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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 14, 2014 15:44:16 GMT
Hi all,
A while back I had a heat seize incident which was really unpleasant and the cause, as identified by a mate who knows his scooters, was that the oil was not being pulled into the carb. A replaced oil pump gear seemed to fix it.
Today I noticed a big air bubble in the oil line. With the engine idling, the oil does move very slowly towards the carb body but then stops about 1cm ahead of the air bubble. I disconnected the line hoping the oil would run out but it didn't. If anything, it started to inch towards the reservoir. For no reason at all, I blew the oil towards the reservoir - just to see what would happen really. Unsurprisingly the oil moved back up the line and the oil filler neck gargled a bit. So then I blew down the oil filler neck. I blew my lungs out for ages, nearly busting a blood vessel in the process, but no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get the last centimetre of air out of the line. After ten minutes or so, the oil had retreated back up the line towards the reservoir by about 20cm. So I'm concerned that there is a blockage somewhere maybe, and am concerned that it's only a matter of time before I seize again. I'll run with a mixture for now I guess, but want to fix this. Any ideas folks? Will I need to take the tank out?
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Post by henri on Aug 14, 2014 16:44:00 GMT
sounds like a blockage or leak down in the carb box area ,not sure ,after a incident where i forgot to fill a tank many years ago have always pre-mixed ,dont know which skid mark was longer the 1 on road or 1 elsewhere ,but if ya can disconnect the line an blow oil back up into tank that aint blocked so problem must be inside carb box,so ya dont have to take tank of i guess. Henri
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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 15, 2014 12:22:58 GMT
Cheers Henri. I'd presumed that once I disconnected the line the oil would run out rather than move in the opposite direction towards the reservoir. Is that normal? And I was even more surprised that I couldn't blow it the other way (people round here know I love my scooter but I think they'd have been shocked to see me fellating it with such gusto...)
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Post by rab on Aug 15, 2014 14:14:53 GMT
Pre mix is the only sure way of making sure the 2 is mixing .pull the 2 pipe from the carb end block both pipes off and never use it again .the jug for premix is only 3 or 4 quid and you get piece of mind
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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 20, 2014 20:02:06 GMT
Pre-mix is the way I'll go I reckon. One thing confuses me (actually most things do); when I disconnect the oil line into the carb, why doesn't the oil run out? Why does it take so much pressure to force it out drip by drip?
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Post by rab on Aug 20, 2014 20:18:35 GMT
that has to be a blockage take the oil cap off see if the flow gets faster if not its a tank out job to empty the tub. you could always just put a bolt in the end of the pipe jubilee clip it and leave it for another time
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Post by sbwnik on Aug 20, 2014 22:10:57 GMT
It runs out slowly because it's very viscous (as opposed to vicious!) and the cap is essentially causing a partial vacuum. It's supposed to run like that. Take the lid off and it should drop more quickly.
As for autolubes failing... There are a lot of myths about this, I discussed it recently with a couple of pro mechanics and a few regular spanner men (like me). Between us, we've over 200 years of riding scooters. Also between us, we knew of seven broken pumps, all on high mileage engines. It's like anything else - it will wear out over time, but they're generally good for 100,000 miles or more.Keep an eye on the spindle and it'll be fine. Check it when you do any clutch work and it won't be a problem.
The logic of 'remove it, it will fail' is flawed - you could argue that about any mechanical component, and it's generally the same luddites who don't think split rims are anything else but a con: If it was true in 1963, then it's still true in 2014!
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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 20, 2014 22:39:09 GMT
Thanks again folks. SBW Nik - my description of the oil movement is with the cap off the whole time. Today i syringed some of the oil out; I had to force the plunger backwards to draw any oil. There did seem to be some sort of whispy white-ish matter floating in the oil that came out of the first couple of syringe-fuls and I wondered whether mixing two brands of oil (both fully synthetic but one very cheap) had caused some congealing. Can't find any evidence of this being a common occurrence though.
I'll certainly pre-mix for now but as you say, I don't really want to dismiss the autolube altogether - I'd rather fix it.
