PX150EFL Engine Strip for Inspection / Repair

[sime66]

I’m not rushing the build, so it doesn’t matter too much if I forget some things, but I’m still going to have a good go at getting this as complete as possible. Getting down to the fine detail of the order now, concentrating on understanding the fitting of the Cosa clutch, with a few questions if anyone has time (Haynes shows a Mk1 reinstallation, and I’ll watch Sausage tonight):

1. Does same ‘push-rod kit’ fit mk1 & Cosa clutches? ie I’m renewing with same items.
2. Do I want flanged Cosa nut and serrated washer, or wavy washer?

This still needs a tweak tonight, but it’s getting closer:

[henri]

not 100% sure but the same thimble/plunger is ok for both clutches ,i know sip an i think twisted rods sell a uprated plunger with a bearing on its end,but thats mostly for uprated clutches with more plates/springs that take more pressure to work.
an from memory all the cosa nuts ive seen have had a serrated lock washer behind em,not a spring or wavy 1.seem to remember people have used the fancy nordlock (cam)washers aswell .but there expensive compared to a single use serrated washer an dab of semi-permanent thread lock.dont use permanent thread lock as ya need 250degrees+ to break the lock if ya need nut off again,god forbid.
if youve any doubts ive always found the sip tech question an forum helpful an quick (24 hours)to answer ,an reliable . H

[sime66]

Cheers H,

I did some digging, and I think the SIP#87090000 is correct for the Cosa; the plate seems to have a flat edge that matches the Cosa basket, whereas the older one is a full-circle. Could be wrong, but that’s what I reckon anyway.

The Loctite I’m getting, is ‘Thread locker - 243 – Blue – Removable’, which seems right to me.

I'm not getting any gasket sealant; going to spend a good time getting all my surfaces clean and flat (like the old 2p trick).

I’m going to get a Nordlock washer too for the clutch; it’s a pretty crucial nut, I know they’re well-rated, and it’s good to have a couple of options when fitting it - SIP#80101200 - £1.15

I’m ordering everything first thing in the morning, so now I’ll leave you all in peace for a few days, while I get on with getting everything cleaned up, checked and ready to rebuild.

Thanks for everyone's help.

[vespasco]

From your description you're correct on the pressure plate

If all the gasket surfaces are clean and without marks etc then gaskets smeared with grease will be fine. No cement required.
Its sometimes worth checking everything fits and works properly before you grease the gaskets and torque it all up.

The cosa clutch uses cosa nut and cosa washer (wavy)! Cosa pressure plate and spring. Torqued correctly should be fine. Ive never used the nordlock so cant comment on that.

Remember, You may need to soak the clutch in oil over night?!?




From your description you're correct on the pressure plate

If all the gasket surfaces are clean and without marks etc then gaskets smeared with grease will be fine. No cement required.
Its sometimes worth checking everything fits and works properly before you grease the gaskets and torque it all up.

The cosa clutch uses cosa nut and cosa washer (wavy)! Cosa pressure plate and spring. Torqued correctly should be fine. Ive never used the nordlock so cant comment on that.

Remember, You may need to soak the clutch in oil over night?!?



*Edit;
Ive just looked at your order,
Circlips only needed if you twisted/f£&@! them getting them off.

Push rod kit - youre going for the cosa 2 clutch right?
If so then you need clutch parts for cosa 2 clutch, brass shim as in your order, pressure plate for cosa 2 etc. nut n washer for cosa 2

Vsr nut n washer or cosa 2 nut and wavy washer - you only need one or the other! Do it once, do it right

1 x cylinder stud? I guess you have your reasons?!

Gasket set says with oil pump?!

All others seem ok.

Gearbox oil?
Kickstart buffers?
Was your primary drive assembly ok? Did you check it?
After your damage i really think its worth it!! And its a cheap part(s)
Did you check your gears for play? Oversized shims are quite cheap too and easy to fit.
Did you get the correct rear hub seal 27 or 30 mm hub?

I believe the thicker spacer washer behind the clutch should be the same? Thickness?! But ask someone else. You have px125/150 right?? Do you need to grind a bit out of the clutch cover for the cosa or is that for different clutch?

[sbwnik]

Spacer washer/drive gear is the same.

Wavy washer, not serrated. Nordlocks are overkill.

The improved pushrod makes for a smoother operation, that's all. No real need with a standard cosa clutch.

