear oil?
And what colour is your 2 stroke oil?
Did you smell for petrol in the gear oil?
It could all help determine the fault...looking more n more like the seal if your fuel supply is all sorted...and your electrics seem sorted, bar the weird ship that crops up as h says.

To help summarize - Are we right in saying;
it starts ok?
idles ok? Nice and smooth?
rides ok below 1\4 throttle?
Rides ok below 1\2 throttle?
Anything over 1\2 throttle and it wants to die?
And then it dies slowly?
Is there any stuttering when it dies? Or just smoothly dies with more throttle?
Gets worse with more throttle?
Gets worse when running for long periods?

And before it was all ok running nice in all throttle positions inc WOT
Youre happy there are no air leaks in the head and carb.. complete igintion circuit changed (bar flywheel)
Complete fuel supply checked
(The changing of the exhausts maybe have had only a small effect on yours symptoms)
Sorry, lots of questions!
Its pointing even more and more to the you know what

[Vespresso]

Just an update, after changing the stator plate, the timing was well out, have now sorted that, had to extend the slots in the stator to get it to turn far enough clockwise, starts ok, and revs up ok to half throttle, passed half throttle doesn't seem to make any difference ie doesn't rev any higher, have now purchased a range of main jets from 126 as recomended with Malossi kit, through to 130 as found to work on scooterhelp.com, although can't see why it would have been ok before with a 135, also, the wife bought me a Sip 2 exhaust for valentines (big smiles!), so gonna try those bits out when we get a warm evening.

Just a thought, could I have fitted a rev limited CDI unit, how would I know??

[henri]

it would of cost twice what a un-limited cdi costs , an only kicks in at 7000rpm , your problems bout 4-5000rpm, an that def sounds like a blocked main jet/atomiser ,or too large a main an its "bogging" , if you go over half throttle an it doesnt rev out ,do the revs rise a tad as you ease the throttle back a twitch , as thats over big main jet , still a bit of a weird one tho,bet its twisting ya noodle, what filter set up are you using ,is there a chance its blocked an not passing enuff air to go over half revs , H

[Vespresso]

It's a standard air filter but has the heart shape drilled out, looks like it was made that way rather then a DIY jobby, have run in with filter off and no difference so can't see that it's nlocjed, yeah I think the revs do rise a tad when throttle eased off, and yeah, it has twisted me noddle!!

Glad it's a hobby scoot rather then a main mode of transport!!

[Vespresso]

It's been a while, but have recently jumped back on trying to resolve the issue of the scoot not revving past half throttle.

After having replaced all of the parts relating to possible fuel starvation, with no result, I then changed all the parts relating to the electrics, again with no joy, replaced the piston rings and again no joy.

After lots of time, effort & money, it dawned on me that I was only able to start the scoot with the choke on, even after I had it running for a bit, and during the recent hot weather, so this made me think that too much air was getting into the chamber, and, as a few of you chaps had previously mentioned, it could be a failed oil seal, this in mind I decided to try and find if there was an air leak. I blanked off the carb inlet, fitted a rubber bung to the exhaust manifold, and using an adapter with a schrader valve, and an air compressor, I filled the chamber with about 20psi of compressed air, and would you believe it, it didn't hold the air!
After lots of fairy liquid, and much searching, I was unable to find the source of the leak, then a light bulb moment, I filled the chamber up with petrol, and then 20psi of air, to see if fuel would p*ss out of the head, barrel or maybe a hairline crack in the casing, nope, not even a drizzle, undoing the oil drain plug, and guess where all my petrol went, yep, straight into the gearbox!!

Looks like it's either the clutch side oil seal, as you guys suggested, or, the crankcase gasket around the crank shaft disc, either way, the engines apart now, with new seals and gasket set on order!!

Watch this space!