Can't find neutral. Help !!!!!!!

[jonnyboy23]

Happy monday everyone,

Having issue's with the gear selector, i'm in the process of attaching the gear cables, i've already attached the clutch cable. I got the misses to push the scoot forward while holding in the clutch, while I pushed the batwing through the gears by hand. Unable to find neutral,  a chap on the facebook help page suggested that the gear arm rod wasn't seated properly. So I took the gear selector off, I noticed there was a scoring mark on the top inside of the gear selector where something has been rubbing on it causing little shards of metal to come of. I cleaned it up and had a go at seating it again,  thats where im not sure if im seating it properly. I seated the spindle bit on the gear selector arm into the centre of the grooved part of the gear arm rod. I then pushed it pack into its seated position.  Should it push back that easy. I read u had to pull the gear handle back to first to make it seat back. Any help would be great.

Great forum by the way.

[sime66]

OK, mate – calm yourself; it’s fiddly and frustrating, but quite doable – just did it myself.
I’ll come back to any actual faults with selector box afterwards, but the way to do the gears and refit selector box is roughly:
With Selector Box OFF the scooter:
Set handlebars to neutral (there’s a mark under the grip – tape it there if I helps)
Attach and tighten gear cables so that neutral lines up on batwing and bars.
Then check that batwing moves through all gears with shifter – Selector box OFF the scooter. (Use adjusters for slight change, or redo if too far out).
When you’re happy that the grip-batwing movement is correct you put the selector box back on scooter as follows:
Keep selector box in 4th, and roll scooter/wheel, and use connecting rod to put scooter in 4th too (lifting back wheel up is easiest, I use a couple of bricks, but there’s tidier ways).
With scooter and selector box in 4th get the arm into the groove as you did before.
Then wiggling at selector box to get on the studs, and shifting down at grip, use gears to pull selector box back into position, pushing and wiggling gently.
Then either with wheel lifted, or by rolling, make sure you still have your gears. Then it’s time for a test ride…………..
Now to problems with selector box, connecting rod, cruciform:
Was it OK before you changed clutch and gear cables? Why were you doing that? Is that problem fixed?
Have you got a good clutch, or does it also still need setting up properly?
Is the rod screwed tight into the cruciform? (It’s opposite thread, they may come loose or bugger up threads)
Can you show photos of the scoring, so we can work out what it is?
Have you checked over selector box for wear? damage? I wrote refitting method first for you, but you need to check it out really.
Try here:
vespamaintenance.com/engine/select/
and
www.scootermercato.com/Garage/Tech-Tips/Selector-Box-Rebuild

There’s videos and stuff, but that should keep you going for a bit.

[jonnyboy23]

Cheers for that mate. I was under the impression that you had to find neutral first before, so u can set the gears. Ive had basically done a rebuild on the engine with the aid of the scooter techniques dvd. I replaced the seals and bearings etc, and the cruciform. I also put in new clutch plates. Knowing me I probably f**ked up somewhere down the line. With regards to clutch im guessing its working properly, but Im not very clear on how u know if it is set up properly. One chap said maybe the rod is set in one gear, and not actually going through the gears properly.

[sime66]

You can narrow down the cause by setting up the selector box with it off the scooter. (That’s normal to do anyway). If it is OK off the scooter then it’s more likely to be a problem inside the engine (gears, cruciform, clutch….).
Have you checked selector box for  wear/damage?

- Yes, you set-up the gear cables in Neutral, off the engine. (Your engine won’t effect it).
- You then use 4th gear to help you put the arm back in place and pull the selector box back on; it’s a combination of pushing the rod in, waggling the selector box on, and using the gear-shift to pull it on.

If your selector box is OK and going through all gears before you put it back on, but then gives problems after setting up and reinstalling correctly, then more investigation will be needed, but it's got to make sense to check it over and set it up properly before going there..

Also with selector box off and back wheel lifted, it's easy to roll the wheel and go up and down through the gears to check rod,cruciform are actually moving in and out correctly.

I think you're trying to set up and test it with it all assembled; I think you should test each half, as above, before connecting selector box to rod.