[henri]

the cover may or may not need grinding ,it depends on the model its from,an the excact cosa (new/old)type clutch ,an also wether sime's exploding clutch has already done the job,it might just need tidying up to not rub,put clutch in an cover on an turn engine over by hand an feel for it binding/locking up .if not sure a rub over inside of cover high spots with a cd marking pen/crayon/colour pencil an back on an engine turned will show were work needs doing ,just gentle dremel the shiny/silver bits back til no more rubbing an then a touch more to allow for crank end-float,its only thou's of a inch an mostly away from the cover as pressure is put on clutch,but a bit of clearance is needed.
an ya cant count the cost of tools into the job,as youve got em for life ,just like the skills ya learning,quality tools always pay for themselves i believe,youve just got to use em enough.an yes i do polish mine an have everyday an best sets ,especially bodywork hammers,which ive lost count of how many hang on shed wall,but maybe thats just my "thing".
havent really used nordlocks much,but the engineering behind em is sound an have heard good reports about em.all sip tubeless rims should be supplied with em,an if there recomended for such a safety critical thing as stopping wheels falling off i reckon ya can trust em.i'd still use threadlock,but thats the way i was dragged up,by belts n braces an forced fed wippet tripe.southwest were you are the equivalent is probably turnips an 2 bits of binder twine holding ya donkey jacket shut.or is that the northen bigot/southen-jessie hating alter ego in me coming out to play.i have fancied living that way myself 1 or twice,but all the job positions as "village idiot" were hereditary ,an didnt have the perks my present village allows. H

[sime66]

I wasn't going to look anymore tonight, but my phones beeped three times to tell me you're busy on here......

Vespasco,
Wow! thanks for your thoroughness,
I’m ordering tomorrow whether I’ve got all the answers or not, got to set myself a deadline otherwise I’ll just keep tweaking it and get nowhere, so in some cases, where I’ve been asking or investigating, I’ve still got several options on my notepad, which is what I posted earlier (the notepad, not the order) – it’s changing all the time and will be, until it gets converted into an order. (All the nut and washer options are an example of that, which I’ll now trim down to Cosa nut and wavy washer because I have a pretty general agreement - no Nordlock, no serrated washer – so now order tidied-up!).
That’s also why there’s one stud not four – you put the number in at ordering stage.

That aside you have got me thinking more on a couple of things:

· I’ve selected the bearings and seals for my scooter by checking the SIP listing against my model, age, engine number, so it ties up with my scooter. I know I’ve asked about my hub size before (not here), had the answer and since forgotten it. I’m glad you reminded me to double check; I will do that before I do the order, my brain is giving up on me for tonight.
· I have not (yet) disassembled the innards of the cush drive, I know you’ve mentioned it a couple of times. I think it’s OK; I’ll keep it in mind, and I’ll definitely look up the springs and stuff, and weigh it up. It is not a simple job for me; it’s drilling out the rivets, changing the springs, and having it re-riveted. It would probably cost me a lot to have someone do it to be sure it was done properly, and I believe the test for the springs is the noise when shaking it, and it sounds fine. There was no damage to the primary, other than the swarf introduced into the bearing by my drilling; it hasn't turned with that swarf.
· I have not checked play on my gears. I should have done it before disassembly, but I forgot then. I will be cleaning and reassembling the gears and will check then with feelers. I will have done it before rebuild.
· This spacer washer behind the clutch is something I haven’t really understood yet, so I’ve ordered the extra spacer if I need it. It might be that the spacer I already have (because I don’t have autolube) is already sufficient, it may be that the spacer was only needed in cases of particularly poorly made Cosas. I think I’ll understand it better when I go to put it in, and maybe take some photos and ask the experts. I have the spacer in case I need it. In this case, if my clutch is in and working, I’ll be delighted to have only wasted £4.85.

There are a few things (those above – and no doubt some other things yet to crop up) that need a bit more thought, and possibly some more stuff ordered. I’m trying to get the bulk here at the same time as getting the seals and bearings – there will be a pause now whilst I wait for this lot, and then take the seals and bearings to be fitted into shiny casings; I won’t be reassembling for at least a fortnight. I have time to look in greater detail at those things you’ve mentioned, and probably others that I haven’t yet dealt with.

The other things are covered:

· Circlips might get omitted. I might have twisted the gear one getting it off; I’m going to have another look at it. (Each section of engine internal is bagged and boxed ready for individual attention over the next few days). H mentioned dodgy circlip on the primary possibly causing some problems, so it lurked in my mind to be careful with them. I found them on SIP and put them on my notepad; it’s only a few quid to have them if I need them.
· I’ve got 2 litres of RockOil SAE30 coming, which should last me plenty of oil changes. (This is just my SIP order; I’ve spent £200 on other stuff too).
· I have brand new kick-start buffers, so didn’t need to order.
· As far as I’m aware the only difference for the ‘with oil pump’ gasket set is the two carb gaskets. Those are so inaccurate anyway that I’ll be making my own gaskets there, so ‘with/out oil pump’ doesn’t matter. The main engine one is to suit my scooter (checked by engine number), and all the other bits and pieces are the same.

