Engine Out Before Breakfast

[sime66]

More Later, got to go and tidy up and have a bacon sandwich.............

[bryno]

Nice one!

Exhaust bolt out and back in frame by lunch

[sime66]

Still no breakfast - tidied up, but got my hands dirty again.
Did get the captive nut and exhaust off though, so now seriously looking at a stud that I'm going to come to hate over the next few days. (See final picture).
But before that some pics as I went along....

(Tried drilling in situ; bit half-hearted, gave up quickly and decided to get stuck in:

Going to try this link for slideshow
s1290.photobucket.com/user/sime6954/slideshow/Engine%20Removal

That seems to work, anyway that's history now; the business is this little rooster:



There is a good amount of only slightly damaged, clean thread, but the shaft is well and truly solid. I had a quick go at double-nutting it, but didn't want to shear it off in case it is useful.
Every opportunity I get I'm soaking the shaft, whilst I have a think about how best to attack it.

I'd have to buy stuff for heat and freezing, which I don't mind doing if it's likely to work.
I'd have to buy some Plus Gas, which I don't mind doing if it's likely to work. (Thanks for your message Kru - I have the screw extractors to try; couldn't really get a pilot going in-situ this morning, so haven't tried them)

I've got LH drill, extractors, WD40, and assorted hammers.
I've got my new best friend with big tools.

Now I really am going to stop and have a think over breakfast..............

[rab]

use fire get it glowing then try get it out

[kru251]

Good job! Plus Gas and some blow torch heat plus Mole grips will sort that just fine!!!!
Well on way now......

[sbwnik]

I'd just stop buggering about, get it to the machine shop and let them do it. It'll be sorted in half an hour that way. Then get a 10mm drill and open the hole up slightly to discourage the same happening again

[pxguru]

You have probably got it out by now but if you haven't yet, then do you know that the bolt hole breaks through the aluminum into the swing arm. If you oil up the engine mount rubber it will pop out with a bit of leverage then you will be able to attack it from the inside too and it won't stand a chance!

[joey]

Bit of heat (heat gun not blow torch,) plenty of WD40, a pair of stilsons (better than mole grips,) a cup of tea and lots of swearing and it'll eventually come out.

[sime66]

Thanks everyone.
Can't get Plus Gas or blow torch today anyway. Tried a few things as I go, no progress to report yet, stilsons/molegrips (the big tool I have here for plumbing?) just chewing it up (need heat). Sawing it off flush and drilling from the easy side does appeal, especially as the arm is hollow (thanks pxguru).
If I’m still ‘buggering about’ I’ll take it in Tues/Weds, which is the first time I’m free.
I’m in no hurry now; got to order loads of stuff before replacing engine anyway; new exhaust is coming Tuesday, but also cables, gaskets, oil, grease etc…………..getting it all together before I start.
I’m happy to have got it out, checked and cleaned all the bits and pieces up, hopefully done no damage, and I’m fairly confident about putting it all back. Going to do the rear brake too. Ought to do some rust treatment whilst it’s all exposed, but wanted drier weather really. Was going to check the shock anyway before this happened.
Finances dictate how much of it I tackle now; it’s been an expensive twelve months –
(rings, clutch, cruciform selector rod & bearings, carb, stator, CDI, and now this lot.)
It ain’t a race – I’m learning as I go, and I’m happy with the job so far, and that I’m doing it myself now.
Perhaps next Saturday I’ll be putting it back together.
I’m very grateful for all the advice.
Cheers chaps.

I think heat is the key to it; Do I heat just the arm? Gentle, or 'glowing'? (rab) - I have no experience of this, and I don't want to c**k it up. I suppose the engine mount rubbers have to come out first?
(just been watching a bloke blasting it with oxyacetylene then getting wax in before whacking and twisting it) All looks a bit scary to me.

Couple of other things:
. Anyone know source of a s/s bolt with a pointy end?
. What's a half decent, but not too pricey just-for-the-sake-of-it, rear shock for a big bloke, with the occasional heavy weekend load too?

[henri]

always amazed that piaggio found a way to do the impossible ,to weld ali an steel together,all it needed was heat,salty water an time ,the cornish cow-sh*t is a optional extra .reckon that bolts days/hours are numbered .as engines out an ya can go to town on it i wouldnt mess about ,go see the guy with big boy toys an drill that sucker.shouldnt cost more than a pint or 2 ,an if he's up for it on a sunday you could be riding by tonight .while he's busy you can take the chance to rust cure an paint inside the wheel well an engine surround whilst its easyier access.
an take the opportunity to oil the bottom of ya cables ,either a blast of wd40 up em,or old-skool plasticine funnel an drips of oil down em .dont get carried away with it tho an end up with a vespa based jigsaw an a "to-do list" yards long ,thats my trick,i start a little job an start thinking "while i'm there i might aswell do this/that aswell an end up turning a 10 minute job into a all-dayer.
an whats this stopping for breakfast thing,a spanner in one hand butty in other,strong coffee/tobacco/language an crack on, Henri
you can put a pointy end on the bolt with a grinder or file,run a nut on first so it sorts the thread out after you've pointed it,but it dont have to be pointed thats just to make it easyier to start in the captive nut.an you heat the ali carefully ,it wont glow red like steel but melt .its hard to judge when ali's going from hard to molten an its at a much lower temp than steel,thats why welding it is so tricky .if you can get 1 a heat gun is the safer option ,with a blow torch keep the flame moving all around the bolt hole ,your aiming to heat/expand the ali but not the bolt.i wouldnt use oxy/acetelene myself as the flame is too fierce an could easy damage the casing .