I can keep syringing it out until it's empty but I reckon the tank is fairly full so it will take me ages. If there was some gunk in the reservoir, might a dash of petrol help to dissolve it do you think? Otherwise it's a tank out job I guess, and I've never attempted anything like that before...
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Post by sbwnik on Aug 21, 2014 11:37:33 GMT
Tank out is easy enough, putting it back is more tricky.
Turn the fuel off, run the engine till it starts to pick up revs, lift the seat and unfasten the three bolts at the front that hold it on, then the two bolts at the back to release the tank. Then lift the tank gently up.
Once you can get your hand inside, release the two clips that hold the fuel and oil pipes (it's easier with someone to hold the tank) and then you're away.
If you want to try changing the oil tank, it's a straight forward job. I may have a spare one in the garage if it helps, not sure if it's complete though.
Replacing it is a straight forward reversal, although the tap is one of those 'either it will go in first time, or you'll be there for an hour' jobs. Some people tie string to it to help it through, but TBH I find it as easy just to pilot it gently through.
Oh, and no... Don't mix fully synth with cheap, you can get reaction, but unless you're running a tuned engine, fully synth is a waste of money, semi will do the job equally well.
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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 21, 2014 12:33:37 GMT
This is so helpful - genuinely appreciated thanks. I've been working on it today. I got the tanks out, the hardest bit was pulling the fuel line out of the carb body into the frame. Without the tool to separate the oil tank, I emptied it instead through the gauge opening and there was definitely some congealed sh*te in there. I'm loathe to fill it up with fresh oil until I've cleaned it thoroughly. Is there any sort of solvent or thinner I can flush the tank with? Also, can the bottom of the tank be opened, by removing the nut (looks like a nut) where the tubing comes out?
I found the bottle of oil that I'd used previously; Asda two stroke, didn't say whether it was synthetic or not. What was I thinking? Never again
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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 21, 2014 12:34:50 GMT
*by gauge opening I mean the sight glass
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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 21, 2014 18:41:46 GMT
Maybe it's one of those urban myth things gazpx!
Fuel tank back in, oil visibly being drawn into carburettor, running a bit oily for now as added oil to the fuel (running rich?) but otherwise it's job done.
Putting the fuel tank back was a fugging nightmare! It wasn't the tap bit (that was fine), it was poking the fuel line back into the carb. Why does nowhere say that you have to remove the back wheel to poke the line in??? I was pushing that bugger for ages from inside the frame expecting to see it poke through into the carb, not realising that it was dangling around inside the frame! Is it possible to replace it without taking the wheel off?
Chuffed I've done it though - not really done anything like it before being new to this. Thanks again for the help.
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Post by henri on Aug 22, 2014 7:14:33 GMT
gettin a fuel line in is "a zen thing" ya cant toucn n see it at same time ,like cables you have to "be the pipe/cable n think it thru" ,an thats enuff hippy crap for today, like gettin taps thru first time is always hardest ,after a few goes ya can usually do it in ya sleep ,H
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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 22, 2014 8:10:58 GMT
I see. I used lots of force to no avail, but I didn't use THE force. I will in future. Thank you henri-won-kenobi
<bows head solemnly>
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Post by sbwnik on Aug 22, 2014 11:57:44 GMT
Ah sorry, I meant to throw in my fuel line tip - Remove the inlet from the carb with the pipe. Fasten a zip tie around it, with another fed through that to give you something to hold (sort of interlocking rings, with the second kept quite loose)and then tie a length of string to that. As you withdraw the tank, the string follows, as you replace the tank you just keep tension on until the inlet appears. Narrow pliers, job done.
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Post by sbwnik on Aug 22, 2014 11:58:11 GMT
Oh, and something to clean the tank out with?
Petrol!
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Post by zoltan007 on Aug 22, 2014 19:23:14 GMT
Damn! I was going to use petrol to clean but wasn't sure so didn't bother in the end. But the oil is moving much better anyway. Went for a spin today for the first time in a couple of weeks - was great.
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