H,
You’ll never outdo the village idiot here!
I’ll be tidying up inside the clutch housing where my old clutch chewed it a bit, and we’ve previously established the bits of the cover which (may) need dremelling too. I will go at both very carefully. I’m a bit heavy handed with the power tools – much safer with a nice sharp pencil!
The whole fitting a clutch thing is new to me, and I didn’t even get to look at a properly installed one when disassembling because this one was in bits.
The cost of adding to my tools is always money well spent; in all honestly this scooter has cost me more than it’s value in the last 12 months (£600 end of last year, and £600 so far this year); it is true I’ve learned a lot, it has come at quite a price; if this job is successful I’ll probably still think it’s worth it; if not there is always the canal for it on the way to the pub!

[sbwnik]

Ah... The spacer!

It's not a Cosa clutch particular, it's there on all non auto-lube engines. On auto-lube engines, it's the drive gear for the pump. It's equally possible to use a autolube gear instead.

[vespasco]

You dont really need to check tolerances on dissaembly. You need to clean them up, put them together and them check on re assembly.

Wouldn't the cosa 2 clutch for 125/150 fit straight on with no mods?
Or is it just the larger 200 clutches that need the cover and oil flip notched/grinded?
Or did i miss it somewhere? Sorry.

Wow 2l of engine oil! Thats like 10000's of miles worth.!! Save your money. 1l will be more than enough!


We're all learning.

Keep it up

[sime66]

Morning all,

You're mainly talking about specifics to do with the clutch installation now , spacer/cover-grinding; those are things I really won't know until I try to install the clutch, which is weeks away, after the rebuild. I think I've ordered everything I might need when I get to it. I'm certain I'll need help then, but until I see the gear alignment and cover fouling I won't know if it's going to be an easy job, or a pig. Lets wait and see. vespasco the previous thread discusses probable cover mods needed for re-using my clutch cover for a Cosa, or using a p200 cover:

vespa.proboards.com/thread/4001/cosa-clutch-150-engine






The 1L oil cost barely more than the 0.5L, so I got two. I've been getting through rather a lot lately, I might well be in and out of this engine a few times in the weeks/months ahead, and I'll also be doing a few flushes. - I don't want to be held up because I've run out of engine oil, and I don't expect much to be sitting around for too long.

[sime66]

All tidied up and ordered - £173.14, including £4.11 UPS shipping.
I'm totally skint for a couple of weeks, and I've got a lot of scrubbing to do, but that costs nowt!.........
Cheers, Chaps.

[henri]

the only difference between carb gaskets is 1 hole for the auto-lube oil .i cant be bothered to make my own an always get a cheap kit from india for the models ive got .they always need fettling but its less work than starting from scratch an they cost less than 1 sheet of gasket paper.
for unobtainable gaskets its gasket paper (cornflake packets in past when skint) an a ball-pein hammer used lightly .lay paper over casing/chaincase/crankmouth ,can be held in place by blob of grease to start ,use the ball side of hammer an lightly tap paper where the bolt holes are ,VERY lightly mind,an at a angle ,using the sharp edge of the casing to cut to size ,soon as 1 hole is done drop a bolt in to hold in place an do next,working round the casing,til all are done,then flat side of hammer at 45degrees work round the edge (inside/outside) an hey presto a made to size gasket for any joint with all holes in right place.for fiddly corners nail scissors .told ya i was tight .
just for interest,was on simply bearings today looking for xmas tree bearing for a vbb ,ng bearings =2.93 skf =3.49 ,same bearing but for a px skf=3.90 koyo (the 1 i called kymo other day,doh) 4.70 an there good bearings .drive side ball-bearings 25x62x12 skf 8.90 an ng 6.80 , all free delivery by first class mail . an seals an o-rings at same shop ,all ya need is size (inside/outside an width)or the numbers on outside of old bearing/seal. too late for you as youve ordered , but for future information an others reading this.anyway my missus is ill an i'm on full-time nurse/childcare dutys so i best slip my uniform on an make tea an beat the brat.sorry meant feed , H
an it was the clutch circlip i mentioned as maybe cause of problem .