[rab]

get it a nice red colour around the offending stud try not to get the stud as hot ie don't aim at it go around it .it should give you enough expansion to unscrew the stud it will still be a bitch but as soon as you have movement the bugger will come out and you save the inner thread so no need for re tapping or helicoil
 DONT cool it back down with water let it cool in its own time

[joey]

Rab, read above kid............... ali doesn't glow red, by the time you've got it to the temperature that steel glows red ali has already melted.

[sime66]

I'm seeing two strong votes for bloke with big tools.
It's a bit of a cop out, but I'm leaning towards that too - saw it off and drill it out dreckly, me 'ansome; do a proper job and here's some cider for your trouble.

The art of heat and controlled force might have to wait for another time.
(You've thrown me a bit too Rab, I thought the bolt pushed through the swingarm and screwed into the captive nut; are you saying that the swingarm is threaded? Are you sure? I read it earlier in the first thread (nik & bryno) that's true for older Vespas, but not Ps?)

Henri, It's only the brake cable to be renewed because it was so frayed, and I've removed, cleaned and oiled up all the little adjusters and bits for everything on the engine, and I'll do the cables, so it'll all be good and ready.
(There's bits on that engine I'd never seen before under all the muck).
The shock, brake shoes and rust treatment were on this years to do list, so I'm just pondering what of it to do now.
My tyres were on the list too, but because the bleedin' scooters been broken so much lately, they've passed my inspection and will be OK past MOT and until winter, so that saved a bit.

Whilst writing I saw your note pop up; thanks joey - that's why I needed to be careful , and I think you've made my mind up to visit The Man

[rab]

oh ye sorry dident read it properly don't use fire lol

[sime66]

LOL, no harm done Mate.

[rab]

its ally drill it out re tap or drill out sleeve and re tap

[sime66]

You're still convinced it's threaded - don't answer that.

[henri]

early vespas (rod models '50's)where threaded in the swinging arm ,havent seen it on vba,vbb,vbc or later p range vespas ,it was a daft idea that piaggio dropped .when bryno mentioned it i think he was thinking of his early vba .
your best concentrating on the rust treatment an leaving the shock for another day ,its a tank out job,an its easyier cracking off the hub nut with engine in frame to do the shoes .its not a cop-out to get the drilling done right by somebody else ,just the most straight forward ,job done-scoot back on road ,pulling them apart is the fun for me but most of you do insist on riding the beggars .dont really do all that sunshine an wide open spaces ,prefer my dark/dingy/cosy shed meself . H

[sime66]

The threaded swing arm subject was already covered by you, bryno and nik, and I was clear on it; that’s why we thought it might push through with The Big Hammer once captive nut was off. It was only Rab on Sunday that caused me to question it, but I think he had a bad day; I was just pulling his leg really. (Sorry Rab)
The engine is going to the shop as soon as I get a free moment, that’s decided; I’ve done all I can with it.
I cracked the nut on the hub before removing the engine (wise to that one), but left it on to protect it in case it went to the shop.
As far as shed-work is concerned, to be really honest I totally failed to appreciate how much repair and maintenance there would be, and how little trouble-free riding I’d get out of it. I do want to be out playing in the sunshine riding the beggar; this dirty-hands malarkey is something I’ve come to accept to achieve the good times. I’m doing much more involved work than I expected to do, in my garden not shed, but it feels good to be able, especially as now I know what’s getting done for my money.
It’s been raining all weekend; I haven’t looked at shock or rust, I was just thinking ahead, not sure doing rust in rain is going to happen, but while I’ve got no engine and exhaust in the way…..? Right now I’m aiming for back on road for Easter, we’ll see what gets done. I’ll just get a torch up there when I get time and assess it. It’s mainly only weekend work.
One consolation is that the trade fair in Bovey Tracey was cancelled due to poor weather, so I have another chance of being ready in time for that later in April.
It's all in hand.

[bryno]

Apr 7, 2014 8:53:23 GMT henri said:

early vespas (rod models '50's)where threaded in the swinging arm ,havent seen it on vba,vbb,vbc or later p range vespas ,it was a daft idea that piaggio dropped .when bryno mentioned it i think he was thinking of his early vba .
your best concentrating on the rust treatment an leaving the shock for another day ,its a tank out job,an its easyier cracking off the hub nut with engine in frame to do the shoes .its not a cop-out to get the drilling done right by somebody else ,just the most straight forward ,job done-scoot back on road ,pulling them apart is the fun for me but most of you do insist on riding the beggars .dont really do all that sunshine an wide open spaces ,prefer my dark/dingy/cosy shed meself . H

Yeh, I mentioned that 'classics' were threaded which makes the problem even worse, my VBA and sportique engines were so I'd presume all the 8" wheeled models were same..