[henri]

as sime said check the selecter box of the engine ,ya quadrant (batwing) should have 5 indents on outer edge ,neutral is the smaller 1 2nd round clockwise ,to get selecter box back on it needs to be set right round to 4th .from ya second post it says youve just had the cases apart ,if selecter works ok the most common reasons for a disappeared neutral after re-build are cruciform on back to front or early/later flat type mixed up,or the loose gears havent been put back in correctly ,usually its the first gears back to front a easy mistake to make ,i know ive done it once ,but check ya selecter box first an then pop it on an move quadrant to neutral position ,not forgetting ya have to spin the engine or back wheel for box to change between gears , ya might find neutral has suddenly appeared , ya right above that it needs to be in neutral an twist grip lined up on the neutral mark to set the cables up, H

[jonnyboy23]

Hello again, I've took all you boys advice. And set up the gear cables of the engine. The batwing goes through all 4 gears and neutral with out any problems. So I then went on to attaching the gear selector box, back onto the engine. I've managed to find neutral, but the slightest movement of the wheel knocks it back in to gear, even without the clutch in. I have also noticed that sometimes the catch on the gear selector doesn't always sit flush in the neutral notch. Would some fine tuning of the cable adjusters like you boys suggested sort this out. Or maybe is this a cruciform or clutch problem. Thanks again for all your help chaps.

[sime66]

It’s looking more likely that it’s gears/cruciform, but don’t go there yet; it’s a bit difficult from just your description, and not knowing if you’ve yet done everything suggested.
What do you mean ‘sometimes the catch on the gear selector doesn't always sit flush in the neutral notch’?
It comes back to previous suggestions:
- Have you inspected overhauled the selector box for damage or wear?
- Have you set it up in Neutral – to sit in the neutral notch? – Yes, use the fine adjusters to get it correct. Or redo if too far out - patience is needed for this job, especially the first time.
- What’s the story with the selector box damage you mentioned previously?
Then:
- Have you raised the back wheel, as suggested, and pulled the rod through the gears as you turn the wheel? Have you got neutral like that?
- Have you then repeated this with the selector box on, and using the handlebar shifter to go through the gears as you turn the wheel? Have you got neutral like that?
- Are you saying you can’t get it to spin in neutral with the wheel raised? You can’t push the scoot in neutral either?

If you've inspected/overhauled and set it up right, and you’re sure it’s still jumping out of neutral then I’m going to hand you over to our more experienced chaps to take it from there; I don’t want to be the one to suggest more involved jobs.

As an afterthought, is it the same selector box you removed when you did your engine work, or a different one? If it’s the old one, was it OK before?

[mickymidas]

Usually the 1st sign of a cruciform going is jumping out of gear when riding....my thoughts are with gear cable adjustment....one or both may be slightly too tight , having the effect of pulling the selector out of gear...might be worth slacking off both cables a tad .

[henri]

mickys right about the symptom for a crackered cruccy , but this is a problem thats appeared after cases where split an cruccy replaced if i'm reading the post right ,thats why i suggested if prob cant be traced to selecter box then its inside the lump,if ya take of the selecter box an with rear wheel raised find neutral by moving gear rod all the way in whilst turning wheel ,helps if plugs out aswell, then 1 "notch/bit" back out for where neutral should be, then does scoot jump into gear if wheel is turned like you describe ,if not its def the selecter box at fault ,if yes i'd say prob's in the box an prob 1 of the 2 things i mentioned earlyer ,
probably fine tuning of gear cables is needed ,its a difficult job to get just right first time an always needs fiddling with , h

[jonnyboy23]

Alright there, had some time this morning to have a fiddle on the scoot. I've done the checks u boys suggested. One of em being taking the selector box right of and finding neutral with the gear rod. Im happy to say I've found neutral with it like that, but once I try and pop the box back on it seems to loose it again. Also when in neutral with the back wheel risen,
When u turn the back wheel by hand u can here a clanking sound, is it meant to make this sound, I'm pretty sure its the gear cogs turning.