[glscoot]

With a new built engine i normally do an oil check after 400miles, basically after its run in. I also install magnetic oil plugs, not necessary but a good addition. Getting the Primary fitted properly is key, it can shear the locking tab washer if not done properly and make sure the woodruff keys are tapped home properly and everything else is fairly simple. It does help if you have 4 hands for the installation of the piston but can be done on your own. I mark on the piston where the piston ring stops are.
Mark on the casings 'NO OIL' and use a 50ml syringe to fill the engine with oil, PX engine takes 250/275ml.
Take your time and double check everything, work diagonally when tightening the engine M7 bolts, especially the 4 crank nuts and cylinder nuts, not so important with the outer M7 nuts and use copper grease on the 'D' bolts and exhaust bolt, especially the exhaust bolt. Also use grease as a glue to hold anything in place, needle bearings, spring and on the internal bearings and anything that goes through a bearing, a light film on the casing face will hold the gasket in place, little oil on the internal barrel makes fitting the piston easier. All this oil & grease can make the engine smoke and smell a little but will soon burn off. It also turns the engine oil black/green but thats fine.
gary

[henri]

ya can put piston in barrel on the bench an then lower barrel/piston down onto studs or just crankcase mouth without studs an do little end then,if worried about not cracking rings ,just stuff a rag in casemouth so nothing can drop in like a circlip/tool dirt or broke ring if it goes wrong .ya can use a jubilee clip as a ring compressor ,if ya cant find 1 wide enuff wrap a cut up ali coke can round first.never had a problem doing a scoot/single piston engine myself.tho i have got big hands like a gibbon,an only used a compressor on british parralel twins ,were both pistons move up together an theres 2 rings an a oil control ring on each ,real BA**A**D,go easy an dont force em ,the bottom of vespa barrels has a quite large taper to make piston/ring inserting easier .they practically fit emselves ,honest.
with a new build there isnt "running in oil" like for 4 strokes,i usually drain an replace at 250 miles an also check torque of head/crankcase/an mounts bolts/nuts to be sure the've bedded in right an are not coming loose .an the usual spark plug n timing checks .piaggio recomend it at the first 500 mile service but most dealers dont bother as its extra time/work they dont get paid for,an by 500 miles its already done the damage if its going too. H

[sime66]

I don’t know if I’m glad that you’re confident that I’m going to even get to 250/400 miles, or worried with your solutions to some of these fitting problems that I didn’t even realise existed yet!

Seriously though, you are a couple of steps ahead of me; I’ll be doing this lot when I get my cases back from the local mechanic, and the stuff he needs has only just left Germany, but there are some tricks-of-the-trade gems coming out here, that I am making a note of, and will refer back to when the time comes. I can imagine a huge amount of Q&A then, and I hope you’re still as enthusiastic about helping when I’m getting nervous about that job.

I can’t reply to each specific item mentioned because I can’t even picture the problem in some cases, let alone understand the solution, but it is all going into brain-storage, for later on.

There is no rush now that the bulk of the ordering is done; that big order probably won’t be here this side of the weekend, so I probably won’t get my engine back until the weekend after that, which is Spring Bank Holiday Weekend. It will be June before I’m running in – if I don’t hit problems. (That’s three Bank-Holiday-Deckchair-Chucking-Weekends missed!)

I’ve done a little check-sheet for my next stage, which is getting each lump of kit, and stripping, inspecting, cleaning, ordering anything that’s dodgy, reassembling and checking – then it will go into a pile of stuff that’s ready to go back in/on the engine when the engine is ready. I’m also getting the casings spotless and polishing/flattening all the mating surfaces. I’m going to do the piston and barrel too, but not yet sure exactly what to do with those.

I’ve already started a list for more ordering, probably after everything has been checked over. I think the magnetic plugs are a very sensible idea, so I’ll find £15 for those; found them at Wasp, who I rate, but will shop around first though. If I have made a mistake with bearings (which I haven’t) then I’ll go to this ‘Simply Bearings’; could have saved a few quid there, and it sounds like I’d have got answers to my questions, which neither Glasgow Lambretta or SIP managed to answer. Had a very quick look at SB website; looks good.

My Dremel arrived today, so that should give you a laugh when I have a go with it – going to find something to practice on first though. If it works well I might have a little go at the carb box too (for the SI24/24 onto my engine (big round to little oval); it was suggested I do it before, but I didn’t fancy the job at the time – bit more ambitious now).

That’s where I’m at with it; next few evenings quietly, methodically, thoroughly going through the stuff that’s going back in, getting it all ready. Oh, and watching Sausage – I’m sick of that DVD’s intro music now!

[partanen]

May 11, 2014 8:23:25 GMT sime66 said:

Which bearing is this? Driveshaft?