I know you're on it anyway, but if you do go for an SS repacement bolt as suggested by someone, must use copper grease on that, SS in alloy is a worse combination than plain steel in alloy, it needs copper grease or the 2 will fuse together.. apparently

[sime66]

Yep, doing s/s bolt and copper grease, and a regular twist as routine maintenance to keep it free.
I did buy the Piaggio (tapered) one first, so spoilt for choice.

[henri]

just checked the cases an whole engines in my shed an scoots in garage , the 62 douglas sportique with piaggio casting marks is a threaded blind hole ,the 65 vbb with piaggio cases is a hole right through as is the 62 vbb with baja 2 port cases, tho the vbb's look like the've been drilled later after the threads stripped. my 76 super is a unthreaded hole .seems if original exhaust was meant to have 1 bracket/fixing its a threaded blind hole an if 2 brackets an a caged nut just a hole. bryno's right about using copper grease with st/steel ,the electrolytic/galvanic action of steel an ali plus water still happens with st/steel an is worse than plain steel with low grade (3-4)stainless, marine grade (7-8)is better ,but the ali having a lower atomic number (dont ask,i aint got a clue)means it will corrode an fur up.using galvanised bolts doesnt help either,zinc having a higher atomic number (still clueless)than ali .use to work in a landy garage an saw what happened when people replaced rusty body mount bolts with galvanised,an all the holes in ali panels got ate away . H

[sime66]

That's quite a shed, henri!
Good info on s/s too, cheers.

[rab]

im no were near an expert on vespas and with most things on them im still learning i can only call on past experience from repairing cars and building motor bikes witch are totally different beasts body wise to a vespa although the basics are the same. i put my two pennys in if im wrong i always stand corrected and learn if im wrong.80% of the time im right the other 20% you guys are teaching me as i read and f+++k up lol

[henri]

ive said it before "scoots,weve all got a opinion,but what if were all wrong", ive been at scoots,cars,bikes since was little an still make mistakes an get it wrong ,so long as like rab i own up an tell ,there's no harm done an everybody else can learn from my mistakes an have a giggle .was told by a old-boy once "the guy who thinks he knows it all aint worth asking" ,cept it came out with rude words an a cloud of capstan full strenth ,filterless of course.H

[sime66]

Totally agree, only good intentions, no harm done, excellent group and a really good atmosphere on this forum; everyone’s learning and sharing – keep up the good flow of info and experience; it’s priceless.

[rab]

I don't have a problem m8 you along with others of more experience are always helpfull if a came across as otherwise it wasent intentional

[henri]

just to be clear sime66 ,only the sportique is in shed as its only 6x8',an its only half mine(scoot notshed) ,other half is owned by guy who's 65vbb2t is in my garage for welding ,my vbb 62 is in dads garage for "major welding",my super an missus's cosa also share garage with same mates lam-chop we built last year an other mates xt600 flatracker i just finished building/mot.aswell as my bsa c15 i now call either the E-bitsa as its mostly honda cb250 or xl250 bits i got cheap of e-bay or "The Bas***D" if its tried to kill me again .oh an nearly forgot my ld frame/auto engine back-burner project lurks in there aswell.
right,now ive finished bragging ,does anybody know a good therapist/counselor for advanced "sheditist" as its getting out of hand ,ive 2 garages 3 sheds an various lofts /cupboards/piles an still run out of space .doesnt help that ive also got half a 40 year old car in spares for missus run-about ,an honestly apart from daily distance hack(xj600)an the Bast**d (it tried again yesterday)dont try an count how many bikes or parts thereof as it gets confusing/embarrising ,
AaaHHHH ,that feels better ,confession is good for the soul ,as the catholics say, tho reading it back does make me worry about my "hobby". H

[sime66]

Blimey, henri! I lost count even reading that twice. I don’t think I’ll ever be a committed shed-dweller; I like to ride, and I’m just doing what’s needed to keep it on the road, but like any addiction you don’t realise until it’s too late, and recovery is a long and painful process.
Fortunately I have no carpets at the moment in my flat, so it’s temporarily doubling up as a shed. There is no one to nag me that the living room looks like a shed and the kitchen looks like a workshop. (Just cleaned the engine on the draining board, and gave the new exhaust an extra coat of paint).
A lovely SIP Road 2 arrived yesterday, I took my engine to Man-with-Tools this morning, I’m waiting for the ‘phone call to collect it, so this weekend I’ll be putting it all back together. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
And the weather is looking good for next week – ahh, all’s well; time to put the tools down and ride.

[rab]

Sorry henri your shed problem is terminal lol your an official shed hoarder