I wonder why it's sealed. It should be lubricated by gear oil? Now it is not.

I noticed that Sip offers sealed bearings for driveshaft. I just don't get it why.

[sime66]

That’s the driveshaft, hub-side, it’s a 1983 Engine.
I have sealed bearing and a seal on the outside of the motor, I know some do not have that arrangement; they have an internal seal and an external dust cover, I believe. Why? – I do not know, I think it is the age of the scooter. You can remove the seals, but I imagine they’re there for a reason. (To keep the sh*te out?)
I have far too little knowledge to assume that what I have is incorrect, so I am just replacing like-for-like. I did my best to get the correct bearing set from SIP, based on the model, age, and engine number, and I hope I’ve got it right. That’s all I know on the subject.

[pxguru]

I had a new 1983 PX it too was a crossover model. Had the autolube engine, lower gearing but had the old single oil seal and open drive shaft bearing. It had PE styling and headset with the key in the top but square light switches. Was a real Friday afternoon special. Keep what you have and change like for like. I have never seen a sealed bearing leaking oil into the back brake!

[vespasco]

Bearings come in many varities, with or without seals incorporated.
Some people, including me, buy the sealed versions of the (external) rear hub bearing but take off the inner seal so as to allow full lubrication, leaving the outer seal on for added protection.
So long as the bearing spec is the same dimension/tolerance you'll be fine.
does the '83 model have the internal bearing? I guess it does from the pic!!!! If you're replacing like for like!!! Off the top of my head i thought it was later but obviously wrong?!
Nik knows the px range history, im sure he'll soon explain when the change over was

[sime66]

Vespasco,
I was just trying to answer partanen, mainly by telling him I wasn't sure, but just trying to copy what was there, which is a sealed internal bearing, and external seal. Interesting you say about removing the inner seal; I've seen that too. what I have there may not be what was originally there either. I don't really mind as long as bearing and seal both do their jobs! If what I've got ordered looks the same and fits, I'll be happy. There a few mongrels around about the same age as mine and pxguru's old one. Don't care really; just want to ride it for a change..............

[partanen]

I would understand if it was sealed only one side. So gear oil would lubricate it, and outer seal would prevent dirt entering the bearing in case that shaft seal fails.

Maybe this is on of those times when italians amazes me. Last time they did it when I realised that Cosa clutch doesn't need washer under the nut. Flange nut and cog gear between crankshaft and clutch is enough. Better not tighten it more than 40-45 Nm though. Earlier models may differ and I don't know a lot about them.

[vespasco]

The bearing with a seal both sides is fine.
They're lubed for life . or er!
The advantages are they will stay clean longer - no dirty engine oil! But i still take off my inner seal!?

I think i missed something there
as the cosa clutch does need a washer!!
Like, almost every nut needs a washer in similar conditions. They absorb quite a lot of force/movement and as such help keep nuts locked tight and under tension. Especially ones like the ' wavy' cosa clutch spring washer.

[sime66]

The Cosa nut debate is going round in circles, and I'm not playing anymore!
I did look for an exploded view of the cosa like the one for Mk1, but it only details the difference within the clutch, not the fixing.
I watched Sausage earlier this evening, and he uses just a 'Special Clutch Nut' (flanged nut, without washer), Haynes shows a Mk1, so doesn't help..
But before I leave it, I'll explain why I think there is so much confusion:
This is just for Cosa; forget Mk1, castle nonsense -
There are two types of cosa Nut; they are a Flanged nut and the cosa nut, which I think is the self-locking jobby.
There are two types of washer (rejecting the Nordlock option for simplicity); they are the wavy washer and the serrated washer.
I think the cosa nut goes with the wavy washer.
The what, why and when of which others may or may not go with each the other or neither or something else is something I've given up trying to get an answer to because everyone has a different answer, and I think the debate is adding to the confusion.
My solution to this is to opt out of this particular subject and just go,
Cosa nut and Wavy washer.
I'm sure some are going flanged nut and serrated washer. (for example Twisted Rods)
It seems some are also going just flanged nut without washer. (Including Sausage).
Perhaps someone would like to start a thread!

Regarding hub bearings:
I have the old bearing, recently renewed when I had my crux done at the end of last year. The one taken out was an open bearing, but the one used to replace it is the one you see in my photo. I believe the chap that did the work for me thought the sealed bearing was an improvement to the original. But as I said earlier, I am past caring, and really just want to go for a nice ride down the seaside.

[vespasco]

Hahaha !
Sorry. I didnt see the 'no washer' debate. I was speaking generally.

Buy us a stick of rock when you get there.
Hope it all works out for you